Mega Merged: Qantas Long Haul Cabin Crew Eba8 Negotiations
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It's all about me !
We have not been "painted into a corner". The FAAA has handed us a life line that gives us a few more years before the hordes of cheap "B" scale crew overrun the fort and scalp us all ! Regardless of outcome, this will happen, "they will take no prisoners" !
Regarding "It's all about me", in 18 months, I'll be 55 with 30 years flying. EBA8 gives me a modicum of dignity for my last couple of years. I am sure there are many crew in a similar situation or getting close to it. Plus, with Part Time for all categories, it will make life more flexible.
For the junior crew with 8 to 10 years in LH, at least they are guaranteed a minimum 5 or even more years with current conditions and an improvement in their trips and rosters.
Regardless of the $3000 bribe, this is a positive outcome for all crew and a gentle introduction to the "brave new world" that GD and Qantas has planned for future generations of Cabin Crew.
Regarding "It's all about me", in 18 months, I'll be 55 with 30 years flying. EBA8 gives me a modicum of dignity for my last couple of years. I am sure there are many crew in a similar situation or getting close to it. Plus, with Part Time for all categories, it will make life more flexible.
For the junior crew with 8 to 10 years in LH, at least they are guaranteed a minimum 5 or even more years with current conditions and an improvement in their trips and rosters.
Regardless of the $3000 bribe, this is a positive outcome for all crew and a gentle introduction to the "brave new world" that GD and Qantas has planned for future generations of Cabin Crew.
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Rumours of our death seem 2 have been premature
I have been flying for almost 15yrs and every EBA in that time was going to be the death of us........ here we have a document which gives more certainty than we've ever had in this process before and some just re-jig the mantra. Instead of our death being 2yrs from the signing it'll be 5yrs.....even thats an improvement! As for the Labor Gov being somehow a factor in this, well thats so naive its not worth a comment. Can you quote me one word from this Gov that would make this outcome any different or suggest we go back to the table?
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What we expected...What we Got
Most of us expected Crap...far worse than what we got.
No one wanted to fly on the A380...no one will.
We got our regional flying back...at a price.
SIN,HKG and BKK all fly onto somewhere else and the changed slip formula may affect slips here.There are 13 hour slips in HKG already.
Our wages are untouched.
It will take several years before all the A380s arrive and begin to have an impact on our flying...particularly the states.
New destinations like South America couldnt justify the use of the big suckers.744s still have a lot of cycles left before they are put out to pasture.
We get to fly the 787s on our terms,conditions and remuneration.
The 743s will retire..good riddance.
On balance ist better than most of us expected.
The alternative is bleak.
Partime for eveyone in every category..increased mat leave.
Nothing lasts forever ...we've had a great run...and there is still awhile to run yet.
Oh, and my bet....VRs twice a year for the next 5 years.
No one wanted to fly on the A380...no one will.
We got our regional flying back...at a price.
SIN,HKG and BKK all fly onto somewhere else and the changed slip formula may affect slips here.There are 13 hour slips in HKG already.
Our wages are untouched.
It will take several years before all the A380s arrive and begin to have an impact on our flying...particularly the states.
New destinations like South America couldnt justify the use of the big suckers.744s still have a lot of cycles left before they are put out to pasture.
We get to fly the 787s on our terms,conditions and remuneration.
The 743s will retire..good riddance.
On balance ist better than most of us expected.
The alternative is bleak.
Partime for eveyone in every category..increased mat leave.
Nothing lasts forever ...we've had a great run...and there is still awhile to run yet.
Oh, and my bet....VRs twice a year for the next 5 years.
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argue and discuss all you want the fact is the EBA will be voted up!
It has flaws but it guarantees our future for at least 5 years.
At the membership meetings the FAAA officials asked us about a B scale for new crew and it was overwhelmingly voted up!
The FAAA then proceeded to get us the best they could, they have delivered.
Although I'm suspicious of QF and that management I have no choice like everyone else but to vote on this.
Anyway the "new" ones can fight their own battles..... believe me generation "y" can certainly handle themselves!
Management have no idea how tough its going to be to discipline that lot! their conditions will improve, the bidding system will be introduced for them, it will take time but it will happen.
It has flaws but it guarantees our future for at least 5 years.
At the membership meetings the FAAA officials asked us about a B scale for new crew and it was overwhelmingly voted up!
The FAAA then proceeded to get us the best they could, they have delivered.
Although I'm suspicious of QF and that management I have no choice like everyone else but to vote on this.
Anyway the "new" ones can fight their own battles..... believe me generation "y" can certainly handle themselves!
Management have no idea how tough its going to be to discipline that lot! their conditions will improve, the bidding system will be introduced for them, it will take time but it will happen.
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Nice to hear some sensible comments from cartexchange. (maybe because he made it out of the brasco into crewrest! 
The changed slip formula will not affect slips where you go onto somewhere else (if you are referring to LHR or FRA or LAX)
If a regional pattern includes a port outside the 3 hour time zone limit, the formula reverts to our original 1 slip in first 3 to be at least 46.
Source: the mouth of Michael Mijatov
P.S I don't want to hear it Lobe, this is all I see of your posts : This message is hidden because lowerlobe is on your ignore list.
Originally Posted by packrat
SIN,HKG and BKK all fly onto somewhere else and the changed slip formula may affect slips here
If a regional pattern includes a port outside the 3 hour time zone limit, the formula reverts to our original 1 slip in first 3 to be at least 46.
Source: the mouth of Michael Mijatov
P.S I don't want to hear it Lobe, this is all I see of your posts : This message is hidden because lowerlobe is on your ignore list.
Last edited by twiggs; 6th Dec 2007 at 05:43. Reason: Source
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Originally posted by twiggs The changed slip formula will not affect slips where you go onto somewhere else
P.S I don't want to hear it Lobe, this is all I see of your posts : This message is hidden because lowerlobe is on your ignore list.
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Back to the eba and I can't see what we can do.The boys have stitched this up and like it or lump it I can't see how we cold change it.
It annoys me that we have agreed to devalue our jobs and before I get the usual reply it is the truth.
The company told us we are too expensive and the union said the same thing and then said OK if you don't touch us you can hire all new crew at discount rates.
Thats what I meant by us being painted into a corner.I don't really like the idea of a b scale but s/h started this mess and now our union is going along with the show.
The problem is that all the senior crew will go for it because it gives them 5 years to finish up and the juniors will think it's great to see movement.
VR packages will be the order of the day as the company wants to get rid of the 'expensive crew'
The other thing that annoys me is that Dixon and friends are getting away with it once again.
It annoys me that we have agreed to devalue our jobs and before I get the usual reply it is the truth.
The company told us we are too expensive and the union said the same thing and then said OK if you don't touch us you can hire all new crew at discount rates.
Thats what I meant by us being painted into a corner.I don't really like the idea of a b scale but s/h started this mess and now our union is going along with the show.
The problem is that all the senior crew will go for it because it gives them 5 years to finish up and the juniors will think it's great to see movement.
VR packages will be the order of the day as the company wants to get rid of the 'expensive crew'
The other thing that annoys me is that Dixon and friends are getting away with it once again.
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there are of
course some issues which need a bit of tiding up.
regional flying needs an fatigue based approach otherwise its open to abuse. we all know who wont hesitate to use all means available (the excuse is going to be carmen produces these patterns) ,if they get the go-ahead. the limit of slips less then lets say 18 hours MUST be a maximum of 2. this would stop stupid patterns (6 day)domestic casuals do to get entrenched. this can easily being build into the jeppesen rostering system.
guaranteed access of 20% on the A380 and other new wide bodied aircraft.
lets assume till the end of 2010 there are 8 A380. on 18 crew thats 4 guaranteed LH slots x 10 = 40 slots. not much really.
Boeing 787-900 does not arrive until late2010/2011. once again for a 250 seat aircraft with 8 crew thats 2 crew per aircraft. and so on
please feel free if i have anything wrong on this. i have not been to the meeting yet but this is my current understanding of the deal.
i understand the A380 deal involves a set rate for overtime after 12 hours.
were are you going to get your hours from with 4 aircraft in the first year if you sign up to this exclusive deal?
regional flying needs an fatigue based approach otherwise its open to abuse. we all know who wont hesitate to use all means available (the excuse is going to be carmen produces these patterns) ,if they get the go-ahead. the limit of slips less then lets say 18 hours MUST be a maximum of 2. this would stop stupid patterns (6 day)domestic casuals do to get entrenched. this can easily being build into the jeppesen rostering system.
guaranteed access of 20% on the A380 and other new wide bodied aircraft.
lets assume till the end of 2010 there are 8 A380. on 18 crew thats 4 guaranteed LH slots x 10 = 40 slots. not much really.
Boeing 787-900 does not arrive until late2010/2011. once again for a 250 seat aircraft with 8 crew thats 2 crew per aircraft. and so on
please feel free if i have anything wrong on this. i have not been to the meeting yet but this is my current understanding of the deal.
i understand the A380 deal involves a set rate for overtime after 12 hours.
were are you going to get your hours from with 4 aircraft in the first year if you sign up to this exclusive deal?
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Some good idea's there mrpaxing and I'm sure that others will come up with some too.
The question is will the union boys be prepared to listen and go to the company with some changes or will they say take it or leave it.
The question is will the union boys be prepared to listen and go to the company with some changes or will they say take it or leave it.
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Deal or No Deal?
There are interesting points of view about EBA8 on the following website
http://tuf07 (followed by ******** dot com)
please take the time to check it out.
There are interesting points of view about EBA8 on the following website
http://tuf07 (followed by ******** dot com)
please take the time to check it out.
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This agreement has allowed QF to legally transfer a minimum of 69% of international flying on the A330 to the short haul division. At the present time the long haul division is only achieving approxiamately 15% of the A330 international flying. This agreement was signed by Michael Mijatov.
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I thought I had cleared up some of these misunderstandings already. Ok, here we go again...
Look, there might be a few crappy trips out there, but the regional slipping formula at least states that there must be at least 50 hours worth of slips in the first 3 slips. So it is not possible to slip us for three consecutive 12 hour slips, nor even 3 consecutive 15 hour slips. Shorthaul are actually doing crappy stuff like that now. They have no slipping formula at all.
No, you have misunderstood this. You are correct about 20/80 on the Airbus A380. But ALL OTHER NEW WIDE-BODIED INTERNATIONAL aircraft will be flown by us - that's ALL of us - current crew and new starters. For all aircraft except for the A380, we will be one pool of crew.
Also, your calculations on working out how many crew will be needed on the Airbus A380 are totally incorrect. To keep one 747 flying there needs to be something like 100-150 crew. For the Airbus, it will be even more. I don't know the exact numbers because I am not an expert, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that you need at least 3 to 4 times the crew complement to keep the aircraft going.
guaranteed access of 20% on the A380 and other new wide bodied aircraft.
lets assume till the end of 2010 there are 8 A380. on 18 crew thats 4 guaranteed LH slots x 10 = 40 slots. not much really.
Boeing 787-900 does not arrive until late2010/2011. once again for a 250 seat aircraft with 8 crew thats 2 crew per aircraft.
lets assume till the end of 2010 there are 8 A380. on 18 crew thats 4 guaranteed LH slots x 10 = 40 slots. not much really.
Boeing 787-900 does not arrive until late2010/2011. once again for a 250 seat aircraft with 8 crew thats 2 crew per aircraft.
Also, your calculations on working out how many crew will be needed on the Airbus A380 are totally incorrect. To keep one 747 flying there needs to be something like 100-150 crew. For the Airbus, it will be even more. I don't know the exact numbers because I am not an expert, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that you need at least 3 to 4 times the crew complement to keep the aircraft going.
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Just in relation to the current Divisional flying split with Short haul.
The old guard of the FAAA that did EBA 6 failed to get any access at all to the a330 in their last EBA of 2003. Having said that, Mijatov and Smedley campaigned heavily against the EBA for that reason and a number of others. Notwithstanding their opposition using their own funds and their "names" rather than anonymously, the EBA was voted up by crew by about 53%.
After that Mijatov Smedley and Reed negotiated 30% of regional flying for long haul crew 25% for short haul crew and 45% that the company could flex. A significant imprivement on 0% from EBA 6.
Since then the 45% that the company could lflex has gone to short haul simply because of 140 hours per month, 25% less pay and no slipping formula.
In this EBA we get the 45% plus our 30% guaranteed for long Haul crew which represents a return of our traditional flying.
In order to secure that significant growth for our division the new entry conditions and flexibility in a new Regional Slipping formula has delivered it back to long Haul.
Even so short haul would still be more productive from some perspective but the overall gain for Qantas and Long Haul crew is a good one
I hope that answers the question on regional Flying.
Btw the 787-900 will be the aircraft that replaces the A330 on the regional flying and it is 100% ours as a result of this EBA8.... If we were doing the regional flying when it arrived we wouldnt have got it
The old guard of the FAAA that did EBA 6 failed to get any access at all to the a330 in their last EBA of 2003. Having said that, Mijatov and Smedley campaigned heavily against the EBA for that reason and a number of others. Notwithstanding their opposition using their own funds and their "names" rather than anonymously, the EBA was voted up by crew by about 53%.
After that Mijatov Smedley and Reed negotiated 30% of regional flying for long haul crew 25% for short haul crew and 45% that the company could flex. A significant imprivement on 0% from EBA 6.
Since then the 45% that the company could lflex has gone to short haul simply because of 140 hours per month, 25% less pay and no slipping formula.
In this EBA we get the 45% plus our 30% guaranteed for long Haul crew which represents a return of our traditional flying.
In order to secure that significant growth for our division the new entry conditions and flexibility in a new Regional Slipping formula has delivered it back to long Haul.
Even so short haul would still be more productive from some perspective but the overall gain for Qantas and Long Haul crew is a good one
I hope that answers the question on regional Flying.
Btw the 787-900 will be the aircraft that replaces the A330 on the regional flying and it is 100% ours as a result of this EBA8.... If we were doing the regional flying when it arrived we wouldnt have got it
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last sentence of my previous post should read..if we were not doing the Regional flying when the 787 arrives then we wouldnt have got it.
Geting the regional flying back was essential in getting the 787 as well as the new destinations it will fly to
Geting the regional flying back was essential in getting the 787 as well as the new destinations it will fly to
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A Fish Always Rots From The Head Down!
Very weird that QF is bribing us with a 3 grand bonus to get this through... think about it folks, Dixson 
wants to hire b scale to out number us for EBA9 which will send us down the river and at the same time suit the b-scalers, ie (lower the hours down from 230 to 210 which will increase our hours) that is one of several examples. Voting yes will leave us very vulnerable in five years time. As it has been said in other blogs this EBA8 will suit the seniors that plan to leave in the next five years, leaving us out numbered with b scalers. GET IT? So don't be stupid, VOTE NO, also very strange how defensive Mitchatov
was in regards to the reference that he is accepting a kick-back from Qantas in his overstated message. (If it was me and it wasn't true, I would have just left it) Mitchatov really is pushing this EBA8 that seems like he didn't really negotiate too much on, as he was speaking another language before the election. It looks too transparent. Remember the LAX dispensation, he pushed us to say yes and see what happened.
wants to hire b scale to out number us for EBA9 which will send us down the river and at the same time suit the b-scalers, ie (lower the hours down from 230 to 210 which will increase our hours) that is one of several examples. Voting yes will leave us very vulnerable in five years time. As it has been said in other blogs this EBA8 will suit the seniors that plan to leave in the next five years, leaving us out numbered with b scalers. GET IT? So don't be stupid, VOTE NO, also very strange how defensive Mitchatov was in regards to the reference that he is accepting a kick-back from Qantas in his overstated message. (If it was me and it wasn't true, I would have just left it) Mitchatov really is pushing this EBA8 that seems like he didn't really negotiate too much on, as he was speaking another language before the election. It looks too transparent. Remember the LAX dispensation, he pushed us to say yes and see what happened.
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crew bonker
well what is your bright idea then?
what do you want us to do?
vote us out of a job?
its that simple, accept this EBA or get out!
MM and SR have delivered a good eba!
go to the union meetings and listen.
well what is your bright idea then?
what do you want us to do?
vote us out of a job?
its that simple, accept this EBA or get out!
MM and SR have delivered a good eba!
go to the union meetings and listen.