perth qantas engineering

[Anulus Filler]

Hi there Sobby.

Did you read the previous transcripts? How often did you cringe with embarrassment at the ineptitude of Purkvinas and his questions. Purkvinas was embarrassing the ALAEA and we are the ALAEA.

I don't know which transcripts you were reading, but the ones I read made the MLM in Perth look like a fool. In fact, Purkvinas had him doubting what he himself had mentioned in the prevous hearings under oath.( Not bad for $35/hr). Wondering what it cost Qf.

As for the car the ALAEA have given him, I hope they give him a Mercedes. At least he has given us all a bit of representation which certainly didn't exist from the previous executive.

Mr fixit

By the way any truth that a piece of sh!t from the east is over in Perth peddlin lies to the LAMEs again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes. Your'e right there. This parasite was M's carrier pidgeon. Just wondering if he was after a free holiday or M genuinely believed there was some hope in the 10.9

[The masked goatrider]

Tim, , I mean Sobast,

Cut and past one of the questions Mr P asked that made you cringe with embarrassment. You made the statement so come up with the goods you have the transcript.

[perdmm]

DMM and commission

As one of the perth DMM s I would like to say;
On behalf of most DMM s and Perth LAME's, we thank SP and the ALAEA for going to the commission on our behalf and congratulate their efforts.
This was not SP's private battle, This is what all us Perth guys (including DMM's) requested they do.

[acslame]

per dmm's

well boys this is it
WHERE DO YOU STAND?
The time for talk is over . the commissioner has spoken
will you support your boys like the mel int dmm's
or is it all about numero uno
a LOT of people are watching

[Anulus Filler]

Hear, 0 heavens, and give ear, 0 earth, for the 'THE VOICE' hath spoken.

[chemical alli]

cement head

so you have know decided to attack the perth lames, after failing with the eba post.i guess you are one bitter and twisted individual or ex lame who has risen to the dizzy heights. word of advice play in your own backyard and the neighbours dog wont bite.

great result from the exec and keep the pressure on,more support the perth guys then you realise

[The masked goatrider]

Still waiting for your reply sobast. Don't be shy I am sure M will be mighty proud of you when you can turn a loss for Qf in the court rooms into a positive.

[sobast]

My apologies Goatrooter, sorry, rider. I've deleted the file. I'll track a copy down and post some exerpts. But if you actually read the transcript where purkvinas questioned DH (with unbiased eyes), you would admit he was inept. I'm intrigued how you think the case was a win. The Perth guys are still on 8 hrs = QF win!?. All the union achieved was getting the 4 DMMs taken off 12 hr shifts. From memory, the survey showed 3 of the 4 wanted to stay on the 12 hr roster. Gee. That's a win? Lets see. 45? Perth guys put on 8hrs. 45 points to QF. 4 Perth DMMs taken off 12hrs. Union 4. QF wins 45 points to 4.
Also, why were acting DMMs surveyed by the union on whether tho stay on 12 hrs? No disrespect to the actors but they have no right to vote in that survey. It's not their permanent job.

Can someone actually explain to me what was wrong with the 4 on 4 off, 10.9 hr shift? I don't want all the bull. I really want to know what the problem was as I haven't heard the real story. Not just biased stuff from union reps like Anus filler.

[FCMC]

The Real Facts on Qantas Perth

Hopefully M and DH are reading this themselves or HR has flagged it for them.

M- For a guy that lives for Intelligent Space I dont see too much intelligence going on. Your major tactical error was using DH as your tool for change. He is too much of a Bully and Arrogant to manage the change you required in Perth. He has made too many mistakes and lies at the AIRC and you have covered for him too many times. You are also too reliant on your Lighthouse group. They have really led you down the garden path with this one. Your saving face at all cost attitude is also highly unprofessional. Everyone works out the truth in the end and it is simply more respectful to put up your hand and admit your wrong and get on with a fix. The Roster Committee you set up with 3 excellent guys had all the answers for you. We were very proud of them. They gave you the 1400-0200 nightshift to you on a silver platter. The previous manger JT tried it for years to cut the O/T requirement for the afternoon (1400-1800) but got nowhere. YOU JUST DIDN'T REALISE THIS. It was a major win for you and DH. M-YOU WILL NOT GET YOUR 10.9 SHIFT.
MOVE ON AND NEGOTIATE!

DH- Your definitely a smart guy but not for managing. How did you ever get that position. Your managing highly skilled people not factory workers.
What happened to talking to people, empathy, staying cool and controlled.
Your embarrassing sometimes, actually most times. You rarely say hello to us these days and when you do its only with a grunt. You make me not want to aspire to any management level at all. You have no leadership qualities or skills but you are skillful in getting yourself out of trouble.

Perth DMMS- 2 of you I am so disappointed in it almost makes me sick. You have simply prolonged our agony with your hero antics and shortcutting longterm policies & procedures to keep this silly shift going. It will take years for both of you to get any respect at all from the guys. SHAME SHAME SHAME. You will realise this one day once M moves on and his spell is broken. You have obviously been promised something but is it worth it?

The 2 other DMMs (1 I will not comment as I think hes OK-not sure yet) the other as posted on this thread is our shining light. His ethics, standards and people skills are so far ahead of any QF management I have ever seen. QF doesn't deserve him! Hes too good for that. Thankyou so much and its such a shame your the only one I can ever learn any management skills from.

Interstate fly in DMMs.- Guys get a grip. Do you think your respected at all. Do you think the DMM badge gives you respect. Granted most of you have seen the errors in your ways and gone back but that guy at the moment from BNE-MT your just unbelievably bad. We will have our day on you.

ALAEA- SP your just brilliant. Your recent win is pivotal, most just dont realise it yet-WELL DONE!!!!!! We are all so glad your looking after us. The PER reps as well are excellent.

PER LAMEs- except for Borat and the odd South African or two your all fantastic people to be with. Im personally surprised how we have all stood together so well and I now realise more than ever no one is going to give in. Its gone on too long now. We have shown its not a money issue by the big reductions in shift & O/T we have accepted but an ethical one where we wont be bullied into new conditions without negotiation and reasoning.
For everyone out there our only negotiation on the 10.9 from DH is "accept the 10.9 or the 8 hour will be implemented" thats it.
Please understand to lose approx $6000-8000 a year plus 12 Z days with nothing in return and all we get is the above statement. What would you do! There simply was no negotiation. Surely some things are worth fighting for. They were offered a 12 hr day 10.9 hr night as an 11th hour fix which had substantial savings for the company. Again no negotiation.

Now for the latest but nothing you dont know.
The 8 hour is a disaster. It was implemented as a tactic to get us on the 10.9 but supposedly cheaper than the 12.

We now have so many new Engineers on station to prop it up ive actually lost count. Lighthouse originally said 5. Well its at least almost triple that now and rising. Not too mention 2 planners on contract. What do they do again? Unable to acquit leave as they cant have to many off. An increase of S/Lames of 8 to 14. Triple the sick days and delays through the roof. Ask any pilot flying to PER. We have 74 classics delayed 3 hours for no licence coverage. Air NZ & MH delays due no licence on shift etc etc. SAFE was all the rage a year ago, well there hasn't been a meeting in 6 months. They used to be every month. We are now a second rate operation and certainly not the standard of the Engineers in PER. Now we have this NG guy come over and threaten to dump the contracts and sprout the 10.9 again. MR JM of QF HR clearly said at the AIRC hearing "We are not interested in extended hour rosters in PERTH" Now who's telling the Porkie Pie!


So there we have it a station that runs the worst it ever has with more Supervision than ever, more sick leave than ever, up to 18 more people and unable to serve its customers let alone the core Airline. M- please get rid of the customers and quickly. It gives us another organisation to work at. Its clear now you have set us up in every way to fail. Dont prolong it. Shut us down now so we can move on. Its such a shame as you have such good people here. You picked the wrong station and the wrong manager.

[Anulus Filler]

Sobby

I'm intrigued how you think the case was a win. The Perth guys are still on 8 hrs = QF win!?. All the union achieved was getting the 4 DMMs taken off 12 hr shifts. From memory, the survey showed 3 of the 4 wanted to stay on the 12 hr roster. Gee. That's a win? Lets see. 45? Perth guys put on 8hrs. 45 points to QF. 4 Perth DMMs taken off 12hrs. Union 4. QF wins 45 points to 4.

Your ideology of using people as points would make me believe you to be one of the following:

1. A Q manager
2. An aspiring Q manager (Probably one of those sc@bs in Per/Flying to Per)
3. From the previous ALAEA executive.

There is little if no dividing line between these 3 groups of rabble. They as regarded as having a complete lack of morals and are thought of as the lowest of low.

Sobby, it certainly looked like this case was important to Qf. With all that legal circus they hired , it appeared that this was one case they didn't want to lose. But really, who do you think are the winners here? I definately can't call it one for Qf and its customers. Common sense definately has taken a walk out the back door. Qf gives us an unworkable roster which we are now getting used of. Melbourne next. Well done M. Great use of your (lack of) intelligent space. Throw out your strategy map and you could probably save your first million (albeit a bit too late now).

M and your comrades, what you take with force you will lose with force. No one is gaining at the moment. Forget your 10.9.... Treat it like an old boyfriend that caught you screwing around on him.

[Managers Perspective]

What a sad state of affairs.

Managers so far out of touch with their staff....

Staff so bitter that they would drag down their employer.....

To me there are no winners here, just survivors of a useless battle.

MP

[YesTAM]

I remember when the twelve hour shift was brought up at Ansett, I'd like to see if I understand if your twelve hour was the same, so I'll describe it for the benefit of non engineers, please correct me if I am wrong.

1. In the beginning there was the eight hour shift. The eight hour workday was sacrosanct. There were three shifts to get coverage.

2. Now because these are aircraft being worked on, there needs to be overlaps at the start and finish of each shift so that jobs don't get forgotten, it's about continuity.

3. With an eight hour shift, guys were making buckets of overtime - but most of that money was going straight to the treasurer as extra income tax. People were working very long hours for very little extra as they saw it.

4. So a bright LAME simply said "Lets work twelve hour shifts. Overtime does not then kick in until twelve hours elapsed. That means the company can get the overlaps necessary for safe maintenance without the company having to pay overtime - it saves the company money. Now we take home slightly less pay, but by working twelve hour shifts, we can have three day weekends and spend more time with our families. A win/win for company and staff." The only loser was the Federal Treasurer.

5. Now Abeles stomped on this idea big time at Ansett because it would have angered hawke and the union movement for whom the eight hour day and collective bargaining was sacrosanct. It sounds however that later Qantas adopted a similar sensible plan. Is this something like correct?

Now it sounds to me (and correct me if I'm wrong) that QF has underinvested in training LAMES, and has probably abused the twelve hour shift, reducing overlaps and piling on overtime.

So along comes the consultant and sez:

"hey, these AWA's are cool! Lets roll overtime and other allowances into an hourly rate. We pay these guys for eight hours. We make them hang around for five days a week, so no more long weekends, less LAMES required, and we can work them for as long as we like for no additional overtime payment. And of course over time, that "one single hourly rate" will not keep up with inflation, reducing our total costs as a percentage of sales."

Am I close? More hours of work and less pay?

[lordofthewings]

Like Perth, Adelaide was only given two scenarios, 10.9 hr shift or 8 hr..Luckily for Adelaide, DH in Perth made a c..t of himself and the focus was taken off Adelaide allowing them to negotiate the current 4on5 off 12hr roster..
Adelaide overtime is well up, so are sick days.Staff are having trouble getting leave.This roster will not last, unfortunately the guys and girls in Adelaide havent the balls to stand up and fight for what is right, and will eventually end up on the 10.9 hr roster that M wants...
$4000-$7000 is what the new roster in Adelaide has lost staff, with no gains.Purely greed driven to load managers with big fat bonuses before they move on to there next staff screwing campaign.
Scab DMM in Adelaide reported to have said on his arrival back to the city of churches, that the guys in Perth appreciated him coming over..Fu..en good one...
8 hr roster nationally would be interesting..

low

[The masked goatrider]

Lost the transcript? That would be right. Add it to all the cases you lost when you were on the Executive.

[splashman]

The AIRC decision brings 2 positives to all members.

All DMM's are looked at as members of the ALAEA. The company cannot rely on DMM's to cover manpower shortfalls. All DMM's should acknowledge that their pay and conditions of employment were and are still negotiated by the ALAEA for them. I hope we all remember our so called brothers who deserted the PER LAME's in their time of need.

We as a group can now withdraw from any extended roster in any port for no reason at all. A powerful negotiation tool for EBA's, also a foil for forced roster changes network wide.

All in all a great outcome, we showed we can stick together, we showed that all ports can be united as one. (Thanks to the perth guy's and girl.) We also know who amongst our membership would screw all others for browny point's from M.

A great outcome for we gained so much and lost nothing.

[FCMC]

Exactly Mr Splashman. You are so correct.Well said.

Love this statement
"We also know who amongst our membership would screw all others for browny point's from M."

Yes have seen a few of them but fortunately not too many.Borat!!!!!!!!!!

[splashman]

Thanks FCMC,

I think all members, including DMM's, should look past their noses and see that we, as members of the ALAEA, are stronger united than divided.
The ploy of placing a group of the membership, into conflict with the rest works, the company knows this and has used it effectively for many years.

I have heard, although unconfirmed, that at a recent meeting in BNE, DMM's were polled with the question " Would you be prepared to work 12 hr shifts if the LAME's are placed on 8hrs"
The result, again unconfirmed, shocked me, with 6 out of 8 saying yes they would.

The AIRC decision has, in effect, has stopped QF from using self centered DMM's and LAME's working against us to further, or safeguard, their place within the company whilst throwing the rest of us to the wolves.

We can now say to these people, " No, you can not undermine us as a group ", " you shall work what we work, like it or not, for there is more to this than you , (and the chance for you to better yourself in the eyes of M.)

With the EBA negotiations stalling, maybe a protected action of some sort should commence, then we shall see who is prepared to work with us, and who will undermine's us. We can then show these people the door from our ALAEA, and leave them to the wolves without the protection that we, the ALAEA, provide.

F**K EM!

[perdmm]

Shortly before the IRC decision was given, M and DH offered the Perth DMM’s individual AWA’s so they could stay on the 12 hour.
Of course the usual suspects lapped up the idea but due to a sticking point with one DMM, it was taken off the table (for now).

[sobast]

Hey Splashman. Up front, this is not an attack on you it is simple discussion. OK? You seem to know a fair bit of what's happening so maybe you can explain. I asked elsewhere and no-one answered. I just got abuse. Do you know what the problem was in Perth with the 10.9 hr shift? I believe it was 4 on 4 off. Someone said they'd lose 7k in penalties but that can't be right. Any ideas?

You said

We can now say to these people, " No, you can not undermine us as a group ", " you shall work what we work, like it or not, for there is more to this than you

. I know where you're comng from.
At the same time in MEL the vote seemed "rigged" the other way. They were voting on rosters for INT,DOM and supers. Each of the 3 areas had to have the same majority one way or the other. That meant that the the smallest group of (I think) 8 had control of the vote. You could have a couple of hundred guys voting one way, but the 8 would override them. Even if only 3 of te 8 voted the other way. NOTE- I'm NOT bagging the supers. It's just the way I see it, the smaller number won the vote because of the way the votes were weighted by the union. Please, if I've got it mixed up, tell me.
It's hard to get balanced discussion/information around here with people like goatrooter and anusfiller dumping on anyone who dares question them. Oops, I mean question the exec.

[perdmm]

Sobast.
As for the Perth part of your query. There simply was no negotiation, 10.9 or 8.
You were exactly correct with your statement. Depending on what grade you were, you stood to lose approx $6000-8000 a year plus 12 “Z-days” with nothing in return. (Except knowing management were getting huge bonuses and the company were making record profit)