The NAS Debate: Other Opinions

[OverRun]

Gagged Again,

Sorry to interrupt you in full flow but

Hey Mike, ever flown an airplane of any sort yourself?? ( the Jumpseat /back seat doesn't count, nor do model airplanes.. sorry) Ever stuck your head into a set of binoculars/ or kept your eyes stuck on a radar screen for 8 hours? WHAT? YOU HAVEN'T?

I wanted to point out that if you stick your head inside a pair of binoculars, (a) you must have a small head, and (b) you risk getting splinters from all that nasty glass you'd break on the way in. Also I can understand your own dedication which gives you the ability to keep your eyes stuck on a radar screen for 8 hours. That is the sort of commendable dedication to your calling that has made aviation what it is today. Tracking flights across the screen, turning flights this way and that, intricately weaving aircraft in a three-dimensional kaleidoscope. Please don't take this badly when I advise you that Broome doesn't have a radar unit so although the radar screen might keep you transfixed and entertained for 8 hours, Walley2 might not think it worthwhile to keep his eyes stuck on the radar screen for that long.

I think Ferris has covered all the other points very well, and echoed the opinions of the rest of us.

[Hempy]

What makes you think the fact that you "own" an airport gives you any qualification to make ANY serious comments on NAS pal?

Do you even have any idea what MBZ even means?

Clearly, you have NFI.

I'd say a person owning and operating an airport would have more cred than someone who flew into one once or twice a month....

[lastposting]

DEBATE OUTSIDE OF PPRUNE

I'm gonna let you have it, then I'm outta here for good.

Woomera PPrunes administration in their wisdom have decided to brown me out again. Your site, fair enough. But there is no way you can then go on to claim to be a defacto site for a NAS debate, because the only one you let in for the "for" team is Dick Smith... I'll tell you again, I am not the author / webmaster of bindook.com. It must be as a NAS supporter that this is occuring. NOT the way to run a fair debate.

Hempy your above post is dispicable and offensive. Your ignorance is legendary, HTF would you know how often I fly??? It's a helluva lot more than twice a month, let me tell you. Woomera , the double standard for allowed postings that exist on this forum that clearly contravene your own posting rules is another reason why PPrune can't be considered as a serious debating location for this topic ... unless it takes a neutral position on this topic and reserves it's interference on posters/postings to the rude and offensive ones.

Ferris Personal attacks???? Quote Capelhorn from another thread...

S-H You B@@@@@
You left out the capitalistic, opium running, sell their grandma for two bob, profiteering air-pot-smoking owners.
What is the link to the real site? must take a look

If that isn't a personal attack I don't know what constitutes one (not to mention libelous)... and don't tell me he got an "actual expert" to check that one out.

As for RPT guys having more experience, in some cases, sure, but how long since some of those guys actually flew commercial GA? Some of 'em might go back to the full reporting days, I'd say. Fly the 747 any day, but I wouldn't give 'em a Cheftian or a Cessna 182 to fly about with without a check first, they're likely to flare 80 feet above the rwy before getting a bit of practice. It's just common bloody sense.

Overrun I am very well aware that Broome is not Radar equipped. If Capelhorne is soooo acutely aware of RPT safety as he says why doesn't he just fund radar into his airport. What?? the cost you say Capelhorne??? What cost a life, right???

Dick Smith Dick, I'd suggest to not waste another line here in this forum. You really are dealing with the lunatic fringe in here. Keep up the great work.

VoR excellent research and some good points in your postings. Thank God one of you has the sense to debate NAS rationally. May I say it'd be best to debate Dick Smith outside of this forum somewhere, say, at a conference of some kind on neutral ground, where the more rational can meet face to face to discuss differences and get viewpoints across calmly and without abuse... and without getting RSI for your efforts. Surely a compromise exists, "somewhere in between shall we all meet" and hopefully a clear, agreed upon direction & resolution with NAS and the finer points can be undertaken as a result. I urge you & Dick to consider.

As for the rest of you whingeing ignorant lunatics, (NOT all of you!!!) gotta go fly in the real world now ... good riddance.

As expected, I'm sure Pprune "admin" will perform another brown out and lunatics who have nothing better to do than bag others and pick apart postings here will want the last word... so, knock yourselves out.


MP.

[Towering Q]

Fly the 74 any day, but I wouldn't give 'em a Cheftian or a Cessna 182 to fly about with without a check first, they're likely to flare 80 feet above the rwy.

...hmmmmm....not a particularly good ambassador for the pro NAS camp. Dick must be cringing.

[ferris]

lastposting

I'll only refer to your reply to me.
You have misunderstood Capelhorn's post. It is NOT a personal attack on the owners of the website. It is a tongue-in-cheek referral to AIRPORT owners- obviously he felt left out of the attack he was referring to. Read it in context.

If that isn't a personal attack I don't know what constitutes one (not to mention libelous)...

So by all means, continue making a fool of yourself.

Why don't you address any of the important points in my post? Do you think if you ignore them, they'll just go away? If you really had aviation's best interests at heart, why would you waste time faffing around with the airspace design, pissing away a fortune in the process? ROME IS BURNING.

[WALLEY2]

In defence of Woomera the quote attributed to me was a tongue in cheek reply pointing out S-T who in listing all the fellows Dick had said were crazy eg: CASA, ATC, RPT Captains, AsA, ATSB etc had left out Airport owners. Those comment I wrote were about me. Gagged Again: I think you missed the point again.

Well S-T: I can now rest easy as Gagged Again has made up for your failure to advise that Dick also thought I was stupid, I appear to be a complete unethical imbecile. Surely this cements my place on the defamed, anti progress, over-safe, over analysed, anti-Christ oops anti-NAS list.

Gagged Again:

I am satisfied I have kept my main comments to areas of my professional expertise being engineering risk assessment, airports and un-controlled terminal airspace procedures, ICAO, CASA, and some FAA applicable regulations.

I can not comment on your counter arguments to our Broome CAGRS/MBZ position as you made none.



Anyway I hope this statement stops an incorrect attack on Woomera.

Thanks for the supportive comments from others- despite the occasional posts like Gagged Again this forum is worthwhile and the discussion and debates helps to stimulate and re-assess held positions especially on difficult subjects like NAS.

[Hempy]

Woomera

Although I can't see how I've contavined the rules on posting any more than most the posters on here, I understand if you feel the need to censor my posts. However, an "edited by Woomera" would have been appropriate

Hempy old chap if a Woomera does edit your post then an "edited by Woomera" will appear at the bottom of the post.
??? like it should do at the bottom of this one???

[Woomera]

WALLEY2, we received the following self explanatory email from Max (Gagged Again, Bindook.com etc). I'm not sure whether he wanted this posted in this thread or the World's Worst ATC thread.

G'Day Woomeries,

Sorry to trouble you one last time however I note a posting from WALLEY 2 (Mike Capelhorne) and would like to convey a message to him. I'm sick to death of re registering with pprune then getting shut out, so I'd ask if you can forward it /personally, or post it publically for me please.
_____________________

Mr. Capelhorne,

Your post on the thread "the NAS debate.. other opinions" has been noted. If this is indeed the case behind your posting on the bindook.con thread, please accept my apology, I have certainly read your comment out of context.

However, I DID contact you personally through the pprune site to give you the chance to explain this message before my posting, and received no reply from you.

As for Woomera's "double standard", to their credit they have removed the offensive sections of the postings in question, which were not yours.

I look forward to discussions on NAS being held elsewhere where ALL sides can get a fair hearing... not just the ones who support your cause, right or wrong.

Regarding your Certified air/ground radio service/ Mandatory broadcast Zone in YBRM If you have the pax numbers through your airport like you state then why the hell is it an MBZ with CAGRS in the first place. I'll give you one simple abbreviated sentence to go a long way to solve your problem... ATC,
Class "C" and SSR, if you're that keen to make YBRM safe. However, I'd say that you'll say that is cost prohibitive.

True forums Mr Capelhorne are where BOTH sides express a point of view equally, NOT 50 VS 1 in an anti NAS sanctuary where you can all pat each other on the back for "getting it right".

Regards, Max Philips.

____________________________

If you could pass that on, thanks Woomeries.

Cheers... Max.

Having posted this email, we wish to make it clear: (a) we are not a proxy PPRuNe posting service, and (b) the opinions expressed above are Max's personal opinions and not those of PPRuNe or Woomeri, who are unbiased in this debate.

Woomera

[Hempy]

Woomera old chap(s),

Im not trying to start a debate, dont get me wrong. I guess it depends on the definition of "edit". Removing a part of a post (offensive to some or not) construes "editing" in my book. Nuff said.



Hempy old fruit,

If you wish to be a purist, the definition of "edit" is as follows:

To prepare (written material) for publication or presentation, as by correcting, revising, or adapting.
To prepare an edition of for publication: edit a collection of short stories.
To modify or adapt so as to make suitable or acceptable: e.g. edited her remarks for presentation to a younger audience.
To supervise the publication of (a newspaper or magazine, for example).
To assemble the components of (a film or soundtrack, for example), as by cutting and splicing.
To eliminate; delete: e.g. edited out inappropriate sections.

I've highlighted those aspects of the definition of "edit" which specifically apply to my function as Moderator.

Why? Because it's our sand pit and we set the rules, to which you agreed!

When your "clients" dictate how they use the airspace which you are responsible for, I'll give some suggestion to proposing to management we give a free for all in PPRuNe. Don't hold your breath waiting for either to occur!

Quod erat demonstrandum!!!

Woomera

[WALLEY2]

S-T
Sorry this was a later post. Ref: My post follows yours on that thread I was thanking you for including BIA this time. I was very pleased to see that we were included in the A List.


Woomera: Gagged Again did message me and ask me with civillity to change the "defaming" post which he now realises he mis-understood. This occured in mid June, the fault is mine as I did not check my messages until yesterday.

Gagged Again while I disagree with what you say along with Woomera and most ppruners I defend your right to say it.

Could I suggest before posting you take a breath and analyse what you believe to be wrong with the post that has enraged you and then present arguments against the subject matter not the person.

I think VoR has shown how effective this can be in advancing both the knowledge of ppruners and your own position.

Lets put this behind us and move on.

[Bizpax]

The light of reason and truth

It seems that Voices of Reason is seeing some signs of impact on the policy makers as a result of his/its/their demolition and exposure of the lie of NAS. Perhaps we passengers are shortly to be relieved of the Dead Cat stench of this worst abuse of a public process ever witnessed in Australia and might have our safety returned to the proud level it once was. Since VoR seems to see the NAS debacle as a battle between good and evil, I point out that Jesus also explained to Nicodemus that 'although the light has come into the world men have shown they prefer darkness to the light because their deeds were evil. And indeed, everybody who does wrong hates the light and avoids it, for fear his actions should be exposed..' Perhaps that's why the chief instigator of NAS seems to have had a dummy spit and gone into hiding. He fears the light. I hope that the professionals in Canberra can clean up the mess and return confidence and trust to the industry.

For all those who have worked tirelessly under impossible pressures and conditions to protect me and my family when we fly - thank you. After 'rollback' I look forward to taking a 'quickie' to Cairns soon, secure in the knowledge that I'm in the hands of the world's best pilots and air traffic controllers.

[Lodown]

Sheesh! Bizpax, bit of a lightyear stretch tying this into a fight between good and evil.

I don't doubt that all sides have good intentions. Dick's proposal had some tremendous parts that would have been good for aviation in this country. But in the washout, and quite rightly, there are procedures required to justify any change like this. NAS had a few parts that just couldn't pass the required checks and balances that a good administration should have in place.

The disgusting part in all this was that there were well paid administrators prepared to overlook their own organisations' checks and balances for the sake of a perceived growth in personal influence. NAS wouldn't have progressed as far as it did in the form it had if a few influential people had have made responsible decisions in the first place.

[Bizpax]

Lodown is remarkably sanguine

Well Lodown, in the cold light of day out of the influence of several glasses of shiraz, I agree my posting was a bit strong in tone. However, anyone who has been personally responsible for a decade of wastage of public funds, improper influence of public office holders, misleading of Cabinet, misinformation and ignorance of all sorts, mindless ideological pursuit of union members, preposterously dangerous regulatory changes ( a number of which are still in place and which still the regulator has not abandoned), personal threats to a number of individuals, destruction of trust and confidence within the industry and breathtaking arrogance - is still in my books evil or at best got some screws loose. All of which has been revealed in the parallel thread to this one. Don't ask me -I'm just a passenger that spends too many hours in the arse-end of aluminium tubes and takes an interest in aviation safety. Your fellow industry professionals seem to be largely of the same view, reading this and other threads.

If airspace reform was depoliticised, handed over to expert airspace designers and handled by experts in proper public processes, all this need never have happened. What a damn shame no one can finally pull the plug and give the Minister a way out.

[rosscoe]

Control Zone.

<quote>
Do VFR receive the same level of safety in Class E that was Class C prior to Nov 27 2003?
Probably a higher level now as they can track direct and they are not forced over tiger country in single engine aircraft – which often happened. I was recently speaking to a pilot of an aircraft who on numerous times overflying Hamilton Island was kept holding at the control zone boundary over water in a single engine aircraft. Now that aircraft can fly in Class E airspace at a higher level of safety.
</quote>


Dick,

You seem to be confusing airspace classifications here.

The Hamilton Island Control zone has been class D since the 27th Nov 2003. Not class E as implied.

If this pilot was held in what is now class E airspace he would not have been held at the boundary of the control zone.

If what you are talking about is being held outside what was the Class C steps then the aircraft would have been above 4500 feet and should have easily been in a position to glide to the nearest land safely in the event of an engine failure.

As per usual don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

By the way did you get held at all last time you flew through the Hamilton Island control zone in your caravan.


Regards
Ross

[World's Worst]

I love doggo’s. You get paid to surf the internet and play with all the boys on pprune.

Just heard the rumour that next Friday’s Board meeting is going to be a watershed. Apparently the long expected decision by the Board to roll back NAS is going to be ratified AND the Minister’s gun is being loaded for bear.

I hear the Board is for the axe, as well as a certain quite senior manager in our quaint little organizational headquarters in dreary Canberra.

Risky move for Big John in an election year, but I hear the alternative is a stoush with the bickie man in his own electorate. Let’s see. Another 3 years with his snout at the public trough, or a sacrifice to the safety gods.

[Uncommon Sense]

WW:

Your apparent identity crisis leaves me unsure as to the strength, conviction and quality of your rumour?

[bekolblockage]

I have a horrible suspicion WW did a lot of EDs & doggos in Sydney in the late 80's.
Am I getting warm?

[World's Worst]

Yeah, well I might have been in Sydney then… loved the E/D roster. Guess you guys have still got it. Couldn’t understand how management let it go on. Great rip-off of the system though. So, world’s worst controllers, and dragging in the dosh by the bucket load on rostered sickies! Oh, well, it helps to pay the mortgage. Wonder if the public got wind of it what they’d think. Better not tell the bickie man – imagine how he’d react.

[missy]

ED roster. what a lot of tripe. in the more than 20 years at sydney never worked on a roster that had such a thing.

[World's Worst]

Missy, missy, missy,

No E/D roster?

You must work for management! Or maybe you're a CivilAir Rep!

Every controller in Australia knows about E/D rosters, and just about every controller in Australia supplements their income with this nice little earner.

Remember Norm Gallagher and the BWU? Remember how they came a cropper over corruption.

Mate, rostered E/Ds, admin days, illegal shift swaps to extend breaks. Pretty close to the definition of corruption.

'course I'd just like to state for the record that I've never participated in such schemes myself, your honour.