The NAS Debate: Other Opinions
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I am not sure what I find more offensive...World's Worst's accusations or the reaction of those other contributors to this thread.
" I think he doth protest too much!"
Perhaps there is an element of truth to World's Worst's accusations, because the rebuttals have been too emphatic.
He seems to be a controller, well versed in Australian Operations, with an intimate knowledge of staffing in Sydney.
"Where there's smoke there's fire".
" I think he doth protest too much!"
Perhaps there is an element of truth to World's Worst's accusations, because the rebuttals have been too emphatic.
He seems to be a controller, well versed in Australian Operations, with an intimate knowledge of staffing in Sydney.
"Where there's smoke there's fire".
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Thats the way Chris you have a reputation for making unfounded, and downright wrong statements, so feel free to here as well. By your reasoning all the controllers in Australia, who like any other proffession are proud of what they do and how they do it, should sit and say nothing. They should accept the mouthing off of a bitter and twisted wash out, and say nothing in their defence. If you want to weigh into this debate, do something Worlds Worst or anyone else couldn't do, back it up with figures.
FYI, with TCAS these days, pilots know when there has been a near miss, and so it would be crazy to try and cover up anything as a controller. Also most controllers would love nothing better than to have enough staff not to have to work overtime and Emergency duties, but as I said before due to the incompetence of managers, there is always a flood then famine approach to staffing, ie. give everyone VR, oops Recruit like crazy, oops give everyone VR oops etc.
Why I should be surprised that you would jump on WW's side of the fence is a mystery though, I mean anyone who proudly says GA in the USA is safer and has a lower accident rate than Australia, even though all data shows otherwise, can't be believed on anything. And then to try and delete all incriminating posts to try and cover the tracks of their unresearched waffle, shows just how much backbone that individual also has. As I said, someone on here back up your statements about Australian controllers or quit it and go back to pulling wings off flies.
FYI, with TCAS these days, pilots know when there has been a near miss, and so it would be crazy to try and cover up anything as a controller. Also most controllers would love nothing better than to have enough staff not to have to work overtime and Emergency duties, but as I said before due to the incompetence of managers, there is always a flood then famine approach to staffing, ie. give everyone VR, oops Recruit like crazy, oops give everyone VR oops etc.
Why I should be surprised that you would jump on WW's side of the fence is a mystery though, I mean anyone who proudly says GA in the USA is safer and has a lower accident rate than Australia, even though all data shows otherwise, can't be believed on anything. And then to try and delete all incriminating posts to try and cover the tracks of their unresearched waffle, shows just how much backbone that individual also has. As I said, someone on here back up your statements about Australian controllers or quit it and go back to pulling wings off flies.
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Now, now, ANSA.
I know you've been away, mate, so maybe you should check your facts.
I stood at a senior management briefing last year where they showed us a presentation on the fabled BOS review. BOS, as in Breakdown of Separation. They cited several hundred in a three year period if I remember right, and most of them were controller errors.
That report was public knowledge amongst us controllers, but never hit the streets.
So don't give me that holier than thou how wonderfully skilled we are as professionals stuff. One in ten of us is making a major error every few years.
I put stuff about E/D rosters on another thread because my licence to play here was pulled.
What's this got to do with NAS. A lot. Coz if ATCs want to be heard, they have to be respected, and I reckon we're not respectable enough to talk about airspace design when we can't even do basic ATC, and we get paid too much to do even that.
I know you've been away, mate, so maybe you should check your facts.
I stood at a senior management briefing last year where they showed us a presentation on the fabled BOS review. BOS, as in Breakdown of Separation. They cited several hundred in a three year period if I remember right, and most of them were controller errors.
That report was public knowledge amongst us controllers, but never hit the streets.
So don't give me that holier than thou how wonderfully skilled we are as professionals stuff. One in ten of us is making a major error every few years.
I put stuff about E/D rosters on another thread because my licence to play here was pulled.
What's this got to do with NAS. A lot. Coz if ATCs want to be heard, they have to be respected, and I reckon we're not respectable enough to talk about airspace design when we can't even do basic ATC, and we get paid too much to do even that.
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Air No Services.
You have no idea what you are talking about. I pulled references from another thread because I found my sources incorrect and admitted to that freely.
You have lowered your profession to making personal defammatory insults towards people you have never even met!
You sit in a foreign land also, and consider yourself to be the only one that can make an objective comment. Your comments are neither objective nor in any way superior to anyone elses.
I am not here to support World's Worst, Dick Smith or anyone else for that matter. It's time to cut all the crap and get to the truth.
1. Are there incompetent ATCs in Australia being covered up by their peers?
2. Are there a high number of ATC events in Australia?
3. Are there controllers now, or were there ever controllers, especially in Sydney, double-dipping, or rorting the system to gain illegal work hours?
4. What world standard are Australian Controllers held to?
5. What is the starting pay scale?
6. What is the top pay scale, with overtime?
7. What was Bernie Smith's salary last year?
and, finally!
8. Why did you leave Australia to work in the Middle East?
Sincerely,
Chris
You have no idea what you are talking about. I pulled references from another thread because I found my sources incorrect and admitted to that freely.
You have lowered your profession to making personal defammatory insults towards people you have never even met!
You sit in a foreign land also, and consider yourself to be the only one that can make an objective comment. Your comments are neither objective nor in any way superior to anyone elses.
I am not here to support World's Worst, Dick Smith or anyone else for that matter. It's time to cut all the crap and get to the truth.
1. Are there incompetent ATCs in Australia being covered up by their peers?
2. Are there a high number of ATC events in Australia?
3. Are there controllers now, or were there ever controllers, especially in Sydney, double-dipping, or rorting the system to gain illegal work hours?
4. What world standard are Australian Controllers held to?
5. What is the starting pay scale?
6. What is the top pay scale, with overtime?
7. What was Bernie Smith's salary last year?
and, finally!
8. Why did you leave Australia to work in the Middle East?
Sincerely,
Chris
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Mr Higgins and WWv.2
Take it to another thread.
I'll make a new one if you like. Note Woomera's comment on my previous locked thread - "Now if any one can provide some real proof of this alleged behaviour, they should take it to the appropriate authority."
Mr Higgins, how would you like it if your Bondi thread was hijacked, the way this one is?
Start a new thread on the subject.
I'll make a new one if you like. Note Woomera's comment on my previous locked thread - "Now if any one can provide some real proof of this alleged behaviour, they should take it to the appropriate authority."
Mr Higgins, how would you like it if your Bondi thread was hijacked, the way this one is?
Start a new thread on the subject.
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Geez, guys, don’t start me on controllers and NAS.
All the way along it’s been we can’t do this, we can’t do that, what about the liability, what about the unknown traffic, what about the training, what happens if, the sky is falling, the sky is falling.
Give me a break.
The line controllers have busted a gut to get training done, to meet the ridiculous timelines the big boys set. All the while the union bleats that we can’t possibly do it, so everything gets watered down.
Meantime, back on the line, ordinary controllers just get on with it.
Remember the G demo. What a horse’s rear. But we coped and provided a 5 star service. It was the idiots in management who let us down – and really poor airline training. Remember the bleating about east coast Class E. Can’t be done. Well, could be done, and has been for years with a first class service.
What I’m saying is that despite what you hear and read, controllers who try really can provide first class services – it’s the lazy majority who stop us giving pilots everything Dick wants in NAS and more.
I certainly do, and a few around me. I earn my dollars. Others don’t.
All the way along it’s been we can’t do this, we can’t do that, what about the liability, what about the unknown traffic, what about the training, what happens if, the sky is falling, the sky is falling.
Give me a break.
The line controllers have busted a gut to get training done, to meet the ridiculous timelines the big boys set. All the while the union bleats that we can’t possibly do it, so everything gets watered down.
Meantime, back on the line, ordinary controllers just get on with it.
Remember the G demo. What a horse’s rear. But we coped and provided a 5 star service. It was the idiots in management who let us down – and really poor airline training. Remember the bleating about east coast Class E. Can’t be done. Well, could be done, and has been for years with a first class service.
What I’m saying is that despite what you hear and read, controllers who try really can provide first class services – it’s the lazy majority who stop us giving pilots everything Dick wants in NAS and more.
I certainly do, and a few around me. I earn my dollars. Others don’t.
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Chris (and others),
I had intended to attend your gabfest, as I am here atm- but I've changed my mind. I don't believe you are impartial, nor understand where the airspace problems lay. How could you have followed the debate, yet somehow believe the controllers are in any way, shape or form, able to affect how NAS pans out? There is little point attending if things like controller ability and pay rates are even remotely perceived as part of the problem. "Where there's smoke, there's fire"? Please.
There are reams of posts about whether controllers were running an 'industrial campaign' (because Dick's camp use it as a catch-cry to explain oppostion to NAS), so, once again, we are just going over old ground.
World's worst can't decide whether it's management or lazy controllers he hates. Rat smell getting stronger. Oh, and Chris, here's some smoke for you:
World's worst was the controller fired because he nearly put 2 together recently. He was also the liason officer for the 'Class G trial', and a lot of the blame for poor airline training rests with him. He is very bitter about being in SY (where his loss of license incident occurred), because he wanted to go to a 'country tower' but was refused transfer by management. He was an opponent of LLAMP (because after the G demo debacle wasn't invited to contribute), and keen to see it fail.
Does what he is saying now make sense to you? Is it all fitting into place? I hope so- because I made it all up. But remember- "where there is smoke, there is fire".
As to your questions.
1) If you understood ATC, you would realise incompetent ATCs don't stay on the console. They become managers. (would be funny if it wasn't true).
2) I don't know. If they are being covered up (as you insinuate), how would any data be useful, anyway?
3) Illegal work hours? No. Excessive amounts of overtime. Yes. You need to look at the REASONS for that overtime, not the fact of the overtime. It is common in many industries to employ less people than required, then work your employees harder. Reasons such as; bean-counters deciding it is cheaper to have less employees working extra hours, inability to plan staff levels BECAUSE NOBODY KNOWS FROM ONE YEAR TO THE NEXT WHAT THE AIRSPACE WILL LOOK LIKE, OR WHAT SERVICE WILL BE GIVEN TO WHOM, how much training (that wasn't planned for) will have to be given before being scrapped and re-done. Or how many employees just get jack of the whole debacle and leave to go overseas.
4) World standard. Good question. I know that 2 trainees started with us recently- an aussie and a yank (with 25 years exp in a major centre). The yank didn't check out, even with extra sim and training time. The aussie had no trouble. So you tell me. (oh and ww, in the 'muddle east' we work twice the movements of eurocontrol).
5) Start pay is about 40k
6) Top pay is about 120k. Overtime is on top, but largely depends on the individual. Some work none (or as little as possible), some work every bit they can. In a year like the NAS debacle, it would be possible to make 40k in overtime.
7) Don't get me started on what exec pay is like. He made more than the head of the largest govt dept. (as did the next 3 below him) Work that out.
8) Why leave? Unable to get ANY annual leave, let alone when you want it. Management skill non-existent. HR policy designed around how to possibly piss controllers off and pay them less. Non-existent career progression (see comment about promotion of incompetents). Getting rung up 9 times over the one weekend you have managed to score off, to come in to work overtime (again). Dealing with the miriad changes foisted on you daily in regards technical aspects of the job, NAS, TAAATS, etc. I could go on for hours, but it gets boring.
Good luck with the love-in. It won't achieve a single thing.
I had intended to attend your gabfest, as I am here atm- but I've changed my mind. I don't believe you are impartial, nor understand where the airspace problems lay. How could you have followed the debate, yet somehow believe the controllers are in any way, shape or form, able to affect how NAS pans out? There is little point attending if things like controller ability and pay rates are even remotely perceived as part of the problem. "Where there's smoke, there's fire"? Please.
There are reams of posts about whether controllers were running an 'industrial campaign' (because Dick's camp use it as a catch-cry to explain oppostion to NAS), so, once again, we are just going over old ground.
World's worst can't decide whether it's management or lazy controllers he hates. Rat smell getting stronger. Oh, and Chris, here's some smoke for you:
World's worst was the controller fired because he nearly put 2 together recently. He was also the liason officer for the 'Class G trial', and a lot of the blame for poor airline training rests with him. He is very bitter about being in SY (where his loss of license incident occurred), because he wanted to go to a 'country tower' but was refused transfer by management. He was an opponent of LLAMP (because after the G demo debacle wasn't invited to contribute), and keen to see it fail.
Does what he is saying now make sense to you? Is it all fitting into place? I hope so- because I made it all up. But remember- "where there is smoke, there is fire".
As to your questions.
1) If you understood ATC, you would realise incompetent ATCs don't stay on the console. They become managers. (would be funny if it wasn't true).
2) I don't know. If they are being covered up (as you insinuate), how would any data be useful, anyway?
3) Illegal work hours? No. Excessive amounts of overtime. Yes. You need to look at the REASONS for that overtime, not the fact of the overtime. It is common in many industries to employ less people than required, then work your employees harder. Reasons such as; bean-counters deciding it is cheaper to have less employees working extra hours, inability to plan staff levels BECAUSE NOBODY KNOWS FROM ONE YEAR TO THE NEXT WHAT THE AIRSPACE WILL LOOK LIKE, OR WHAT SERVICE WILL BE GIVEN TO WHOM, how much training (that wasn't planned for) will have to be given before being scrapped and re-done. Or how many employees just get jack of the whole debacle and leave to go overseas.
4) World standard. Good question. I know that 2 trainees started with us recently- an aussie and a yank (with 25 years exp in a major centre). The yank didn't check out, even with extra sim and training time. The aussie had no trouble. So you tell me. (oh and ww, in the 'muddle east' we work twice the movements of eurocontrol).
5) Start pay is about 40k
6) Top pay is about 120k. Overtime is on top, but largely depends on the individual. Some work none (or as little as possible), some work every bit they can. In a year like the NAS debacle, it would be possible to make 40k in overtime.
7) Don't get me started on what exec pay is like. He made more than the head of the largest govt dept. (as did the next 3 below him) Work that out.
8) Why leave? Unable to get ANY annual leave, let alone when you want it. Management skill non-existent. HR policy designed around how to possibly piss controllers off and pay them less. Non-existent career progression (see comment about promotion of incompetents). Getting rung up 9 times over the one weekend you have managed to score off, to come in to work overtime (again). Dealing with the miriad changes foisted on you daily in regards technical aspects of the job, NAS, TAAATS, etc. I could go on for hours, but it gets boring.
Good luck with the love-in. It won't achieve a single thing.
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Ferris
What you say makes perfect sense and I certainly do not condone false accusations by anyone.
Whether I fly in Sydney or down between mountains in Colorado at night, a healthy level of cynicism keeps me alive. Such afflictions help the average controller too!
We have to be careful not to cross the line, between healthy cynicism and paranoia. Sadly, I think this has been happening on these forums.
"Dick is out to get us! Crucify him! Crucify him!", may as well be a common mantra.
What I personally find concerning is that World's Worst seems to be a controller with very intimate knowledge of the intracacies of Australian ATC. What does he have to gain from making such "unreal" accusations. Remember the basic Hollywood B-grade movies: motive and means?
I have been overwhelmed by e-mails since Dick Smith proposed a meeting in Sydney. I called it the Bondi Beach Project because it's not about me or Dick Smith...it's about Australia. Bondi Beach is very symbolic of Australia. I have tried to direct some attention away from Dick Smith and restore some balance to these discussions. I've never met Dick, I really don't care what he or Tobzalp or anyone else for that matter thinks of me or what I'm doing. This is about people who disagree, finding a workable solution to what's ahead. I sure as hell don't want bodies falling from the sky and even my adversaries on this discussion board feel the same way!
There is a new reality that Australia must face. One that I was made painfully aware of at a young age whilst pursuing motocross. Australia represents only 3% of the world's market in most consumer products. Ask any of the Ford workers that were laid off in Geelong how long it took to find work? That 3% is shrinking with the power house economies of China and most of SE Asia taking off. Can we really afford to be pissing away $100 million at a time trying to figure this out?
It would have been impossible for me to make a living racing motocross in Australia, but Suzuki is paying Ricky Carmichael $10 million a year for two years just to do what I wanted to do as a young lad. You guys get pissed off at the very inclination that another Aussie has turned Yank on you, but fair's fair. Do I really want to go back to Qantas and not get a window seat for five years and start again on flying instructor pay? Or settle into a multi-million dolar career here as a domestic and international biz-jet captain, develop two other businesses and perhaps save my dough and retire in Port Macquarie?
America has a rough road ahead. ATC is not perfect here either. We are losing jobs abroad too to cheap labour.
The bottom line is...if there's any patriotism left in any of us, we will try and figure this out together and bloody well quick, before there's an accident!
Whether I fly in Sydney or down between mountains in Colorado at night, a healthy level of cynicism keeps me alive. Such afflictions help the average controller too!
We have to be careful not to cross the line, between healthy cynicism and paranoia. Sadly, I think this has been happening on these forums.
"Dick is out to get us! Crucify him! Crucify him!", may as well be a common mantra.
What I personally find concerning is that World's Worst seems to be a controller with very intimate knowledge of the intracacies of Australian ATC. What does he have to gain from making such "unreal" accusations. Remember the basic Hollywood B-grade movies: motive and means?
I have been overwhelmed by e-mails since Dick Smith proposed a meeting in Sydney. I called it the Bondi Beach Project because it's not about me or Dick Smith...it's about Australia. Bondi Beach is very symbolic of Australia. I have tried to direct some attention away from Dick Smith and restore some balance to these discussions. I've never met Dick, I really don't care what he or Tobzalp or anyone else for that matter thinks of me or what I'm doing. This is about people who disagree, finding a workable solution to what's ahead. I sure as hell don't want bodies falling from the sky and even my adversaries on this discussion board feel the same way!
There is a new reality that Australia must face. One that I was made painfully aware of at a young age whilst pursuing motocross. Australia represents only 3% of the world's market in most consumer products. Ask any of the Ford workers that were laid off in Geelong how long it took to find work? That 3% is shrinking with the power house economies of China and most of SE Asia taking off. Can we really afford to be pissing away $100 million at a time trying to figure this out?
It would have been impossible for me to make a living racing motocross in Australia, but Suzuki is paying Ricky Carmichael $10 million a year for two years just to do what I wanted to do as a young lad. You guys get pissed off at the very inclination that another Aussie has turned Yank on you, but fair's fair. Do I really want to go back to Qantas and not get a window seat for five years and start again on flying instructor pay? Or settle into a multi-million dolar career here as a domestic and international biz-jet captain, develop two other businesses and perhaps save my dough and retire in Port Macquarie?
America has a rough road ahead. ATC is not perfect here either. We are losing jobs abroad too to cheap labour.
The bottom line is...if there's any patriotism left in any of us, we will try and figure this out together and bloody well quick, before there's an accident!
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Chris,
really, how do you think controllers should react to Dick Smith? Seriously. The man uses undue influence to subvert due process, gets his way against all professional advice, rants and raves at opposition, then when it goes pear-shaped (ala the SMOKA incident- when EVERONE was doing EXACTLY as they were supposed to) blames 1) incompetent controllers "basically criminal" 2) incompetent pilots "poorly trained" 3) the ATSB "boys club". Everyone but himself. How should the industry treat the man? How about with the exact same level of respect? Agreed?
Maybe. Maybe not. He certainly has an axe to grind, and may just be a Dick supporter with friends in AsA. Alternatively, he may be one of the managers or Canberra dwellers spoken about earlier who have a pathelogical hatred of controllers. AsA is rife with them. Much the same as ground staff in an airline don't always appreciate the terms and conditions of flight crew. Certainly, there are a number of controllers who are embarrassed about the amount they earn (yet have no idea of their worth).
Anyway, as I said, even if you did reach some sort of consensus at gabfest, what would it achieve? Do you really think Dick will voluntarily drop his crusade? Will oz somehow become more 'internationally competetive' ( and in what context????). Will you realise your motocross dream?
Wouldn't that be a great opening question for Dick?
That would be question 2. Dick's TRUE motivation.
really, how do you think controllers should react to Dick Smith? Seriously. The man uses undue influence to subvert due process, gets his way against all professional advice, rants and raves at opposition, then when it goes pear-shaped (ala the SMOKA incident- when EVERONE was doing EXACTLY as they were supposed to) blames 1) incompetent controllers "basically criminal" 2) incompetent pilots "poorly trained" 3) the ATSB "boys club". Everyone but himself. How should the industry treat the man? How about with the exact same level of respect? Agreed?
World's Worst seems to be a controller
Anyway, as I said, even if you did reach some sort of consensus at gabfest, what would it achieve? Do you really think Dick will voluntarily drop his crusade? Will oz somehow become more 'internationally competetive' ( and in what context????). Will you realise your motocross dream?
Can we really afford to be pissing away $100 million at a time trying to figure this out?
The bottom line is...if there's any patriotism left in any of us, we will try and figure this out together and bloody well quick, before there's an accident!
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Dick's arguements about ASA's profit making certainly change as required also.
On his website (www.dicksmithflyer.com), he has a special section regarding the Coffs Harbour Class D tower (dated 30/10/00). In this section he states:
"The local operators at Coffs Harbour are paying a colossal $650,000 per annum to Airservices in Canberra to keep the tower. If the tower was replaced by a locally employed air/ground operator the total cost would be about $100,000 per annum."
However recently in the parallel thread, regarding a tower at Broome, he states:
"in relation to the Class D tower at Broome, you have obviously accepted that the safety study is valid. I don’t accept that it is valid. In 1991 I introduced the US FAA establishment and disestablishment formula for Class D control towers. That is the formula which was used to close down towers such as Wagga Wagga and Mount Isa. The key to the Broome situation is that the study has not been instigated. Why? Because if it is, it will clearly show that a tower is required at Broome – and the profits of Airservices and Broome Airport will be affected."
So, a Class D tower in Coffs Harbour is a money maker for ASA, yet one in Broome is not?
On his website (www.dicksmithflyer.com), he has a special section regarding the Coffs Harbour Class D tower (dated 30/10/00). In this section he states:
"The local operators at Coffs Harbour are paying a colossal $650,000 per annum to Airservices in Canberra to keep the tower. If the tower was replaced by a locally employed air/ground operator the total cost would be about $100,000 per annum."
However recently in the parallel thread, regarding a tower at Broome, he states:
"in relation to the Class D tower at Broome, you have obviously accepted that the safety study is valid. I don’t accept that it is valid. In 1991 I introduced the US FAA establishment and disestablishment formula for Class D control towers. That is the formula which was used to close down towers such as Wagga Wagga and Mount Isa. The key to the Broome situation is that the study has not been instigated. Why? Because if it is, it will clearly show that a tower is required at Broome – and the profits of Airservices and Broome Airport will be affected."
So, a Class D tower in Coffs Harbour is a money maker for ASA, yet one in Broome is not?
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Ferris,
Whether you like to admit it or not, Dick Smith is an icon in Australia, particuarly to the baby-boomers who have nothing to do with aviation.
You can love him or hate him, it's really irrelevant. It's only relevant that you have some input to the future of aviation by making sure that your concerns are heard. If you don't want to show up that's fine too, it's a little like voting: it's only one voice in the wilderness, right? That's how the Yanks ended up with Dubya!
Alright, so you guys are concerned enough about your reputations to work long and hard on these threads, (a good sign). Even Tobzalp has demonstrated enormous passion for his beliefs, and although he and I are from completely different material, I think his input has been quite good at times.
For people who work in a sophisticated field using high tech. I find it surprising just how sensitive and defensive you controllers can be. I was Air Safety Chairman based in JFK and had to deal with ATC on a weekly basis for events involving one or two of my 711 pilots I was responsible for. Sometimes, all I had to do was tell them what a great job they do and it would all just blow over. Some wanted the "facts", others seemed quite right brain in their work. It was a hard job, but I never had a case I couldn't get turned around and we had to offer some understanding the other way as well...
I don't know if you guys are the best in the world or not. How the hell would I know?! We do seem to get delays in and around Sydney. Are they avoidable? I don't know.
Dick Smith is an entrepreneurial spirit, with a maverick view of the world. Appreciate him, be proud to call him one of our own and don't berate him like a small child. I am not suggesting we turn into a bunch of Lemmings. Hold your own counsel, (as you have obviously been doing), but choose carefully your words to affect a favourable outcome.
Hopefully, you'll see behind the rantings and sometimes the mistakes on all of our posts, there are people here trying to make that crucial difference and seperate ourselves from the very real possibility of a major catastrophe down the road.
That is something we all have in common.
Whether you like to admit it or not, Dick Smith is an icon in Australia, particuarly to the baby-boomers who have nothing to do with aviation.
You can love him or hate him, it's really irrelevant. It's only relevant that you have some input to the future of aviation by making sure that your concerns are heard. If you don't want to show up that's fine too, it's a little like voting: it's only one voice in the wilderness, right? That's how the Yanks ended up with Dubya!
Alright, so you guys are concerned enough about your reputations to work long and hard on these threads, (a good sign). Even Tobzalp has demonstrated enormous passion for his beliefs, and although he and I are from completely different material, I think his input has been quite good at times.
For people who work in a sophisticated field using high tech. I find it surprising just how sensitive and defensive you controllers can be. I was Air Safety Chairman based in JFK and had to deal with ATC on a weekly basis for events involving one or two of my 711 pilots I was responsible for. Sometimes, all I had to do was tell them what a great job they do and it would all just blow over. Some wanted the "facts", others seemed quite right brain in their work. It was a hard job, but I never had a case I couldn't get turned around and we had to offer some understanding the other way as well...
I don't know if you guys are the best in the world or not. How the hell would I know?! We do seem to get delays in and around Sydney. Are they avoidable? I don't know.
Dick Smith is an entrepreneurial spirit, with a maverick view of the world. Appreciate him, be proud to call him one of our own and don't berate him like a small child. I am not suggesting we turn into a bunch of Lemmings. Hold your own counsel, (as you have obviously been doing), but choose carefully your words to affect a favourable outcome.
Hopefully, you'll see behind the rantings and sometimes the mistakes on all of our posts, there are people here trying to make that crucial difference and seperate ourselves from the very real possibility of a major catastrophe down the road.
That is something we all have in common.
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Dick Smith say's on another thread;
my bolding.
Oh really, their responses were most carefully based on the production of publicly available data and black letter law presented in response to your assertions.
One need only review your replies to see the results.
In the real world there are hypotheses and theories, everybody owns at least one, that remain so until someone presents the data either supporting or debunking them.
Personality politics may work in the short term, but in the end just don't cut it against the data.
Living and dying by the sword springs to mind here.
Chris
With respect we really are getting a little sick and tired of the "visiting firemen" including our local Indiana Jones telling us how dumb/unpatriotic/insular/naive blah. blah. blah we are.
is very revealing. No problems with the choice that you have made, just offended that you the belittle our enviromnent.
Give us some respect by accepting that we might just know what we are doing in OUR Australian environment, an environment you have not been in for what, 10 years??
Australians are over represented internationally in ALL fields of endeavour, my daughters husband, a little Aussie bleeder from the backblocks, is a world leader in his field in hypersonics and aerospace.
Nuh without being the slightest bit xenophobic or arrogant, Australia and Australians can hold their heads up anywhere and that includes airspace design and implementation, it's our environment and we know more about it than anyone else.
Lowdown, surely that can only happen if Gabrielle Trainor states who she is working for. Just as Voices of Reason has virtually no effect because the Minister, the Shadow Minister and everyone else discounts the credibility because of the anonymity, the same will happen with Gabrielle Trainor.
Oh really, their responses were most carefully based on the production of publicly available data and black letter law presented in response to your assertions.
One need only review your replies to see the results.
In the real world there are hypotheses and theories, everybody owns at least one, that remain so until someone presents the data either supporting or debunking them.
Personality politics may work in the short term, but in the end just don't cut it against the data.
Living and dying by the sword springs to mind here.
Chris
With respect we really are getting a little sick and tired of the "visiting firemen" including our local Indiana Jones telling us how dumb/unpatriotic/insular/naive blah. blah. blah we are.
You guys get pissed off at the very inclination that another Aussie has turned Yank on you, but fair's fair. Do I really want to go back to Qantas and not get a window seat for five years and start again on flying instructor pay? Or settle into a multi-million dolar career here as a domestic and international biz-jet captain, develop two other businesses and perhaps save my dough and retire in Port Macquarie?
Give us some respect by accepting that we might just know what we are doing in OUR Australian environment, an environment you have not been in for what, 10 years??
Australians are over represented internationally in ALL fields of endeavour, my daughters husband, a little Aussie bleeder from the backblocks, is a world leader in his field in hypersonics and aerospace.
Nuh without being the slightest bit xenophobic or arrogant, Australia and Australians can hold their heads up anywhere and that includes airspace design and implementation, it's our environment and we know more about it than anyone else.
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Chris,
Dick Smith is NOT an icon in Australia. He's regarded a bit like Lawrie Lawrence, ie. a strange guy, sometimes motivational, but really a bit of a try hard and a
.
Examples of Australian icons are ;
Dawn Fraser
Raylene Boyle
Don Bradman
Phar Lap
Weary Dunlop
Evonne Goolagong
You've been out of Oz too long. Remember in Oz;
- we sit in the front seat of the taxi
- we have beetroot on our hamburger
- we say see ya later, even if we may never meet again
- footy means Aussie Rules
- we put prawns on the barbie
- we call our PM by his first or last name, but never MR. PM
- and any thing not aussie is regarded with suspicion (usually for good reason).
Australia is the land of the long weekend, where we work for a living, we don't live for a working.
US culture has made inroads into Oz, but it is always aussiefied.
We think and do things differently in Oz.
Dick Smith is NOT an icon in Australia. He's regarded a bit like Lawrie Lawrence, ie. a strange guy, sometimes motivational, but really a bit of a try hard and a
.Examples of Australian icons are ;
Dawn Fraser
Raylene Boyle
Don Bradman
Phar Lap
Weary Dunlop
Evonne Goolagong
You've been out of Oz too long. Remember in Oz;
- we sit in the front seat of the taxi
- we have beetroot on our hamburger
- we say see ya later, even if we may never meet again
- footy means Aussie Rules
- we put prawns on the barbie
- we call our PM by his first or last name, but never MR. PM
- and any thing not aussie is regarded with suspicion (usually for good reason).
Australia is the land of the long weekend, where we work for a living, we don't live for a working.
US culture has made inroads into Oz, but it is always aussiefied.
We think and do things differently in Oz.
Chris said:
I agree. Get rid of E airspace. Get rid of Dick. Keep MBZs. Simple. Cost-effective (for most). Get over it. Move on, for God's sake!
Dick Smith is an entrepreneurial spirit, with a maverick view of the world. Appreciate him, be proud to call him one of our own
The bottom line is...if there's any patriotism left in any of us, we will try and figure this out together and bloody well quick, before there's an accident!
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For people who work in a sophisticated field using high tech. I find it surprising just how sensitive and defensive you controllers can be.
I will let WW answer your first 6 questions as he is the one that supposedly knows of all these "facts". In relation to question 7, here goes.
I left for the Middle East because:
1. No career structure in ASA, unless you brown nose you get nowhere, and if you get nowhere you are an Enroute controller for the rest of your career because of streaming (although thenkfully I have heard that is changing now). Been in Middle East less than 2 years now and already oportunities are appearing on the horizon I would have to wait 15 years to get in ASA.
2. Managers, being pedantic and immature about all the small things, but when it comes to the big picture not having a clue.
3. ASA, not being about safety or service to the aircraft, but making profit ABSOLUTELY priority number one. That left a bad taste in my mouth.
4. The last Certified agreement signed was a disgrace in my humble opinion. It solved none of the long running inequity problems ATC'ers had due to previous "grandfather" clauses agreed to, and amazingly agreed to put more "grandfather" clauses in for future generations of controllers. I gave up a days pay proudly to fight the agreement and the union rolled over in the end and put it to a vote (that 666 selfish people voted for).
5. Loving to travel and see the world, being no more than 8 hours from most of the world (the americas and Australia the exceptions) was a huge attraction.
6. Having my company pay for my children to be educated at a top notch private school and provide all accomodation etc, and pay 0% income tax, was a huge incentive.
As Ferris said we could go on and on why we left. We expat Aussie controllers may be out of the loop a little bit, but we still care what happens in Oz, and we still care when some dog starts undermining the integrity of our ex workmates.
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No offence ANSA but i am a bit disappointed at the amount of response that this Worlds Worst person is getting. The number one rule of the internet is DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS. This being is just that. If you look at the specifics of its posting, it has an understanding of but not specific and accurate knowledge.
I have a feeling that I know exactly who the individual is but the rules here would have the post edited and rightly so as if an individual wants to remain nameless for whatever reason then so be it as it allows discussion that would otherwise be impossible (It much harder to hide an online persona than many think. Google is an amazing device as is a knowledge of what it is you are looking for). Imagine if Worlds Worst were actually a controller (absolutely no way I give you the hot tip) and came out and told who it was? As if. And I do not expect it to. What I expect is that anyone with any safety concern speaks and speaks loud as without it this stupidity will continue. The side line noise continues from around 3 or 4 of the reincarnations that can not even come up with creative ways of hiding themselves no matter what telecommunications section they work for.
I have a feeling that I know exactly who the individual is but the rules here would have the post edited and rightly so as if an individual wants to remain nameless for whatever reason then so be it as it allows discussion that would otherwise be impossible (It much harder to hide an online persona than many think. Google is an amazing device as is a knowledge of what it is you are looking for). Imagine if Worlds Worst were actually a controller (absolutely no way I give you the hot tip) and came out and told who it was? As if. And I do not expect it to. What I expect is that anyone with any safety concern speaks and speaks loud as without it this stupidity will continue. The side line noise continues from around 3 or 4 of the reincarnations that can not even come up with creative ways of hiding themselves no matter what telecommunications section they work for.