The NAS Debate: Other Opinions
Join Date: Jan 2004
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What a load of rubbish!!
WW,
Like Missy, I've been in the company for over 20 years, and I have never worked or participated in a "sickie roster". I have worked in Sydney (only a three month temporary transfer) in the late 80s, and there was no such roster then.
I've worked in Brisbane, Mount Isa, and Archerfield and I can categorically say that no such rosters existed there either. I'm currently in Brissie and those guys I know who worked in Sydney prior to the great integration of centres also agree with me that such a roster never existed.
Plainly it seems the the "Sydney Sickie Roster" of the 80s is just another urban myth. Something along the lines of "coke rots your teeth" and "I woke up in a bath of ice with my kidneys gone" type myths.
WW, I'm not sure where you're coming from, but I suggest you pull your head in, especially if you really are an ATC.
As for your rumour about the demise of NAS. I've spoken to my sources and they agree that a board meeting will occur to discuss NAS, but the outcome is still open to speculation. Political preesure is still being applied, and we know what the AsA board is like.
DP
Like Missy, I've been in the company for over 20 years, and I have never worked or participated in a "sickie roster". I have worked in Sydney (only a three month temporary transfer) in the late 80s, and there was no such roster then.
I've worked in Brisbane, Mount Isa, and Archerfield and I can categorically say that no such rosters existed there either. I'm currently in Brissie and those guys I know who worked in Sydney prior to the great integration of centres also agree with me that such a roster never existed.
Plainly it seems the the "Sydney Sickie Roster" of the 80s is just another urban myth. Something along the lines of "coke rots your teeth" and "I woke up in a bath of ice with my kidneys gone" type myths.
WW, I'm not sure where you're coming from, but I suggest you pull your head in, especially if you really are an ATC.
As for your rumour about the demise of NAS. I've spoken to my sources and they agree that a board meeting will occur to discuss NAS, but the outcome is still open to speculation. Political preesure is still being applied, and we know what the AsA board is like.
DP
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Nice try, DP!
Oh no, we've never rorted the system. That would be against the law and we couldn't possibly admit to that.
Every controller in Australia knows it's a fact. Not one single controller in Australia will admit to it. Well, if you're willing to exclude the world's worst, that is.
Yes, there is a Board meeting next Friday. And yes, there is a LARGE amount of politicking going on, and guess what - the bikkie man is in there, boots and all. Even his best buddie on the Board, who, by the way, was a party to said E/D roster quite a few years ago in Sydney, is feeling the heat.
So count the votes.
Military pilot type votes rollback.
Qantas pilot type, under pressure from former employer, votes rollback.
North Queensland type votes rollback.
CEO type votes to keep his job. Status quo.
Lawyer type hasn't a clue.
Former ATC who had his licence lifted in Coffs tower. Votes for his bikkie making mate.
Looks like rollback wins.
Minister looks foolish. OK, more foolish. Lashes out. Announces no confidence in Board. Sacks Board. Retains CEO who was between two very hard things. Announces a reorganisation of governance arrangements. Industry advisory Board to assist Minister in Airservices governance. Certain senior executive from Qantas part of that advisory board. Huge amount of political heat for exactly 5 days. All blows over. No effect on election.
Yyyyaaaaawwwwnnnn!
And it all starts over again.
Oh no, we've never rorted the system. That would be against the law and we couldn't possibly admit to that.
Every controller in Australia knows it's a fact. Not one single controller in Australia will admit to it. Well, if you're willing to exclude the world's worst, that is.
Yes, there is a Board meeting next Friday. And yes, there is a LARGE amount of politicking going on, and guess what - the bikkie man is in there, boots and all. Even his best buddie on the Board, who, by the way, was a party to said E/D roster quite a few years ago in Sydney, is feeling the heat.
So count the votes.
Military pilot type votes rollback.
Qantas pilot type, under pressure from former employer, votes rollback.
North Queensland type votes rollback.
CEO type votes to keep his job. Status quo.
Lawyer type hasn't a clue.
Former ATC who had his licence lifted in Coffs tower. Votes for his bikkie making mate.
Looks like rollback wins.
Minister looks foolish. OK, more foolish. Lashes out. Announces no confidence in Board. Sacks Board. Retains CEO who was between two very hard things. Announces a reorganisation of governance arrangements. Industry advisory Board to assist Minister in Airservices governance. Certain senior executive from Qantas part of that advisory board. Huge amount of political heat for exactly 5 days. All blows over. No effect on election.
Yyyyaaaaawwwwnnnn!
And it all starts over again.
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Ok, since I no longer work there, I feel I can safely give an unbiased opinion.
WW is mistaken if he thinks ATC's rort the system. When there were a lot of ED's back about 5 years ago, it was invariably due to mismanagement of staff, ie. Giving Voluntary redundancy to lots of people and then 6 months later being left short. I never saw illegal swaps being done by controllers. There were times when the principles of rostering weren't followed after swaps were made, but there was always the minimum break between shifts. It was checked up on with the powers that be and it was confirmed that while you could not be rostered for certain things, if you were willing to swap shifts, it was up to you.
When I left, managers were closing airspace, when noone wanted to do an overtime (usually due to having all done excessive overtime already again due to staff number mismanagement), rather than being willing to call someone out from home on Emergency duty and pay them accordingly.
There was never an ED roster as he calls it in Melbourne, and in fact there was the despicable act of hauling in controllers for excessive sickness, when their only sickness all year was one block of 3 weeks due to undergoing an operation.
WW is making unfounded and untrue slanderous comments, and undermining a group of men and women who should be shown the respect they have earnt over many decades of an almost spotless safety record. Have a crack at the mismanagment and wastefulness of the managers, but leave the coalface controllers alone.
WW is mistaken if he thinks ATC's rort the system. When there were a lot of ED's back about 5 years ago, it was invariably due to mismanagement of staff, ie. Giving Voluntary redundancy to lots of people and then 6 months later being left short. I never saw illegal swaps being done by controllers. There were times when the principles of rostering weren't followed after swaps were made, but there was always the minimum break between shifts. It was checked up on with the powers that be and it was confirmed that while you could not be rostered for certain things, if you were willing to swap shifts, it was up to you.
When I left, managers were closing airspace, when noone wanted to do an overtime (usually due to having all done excessive overtime already again due to staff number mismanagement), rather than being willing to call someone out from home on Emergency duty and pay them accordingly.
There was never an ED roster as he calls it in Melbourne, and in fact there was the despicable act of hauling in controllers for excessive sickness, when their only sickness all year was one block of 3 weeks due to undergoing an operation.
WW is making unfounded and untrue slanderous comments, and undermining a group of men and women who should be shown the respect they have earnt over many decades of an almost spotless safety record. Have a crack at the mismanagment and wastefulness of the managers, but leave the coalface controllers alone.
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ANSA,
I'm so disappointed in your response.
Spotless safety record. Come on.
Didn't you get the briefing on the BOS report. Hundreds of near misses attributable to slack control techniques. Uncontrolled errors, if I recall correctly. If the public knew about it your former employer would be in deep crap.
So, hundreds of controllers rorting the system, hundreds of controllers making basis mistakes.
Doesn't sound good to me. I say bring in 500 US controllers, and make Oz a safer place.
p.s.
I don't suppose there's any vacancies for a highly paid, underskilled controller in the Muddle East?
I'm so disappointed in your response.
Spotless safety record. Come on.
Didn't you get the briefing on the BOS report. Hundreds of near misses attributable to slack control techniques. Uncontrolled errors, if I recall correctly. If the public knew about it your former employer would be in deep crap.
So, hundreds of controllers rorting the system, hundreds of controllers making basis mistakes.
Doesn't sound good to me. I say bring in 500 US controllers, and make Oz a safer place.
p.s.
I don't suppose there's any vacancies for a highly paid, underskilled controller in the Muddle East?
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Ah Ha!
Missy, Blastoid, ANSA, Ferris, Tobzalp, et al,
Don't get sucked in. Worlds Worst is not a controller. At best he is a fraud and dare I say, a close relative of winstun/churchall/spensa.
Woomera, if WW persists in this slanderous posting on this forum, could you please do something? I don't feel his posting is particularly useful, especially as this thread is to do with NAS. His assertions are unfounded and libelous.
To all others who read these posts, Oz ATCs do not and have not engaged in the sort of corruption that WW asserts. WW makes these assertions without any basis of fact or evidence to substantiate his claims. His posts are slanderous and particularly offensive to me and all my work colleagues.
DP
I've just checked WW's profile in an attempt to send him an e-mail to appeal to him to desist in making these public slanderous comments.
Guess what? He lists his occupation as "Air Traffic Bastardiser" and he will not accept e-mails.
Kind of hints at the mentality of the poster doesn't it?
DP
Don't get sucked in. Worlds Worst is not a controller. At best he is a fraud and dare I say, a close relative of winstun/churchall/spensa.
Woomera, if WW persists in this slanderous posting on this forum, could you please do something? I don't feel his posting is particularly useful, especially as this thread is to do with NAS. His assertions are unfounded and libelous.
To all others who read these posts, Oz ATCs do not and have not engaged in the sort of corruption that WW asserts. WW makes these assertions without any basis of fact or evidence to substantiate his claims. His posts are slanderous and particularly offensive to me and all my work colleagues.
DP
I've just checked WW's profile in an attempt to send him an e-mail to appeal to him to desist in making these public slanderous comments.
Guess what? He lists his occupation as "Air Traffic Bastardiser" and he will not accept e-mails.
Kind of hints at the mentality of the poster doesn't it?
DP
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Ah, DP,
Haven't worked it out yet, have you.
Australian controllers are not the saints you guys keep making out.
You rort the system. You are basically unsafe. You oppose any change that threatens to challenge your little rorts and expose your weakness as controllers.
Prove me wrong.
Tell the readers what your base salary is, and how much you earned last year, including E/Ds and O/T. I challenge any other controller to do it.
Tell the readers how many ESIRs have been put in on controller errors in the last 12 months.
What do you think the public would find reasonable.
One bad error a year. One bad error a month. One bad error a week. What if they knew it was one bad error a day.
That's why Dick is trying to change things. To make it safer for the Australian travelling public. You guys are trying to stop that much needed reform.
I say bring over 20 FAA controllers, rate them on the Hunter Group, or Byron, or Moreton, and see how real controllers do the job.
Haven't worked it out yet, have you.
Australian controllers are not the saints you guys keep making out.
You rort the system. You are basically unsafe. You oppose any change that threatens to challenge your little rorts and expose your weakness as controllers.
Prove me wrong.
Tell the readers what your base salary is, and how much you earned last year, including E/Ds and O/T. I challenge any other controller to do it.
Tell the readers how many ESIRs have been put in on controller errors in the last 12 months.
What do you think the public would find reasonable.
One bad error a year. One bad error a month. One bad error a week. What if they knew it was one bad error a day.
That's why Dick is trying to change things. To make it safer for the Australian travelling public. You guys are trying to stop that much needed reform.
I say bring over 20 FAA controllers, rate them on the Hunter Group, or Byron, or Moreton, and see how real controllers do the job.
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Obi, Obi, Obi,
I really love this site.
You controllers get to vent and rant, but when one of your own threatens to expose your hypocrisy, you try to close ranks and belittle your opposition.
I work with you, and I am on the inside. I probably work on your roster, and you don't know who I am or what I know about you, or your mates.
Australian controllers are the world's worst. Admit it, and allow some truly capable controllers from the US come out here and help you understand how it should be done.
I really love this site.
You controllers get to vent and rant, but when one of your own threatens to expose your hypocrisy, you try to close ranks and belittle your opposition.
I work with you, and I am on the inside. I probably work on your roster, and you don't know who I am or what I know about you, or your mates.
Australian controllers are the world's worst. Admit it, and allow some truly capable controllers from the US come out here and help you understand how it should be done.
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Whoever you are you would never be welcome here in the Middle East, cos with a chip on your shoulder like you have you would last 5 minutes. In the last 6 months before I left Melbourne there were 2 breakdowns in separation (or reductions as we call them here), and one of those was due to a pilot busting his cleared flight level. I think Qantas pilots earning with all their allowances a quarter of a million dollars plus, would be shocked to find there are controllers keeping them safe earning a quarter of the salary they are. Over paid?? Try doing some research and find out what controllers are paid in the US, Canada and Europe. They are all paid vastly more than Australian controllers of similair experience. Maybe since you are supposedly "inside" the system, you can put up some numbers to support your wild statements. Come on, none of these DickSmithisms of I have seen, a friend told me, I believe. Put up exact figures, rates of pay, numbers of accidents etc, or shut the hell up idiot.
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Is there anything sadder than a failed air traffic controller who can not accept that they were not good enough to make the grade - who then makes unfounded accusations against those who did?
Yes. I have figured out who you are. Why do you still work there? Pathetic.
Yes. I have figured out who you are. Why do you still work there? Pathetic.
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Sorry, I know I am just encouraging the whacker, but one last thing. It's amazing that according to WW, Oz controllers are the worst in every respect, they are dangerous, lazy fraudsters basically. Yet in the Middle East, currently the biggest employer of Expat ATC's in the world, Australian controllers are held generally in a very high regard. The companies that employ here, find them to be well trained and dilligent workers. In the UAE the Australian controllers never have a problem stepping up to the much higher traffic levels around Dubai, whereas a number of Scandinavians, and recently an American failed to meet the required standard. So WW tells us the Americans should come out to Oz cos they are the worlds best. Does WW really know what he is talking about, and if so, back it up with some hard evidence.
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ANSA, don't bother dude. You are just defending something that he/she/it could not be. He/she/it will not understand but will i expect respond with some "OMGBS WTF YOO ARE ALL LIARZ ETC RORT DICKDICKMEPLZ FS2003" type sh!t.
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Tobbie, baby!
Nice to hear ANSP admit that even the muddle east has more traffic that poor old Oz. Bet the tax free salary’s great too. Guess there’s no O/T or E/D payments though.
No as to my qualifications, well, I can’t remember failing an ATC course, but some I work with reckon I didn’t even do one. Anyway, they still work with me, warts and all.
You guys are all skirting round the point.
I don’t have to qualify my statements about safety. Airservices has already investigated it and admitted they have a major problem. Haven’t told Joe Public though.
Why won’t you clear the air and state your base salary, and what you earned last year. It’s easy to work it out. Just take a look at the Group Cert. The difference is O/T and E/Ds. Some was legit, some wasn’t.
And to the guy who set up a thread for me. Thanks, but no thanks. This is a good one. I have to support woomera in trying to get the thread to 30,000 views. They get an advertising bonus based on number of views, you know. Check it out.
Your pathetic bleatings are nauseous. Your last shot at Woomera got right up my nose.
You won’t be further contributing to the statistics on this thread.
Woomera
Nice to hear ANSP admit that even the muddle east has more traffic that poor old Oz. Bet the tax free salary’s great too. Guess there’s no O/T or E/D payments though.
No as to my qualifications, well, I can’t remember failing an ATC course, but some I work with reckon I didn’t even do one. Anyway, they still work with me, warts and all.
You guys are all skirting round the point.
I don’t have to qualify my statements about safety. Airservices has already investigated it and admitted they have a major problem. Haven’t told Joe Public though.
Why won’t you clear the air and state your base salary, and what you earned last year. It’s easy to work it out. Just take a look at the Group Cert. The difference is O/T and E/Ds. Some was legit, some wasn’t.
And to the guy who set up a thread for me. Thanks, but no thanks. This is a good one. I have to support woomera in trying to get the thread to 30,000 views. They get an advertising bonus based on number of views, you know. Check it out.
Your pathetic bleatings are nauseous. Your last shot at Woomera got right up my nose.
You won’t be further contributing to the statistics on this thread.
Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 26th Jul 2004 at 21:51.
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So, back to the subject if I may
Can anyone tell me just what happened at the metting on Friday?
I have heard the rumors of the ROLLBACK, but did it or is it going to happen.
If we don't have any definite responses, maybe somone has the the goss. if the rumour was true and the supposed topic was also true.
Just tell me that this whole NAS thing is going to go away, its really becoming a nightmare of uncertinty within the industry. This is not what we need, Please someone show some leadership, certinaly the Minister is not capable of doing so. Or at least his minders are keeping him very much in the dark.
While the heads are being banged together at the top (and elswhere) we the users and workers in the system are suffering, this is a very undesirable combination and creating another VERY weak link in the chain.
Richo
I have heard the rumors of the ROLLBACK, but did it or is it going to happen.
If we don't have any definite responses, maybe somone has the the goss. if the rumour was true and the supposed topic was also true.
Just tell me that this whole NAS thing is going to go away, its really becoming a nightmare of uncertinty within the industry. This is not what we need, Please someone show some leadership, certinaly the Minister is not capable of doing so. Or at least his minders are keeping him very much in the dark.
While the heads are being banged together at the top (and elswhere) we the users and workers in the system are suffering, this is a very undesirable combination and creating another VERY weak link in the chain.
Richo
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Uncommon Sense is right. the board meeting is scheduled for 31/07/04 - Friday.
Don't expect any announcement til the following week. I will, however, be consulting my snouts for any reliable rumours during the weekend.
It will be interesting to see just what sort of political pressure is being brought to bear. AsA has already lost one Chairman of the Board, and Bernie, the CEO, seems to be positioning himself to make a tactical withdrawl. After all, he must have some political nouce getting to his present position. Watch him to see which way the wind blows.
Watch this space.
Don't expect any announcement til the following week. I will, however, be consulting my snouts for any reliable rumours during the weekend.
It will be interesting to see just what sort of political pressure is being brought to bear. AsA has already lost one Chairman of the Board, and Bernie, the CEO, seems to be positioning himself to make a tactical withdrawl. After all, he must have some political nouce getting to his present position. Watch him to see which way the wind blows.
Watch this space.