Jetstar and Pay Scales
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Jetstar and Pay Scales
I believe this deserves a new thread. It comes from the Jetstar jobs, but it was a little unfair to hijack that thread with this discussion.
Col Kurtz stated:
Kurtz, please understand something here. This is not about my attitude, be it arrogant or snotty or whatever else you would like to personally lay upon me.
This is about net worth. Lets take you as an example, sir. You say you are happy with your lot, money is not a motivator for you. But lets say that another person comes along, and starts doing your job for exactly half what you get paid. Additionally, your prospects for advancement are greatly reduced, and your value to the community is downgraded. Kurtz, I believe that money will become a motivator to you very quickly. Because it is a very effective measuring stick.
Forgive my indignance, but I have a strong belief that an airline pilot who has struggled through his or her training, paid a small fortune for the privellege, and finally made it to the big time deserves more than these criminals at Jetstar are paying. By accepting this deal, the Jetstar pilots have made a statement to Airline Managements throughout Australia, and indeed the world, that our profession is worth less and less. If indeed you are an Airline Pilot, and if indeed you have an ounce of self respect you will understand my sentiments here.
Now, Kurtz, you may tell me that I shouldn't stress about it, because I will never change what has happened. And you are probably correct. But please don't limit my right to express my opinion about what has occurred here.
Another thread has recently been locked following a similar discussion, albeit on somewhere less than amicable terms. Thats because the instant that any of these Jetstar guys are critisized, they turn the thread into a slanging match. Now, I will certainly admit that over the years, I have done my fair share of sledging.
But my challenge to everyone on this Bulletin Board is this. Lets debate this topic, without resorting to sledging. Without playing the man. But lets have some serious answers.
To all Jetstar pilots. Are you aware that you have degraded pilot salary and conditions in Australia for the forseeable future?
Col Kurtz stated:
Prop baby, JS is not for me thanks, I like where I work and what I fly, and money is not really a problem nor a motivator for me - it comes and goes, and I do not base my feelings of self worth on who I work for or how many houses/cars/toys I have acquired. My wealth doesn't make me anybody special or a better class of person than the next John trying to make his way in the world.
But what irks me is the snotty and arrogant attitude and derision that fat cats like to pull on the those lower down the rungs.
What have YOU done to protect your conditions?? What active part did YOU play in protecting mainline's position?
Whilst we are at it, what have YOU done to contribute to the conditions of the 'collective' .
Head in the sand??? Like when Australian first got set up, you really had NO IDEA that the likes of JS were coming??
Life's been pretty good in the Torre d'Ivoire??
I have been around long enough to know that men will do what they have to do to keep the children fed - in ANY industry.....you won't change that, so don't stress, you'll live longer.
But what irks me is the snotty and arrogant attitude and derision that fat cats like to pull on the those lower down the rungs.
What have YOU done to protect your conditions?? What active part did YOU play in protecting mainline's position?
Whilst we are at it, what have YOU done to contribute to the conditions of the 'collective' .
Head in the sand??? Like when Australian first got set up, you really had NO IDEA that the likes of JS were coming??
Life's been pretty good in the Torre d'Ivoire??
I have been around long enough to know that men will do what they have to do to keep the children fed - in ANY industry.....you won't change that, so don't stress, you'll live longer.
This is about net worth. Lets take you as an example, sir. You say you are happy with your lot, money is not a motivator for you. But lets say that another person comes along, and starts doing your job for exactly half what you get paid. Additionally, your prospects for advancement are greatly reduced, and your value to the community is downgraded. Kurtz, I believe that money will become a motivator to you very quickly. Because it is a very effective measuring stick.
Forgive my indignance, but I have a strong belief that an airline pilot who has struggled through his or her training, paid a small fortune for the privellege, and finally made it to the big time deserves more than these criminals at Jetstar are paying. By accepting this deal, the Jetstar pilots have made a statement to Airline Managements throughout Australia, and indeed the world, that our profession is worth less and less. If indeed you are an Airline Pilot, and if indeed you have an ounce of self respect you will understand my sentiments here.
Now, Kurtz, you may tell me that I shouldn't stress about it, because I will never change what has happened. And you are probably correct. But please don't limit my right to express my opinion about what has occurred here.
Another thread has recently been locked following a similar discussion, albeit on somewhere less than amicable terms. Thats because the instant that any of these Jetstar guys are critisized, they turn the thread into a slanging match. Now, I will certainly admit that over the years, I have done my fair share of sledging.
But my challenge to everyone on this Bulletin Board is this. Lets debate this topic, without resorting to sledging. Without playing the man. But lets have some serious answers.
To all Jetstar pilots. Are you aware that you have degraded pilot salary and conditions in Australia for the forseeable future?
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Proplever,
I got a question. What do you propose the guys and girls do who for whatever reason cannot get into Qantas do?
The same person who's flogged their proverbial out in the bush flying C207's and the like earning just barely the Award? You know, the folks that have stacked shelves, poured beers to earn the money to get a CPL.
Leave them earning crap wages because if they take a job with Jetstar or Virgin Blue they are shattering the conditions of the aussie airline pilot.
From an outsider who's still a member of the AFAP (and BALPA) I think your QF union dropped the ball when it came to the regionals and dare I say it, Impulse.
You are asking a question that a bloke earning barely $20-25K or if they are really lucky and on the twins (or FO on a Bandit) earning $33-35K do they knock back a chance to fly a jet earning more?
As for the guys in Impulse. What do you want them to do? Go on the dole? Say "no, I'm affecting the QF guys". Somehow I don't think it's going to happen. Yes I have a few friends in Qandom and they aren't happy about what's going on but why blame the jetstar guys? I would channel your energy to getting your union to attempt to fix the problem. (However, you first have to identify the problem.)
Me? I'm in the UK trying to batter down the attitude here that turboprop pilots aren't total newbies....
I got a question. What do you propose the guys and girls do who for whatever reason cannot get into Qantas do?
The same person who's flogged their proverbial out in the bush flying C207's and the like earning just barely the Award? You know, the folks that have stacked shelves, poured beers to earn the money to get a CPL.
Leave them earning crap wages because if they take a job with Jetstar or Virgin Blue they are shattering the conditions of the aussie airline pilot.
From an outsider who's still a member of the AFAP (and BALPA) I think your QF union dropped the ball when it came to the regionals and dare I say it, Impulse.
You are asking a question that a bloke earning barely $20-25K or if they are really lucky and on the twins (or FO on a Bandit) earning $33-35K do they knock back a chance to fly a jet earning more?
As for the guys in Impulse. What do you want them to do? Go on the dole? Say "no, I'm affecting the QF guys". Somehow I don't think it's going to happen. Yes I have a few friends in Qandom and they aren't happy about what's going on but why blame the jetstar guys? I would channel your energy to getting your union to attempt to fix the problem. (However, you first have to identify the problem.)
Me? I'm in the UK trying to batter down the attitude here that turboprop pilots aren't total newbies....
To all Jetstar pilots. Are you aware that you have degraded pilot salary and conditions in Australia for the forseeable future?
But that MUST have been OK, right??
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Thanks for the reply's guys.
Fair question, red. But let me turn it around. What do you propose that they do? Do you propose that we all run around undercutting each other whilst carrying out what is effectively the same job? Where would that end? We must set and maintain a satisfactory level, and Jetstar deal doesn't even come close.
I propose that the Jetstar people stop working for what is effectively slave wages. They need to negotiate - hard - for more. I believe that they should have held out for a better deal. I accept that that deal may never have quite reached the QF pay scale, but it most certainly could and should have been better than it was.
Wiz. I can't answer that one. I'm afraid I have no idea what you are talking about. Keg may have an answer for you, but I sure don't. But, I don't think that "going rate" was anywhere near the incredible low set by Jetstar.
What do you propose the guys and girls do who for whatever reason cannot get into Qantas do?
I propose that the Jetstar people stop working for what is effectively slave wages. They need to negotiate - hard - for more. I believe that they should have held out for a better deal. I accept that that deal may never have quite reached the QF pay scale, but it most certainly could and should have been better than it was.
Wiz. I can't answer that one. I'm afraid I have no idea what you are talking about. Keg may have an answer for you, but I sure don't. But, I don't think that "going rate" was anywhere near the incredible low set by Jetstar.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
pl, may I suggest that you don't really give a fig about the salaries (and conditions) of Impulse and JetStar pilots.
You are only concerned about the probable flow-on effects that may affect YOU in the (near) future.
Would that be correct?
So instead of advising EVERYBODY else not to take a job that pays less than your's, why not try shoring up the very people with whom you now work to stand firm when the onslaught occurs!
It seems to me that you are trying to pre-place the blame for YOUR future (expected) failure to maintain YOUR conditions, on others.
What are YOUR plans, when the sycthe starts swinging?
How willing are YOU going to be to stand your ground and refuse to take a pay cut?
You are only concerned about the probable flow-on effects that may affect YOU in the (near) future.
Would that be correct?
So instead of advising EVERYBODY else not to take a job that pays less than your's, why not try shoring up the very people with whom you now work to stand firm when the onslaught occurs!
It seems to me that you are trying to pre-place the blame for YOUR future (expected) failure to maintain YOUR conditions, on others.
What are YOUR plans, when the sycthe starts swinging?
How willing are YOU going to be to stand your ground and refuse to take a pay cut?
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Right Kapt, but only to a certain extent. In isolation, I couldn't give a damn about the Jetstar pilots. But, viewing the entire situation, their decision to accept this disgusting packageHAS attected us all, and will continue to do so for the forseeable future.
What can I do? Not much, but lobby. I AM lobbying AIPA, I am lobbying my compatriots, and I don't mind rattling this tree. I'm also preparing for a career elsewhere, because this one seems to be going fast downhill in terms of remuneration and respect from the company.
What else would you suggest I do, Kapt?
What can I do? Not much, but lobby. I AM lobbying AIPA, I am lobbying my compatriots, and I don't mind rattling this tree. I'm also preparing for a career elsewhere, because this one seems to be going fast downhill in terms of remuneration and respect from the company.
What else would you suggest I do, Kapt?
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Proplever, as the " official spokesperson for your company", I would suggest you ask some tough questions of your representitive union. It was they who blocked all efforts to amalgamate in the early days. I would suggest if that if a Rats Ar$e had been given then by you and your mates/ reps, that this would not have happened.
I am at a loss to see why you keep flogging the horse. It has ben established on many other threads by level headed debate as to why and how jetstar came about.
Your continued insistance on bagging jetstar pilots only serves to highlight your ignorance and typical big organisation head in the sand attitude. I think quite frankly that most posters are very tired of your childish stirring comments and deriding tones. I would suggest that, as we have already seen here, most of your work mates have backed away from you and your comments because of the repettive childlike insistance on your point of view. You give airline pilots a bad name lever.
I am at a loss to see why you keep flogging the horse. It has ben established on many other threads by level headed debate as to why and how jetstar came about.
Your continued insistance on bagging jetstar pilots only serves to highlight your ignorance and typical big organisation head in the sand attitude. I think quite frankly that most posters are very tired of your childish stirring comments and deriding tones. I would suggest that, as we have already seen here, most of your work mates have backed away from you and your comments because of the repettive childlike insistance on your point of view. You give airline pilots a bad name lever.
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Agree with some of your points red, however..... As a member of AIPA and also Balpa I can see many reasons why AIPA should be trying hard to represent ALL pilots in Australia ala Balpa. I think their figures are something like 7500+ members represented over 26 companies. Not a bad effort and the results driven by the team of negotiators seem to be excellent.
As we know, the situation in Australia will always be an adequate (at worst) or oversupply (normal) of pilots. This is the problem. Easyjet, Ryanair achieved good levels of pay without union representation initially. It would be nice to get a copy of the pay scale comparisons that are published by Balpa to give a guide to the relative pays of 'legacy' vs 'lowcost/no frills'. Some will be suprised to see that it isn't that huge a difference over there. Somehow this hasn't filtered down to the bretheren in this part of the world and instead, prostitution continues.
Unfortunately, the scene has been set and without some smart thinking by everyone, the pimps will be taking all the cash whilst the people on the street will get less and less.
As we know, the situation in Australia will always be an adequate (at worst) or oversupply (normal) of pilots. This is the problem. Easyjet, Ryanair achieved good levels of pay without union representation initially. It would be nice to get a copy of the pay scale comparisons that are published by Balpa to give a guide to the relative pays of 'legacy' vs 'lowcost/no frills'. Some will be suprised to see that it isn't that huge a difference over there. Somehow this hasn't filtered down to the bretheren in this part of the world and instead, prostitution continues.
Unfortunately, the scene has been set and without some smart thinking by everyone, the pimps will be taking all the cash whilst the people on the street will get less and less.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Fair point proplever, most of these folks in jetstar have seen what undercutting does in GA. Unfortunately, as what happened with them in Impulse, no one genuinely cares. There are some great employers in GA but not every one can work for them.
What union looks after the jetstar guys? To be effective then it would have to be pretty powerful.
This suggestion will be very distasteful in Australia but funnily enough it works reasonably well in the UK. Get rid of seniority. A captain working for X airlines can keep command (or be on a fast track) if s/he goes to another airline. They are effectively trading their skills on the open market. A high time FO in a slow progression company can take their skills to another and fast track to command or even go in as a direct entry command. What this has done is ensure the salaries are kept reasonably high.
If what is happening and the jetstar wages are low. Then as soon as the captains have a reasonable amount of time then they can jump to eg Virgin Blue and keep their command status. Therefore to keep the crew jetstar would have to increase the salaries. What would really shake it up if the command time on Dash 8's were recognised and those guys were offered a fast track command in Jetstar. Absolutley no reason why it can't happen and it does happen in Europe.
Many Aussies and Kiwis have kept their command when they left the southern hemisphere and now working as captains for various companies in the UK. Most of the companies here realise to attract captains and high time FO's, they have to offer something reasonable.
From what I can tell in BALPA, the legacy companies have seniority, the new "lo-co's" don't. It isn't perfect but it does acknowlegde previous experience whereas strict seniority won't.
Loozr, have to agree with you regarding T&Cs. A BA A319 captain has a similar salary to a lo-co captain. (Albeit with different perks and pensions). Main diff, it doesn't take ~ 5-10 years to get command in a Lo-Co.
good luck.
What union looks after the jetstar guys? To be effective then it would have to be pretty powerful.
This suggestion will be very distasteful in Australia but funnily enough it works reasonably well in the UK. Get rid of seniority. A captain working for X airlines can keep command (or be on a fast track) if s/he goes to another airline. They are effectively trading their skills on the open market. A high time FO in a slow progression company can take their skills to another and fast track to command or even go in as a direct entry command. What this has done is ensure the salaries are kept reasonably high.
If what is happening and the jetstar wages are low. Then as soon as the captains have a reasonable amount of time then they can jump to eg Virgin Blue and keep their command status. Therefore to keep the crew jetstar would have to increase the salaries. What would really shake it up if the command time on Dash 8's were recognised and those guys were offered a fast track command in Jetstar. Absolutley no reason why it can't happen and it does happen in Europe.
Many Aussies and Kiwis have kept their command when they left the southern hemisphere and now working as captains for various companies in the UK. Most of the companies here realise to attract captains and high time FO's, they have to offer something reasonable.
From what I can tell in BALPA, the legacy companies have seniority, the new "lo-co's" don't. It isn't perfect but it does acknowlegde previous experience whereas strict seniority won't.
Loozr, have to agree with you regarding T&Cs. A BA A319 captain has a similar salary to a lo-co captain. (Albeit with different perks and pensions). Main diff, it doesn't take ~ 5-10 years to get command in a Lo-Co.
good luck.
One of the problems in Australia that doesn't exist in Europe - anecdotally I believe at least - is the progression in GA and the salaries that are paid in GA. The problem here starts right at the bottom of the ladder.
I think most people know my position on Jetstar but, that said, I left GA as a ME IFR GR1 earning 26k a year, some 18k below the award. It's therefore a bit rich for me to now start preaching to some poor bastard or bastette in the same situation that they shouldn't take that 70k a year jet job. I know that they're worth more than that, but I also know that most GA pilots are worth a lot more than they're on. Until there is an Australia wide union (sound familiar!) with the industrial muscle and balls to bring all pilots under the one umbrella and prevent undercutting in GA, the airline situation will continue to deteriorate. That means if Joe Bloggs in Horn Island is getting paid under the award, he can expect the support of 2,500 QF pilots and however many DJ, Rex, Eastern, Sunnies etc. pilots we can find.
It's a culture that's so entrenched in GA - offering less than someone else to do the job - that it was inevitable it would spill over. It's time to put this one behind us and try and work togther, and this means largely AIPA and the AFAP (as distasteful as it may be for some) to ensure that the Australian pilots now and of the future are remunerated appropriately for their work.
I think most people know my position on Jetstar but, that said, I left GA as a ME IFR GR1 earning 26k a year, some 18k below the award. It's therefore a bit rich for me to now start preaching to some poor bastard or bastette in the same situation that they shouldn't take that 70k a year jet job. I know that they're worth more than that, but I also know that most GA pilots are worth a lot more than they're on. Until there is an Australia wide union (sound familiar!) with the industrial muscle and balls to bring all pilots under the one umbrella and prevent undercutting in GA, the airline situation will continue to deteriorate. That means if Joe Bloggs in Horn Island is getting paid under the award, he can expect the support of 2,500 QF pilots and however many DJ, Rex, Eastern, Sunnies etc. pilots we can find.
It's a culture that's so entrenched in GA - offering less than someone else to do the job - that it was inevitable it would spill over. It's time to put this one behind us and try and work togther, and this means largely AIPA and the AFAP (as distasteful as it may be for some) to ensure that the Australian pilots now and of the future are remunerated appropriately for their work.
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Proppy,
I admire your persistence - I made the same arguments for a couple of weeks (months?) on these forums last year and eventually gave up.
Australia is a land of tall poppy cutters, and in Australian aviation, there is only one tall poppy left - Qantas!
Many posters blame AIPA for separating itself from the AFAP in the leadup to the 89 dispute. Those who were in the Association at that time (and have spoken to me about it) said that they could see where the AFAP was heading at the time and didn't want to be a part of it. As a group, that is surely their right! But once again, I'm sure, there will be many here who feel that they were just gutless, Company lackies!
The dispute eventually ended and left pilots in a very weakened and paranoid state - to my recollection there were no other major union organsiations who supported the pilots, becuase they were seen as greedy silvertails who didn't really fit the blue collar union image. Remeber too, that this bitter dispute was fought out under the tutelage of a LABOR government!
In recent years, industrial leverage has swung even more in favour of employers, and they have used this advantage to establish extensive part-time and casual workforces. These workers have very few conditions - sick leave, annual leave or penalty rates - and this environment has created an atmosphere where workers feel that they are "lucky" to have a job. They are lead to think only about their own circumstances rather than thinking of themselves as a collective group. I suggest that this phenomenon is probably a legacy of the rampant, militant unionism of the '70s.
In the current era, workers now feel that they have to compete with other for the "luxury" of a fulltime job. At QF, instead of being valued employees who fill the vital role of securing our employer's revenue, we are continuously barraged by the fact that we are their "biggest expense" and that we must continue to lose our conditions in order to remain competitive. To me, it is very sad that airlines now boast about being cheaper than each other, rather than offering a superior product. Low Cost carriers - who should be termed Low Wage carriers - are cropping up as the new sweatshops of aviation.
Meanwhile, the travelling public doesn't give a toss and would fly with "Air Bulgaria" - if they asked to operate in Australia and offered cheaper seats. Mind you, they still expect to get in-seat entertainment, complimentary meals and drinks and newspapers, despite travelling on tickets prices that would have been cheap for a bus in the 1980s. The airlines continue to believe that they have to offer this, but how can they afford it? "We're not competitive, we have to cut wages and conditions further!!"
So now Jetstar has set a new low for worker's conditions - "to remain competitive". Hell, there'll be pilots who'd still fly for less money just to get into a new jet - ask Next Generation! The employers know this and also know that QF pilots are in the vast minority. The pilot body is fractured and infighting is everywhere. AIPA missed the boat in representing Impulse pilots - there is no doubt about that. But, contrary to what Col Kurtz believes, AIPA does not actually ring me up and ask me what they should do! I also happen to be fairly busy raising my own family and don't have a lot of time to pre-empt what my employer will do on the industrial battlefield! If the action that they take is legal in accordance with Industrial legislation, I will NOT risk my family's future to fight on behalf of those who would undercut me.
And so we come to the Impulse/Jetstar situation. Proppy, when you mention that many Impulse pilots didn't meet QF recruitment standards, you are correct. But saying that here will just make you an "arrogant, eltitist QF w*nker". We now have AIPA negotiating conditions on behalf of Jetstar/Impulse pilots when we have no industrial coverage of them. And what are these pilots most concerned about? - gaining access to mainline seniority numbers and jobs. Boy! That'll really go down well with the Regional boys and girls! The only answer, of course, is to have mainline seniority numbers for all QF group pilots, and I sincerely hope that this is part of the package that is put to a vote later this year.
In the interim, Redsnail asks a very valid question - where do new licence holders go for a job. Should they haul around in GA on subsistence pay so as not to put pressure on QF conditions? Of course that situation is not going to happen - but ultimately this may be where the cycle stops. Because, ladies and gents, would you advise your children to take flying lessons for anything other than enjoyment? The days of a well-paid flying career are probably over - just look at Jetstar. Pay a $30,000 endorsement out of your own pocket to fly as an F/O on $60-70000 a year? How many years would it take just to break even? So, IMHO, this cycle will not end until the intakes at flying schools drop through the floor and GA dies a slow, painful death - some would say that that process may be starting to happen now. Only with a pilot shortage will conditions improve.
In the interim, pilots will continue to undercut each other and backstab each other just to get one of those "valuable" jet jobs. Hell, if there's to be a strike, the Colonel believes that it should be QF pilots who man the barricades and fight an industrial war to the death - after all, if those "arrogant, eltitist, QF w*nkers are all sacked, there'd be more jet jobs available, and probably even on a slightly higher rate of pay.
Proppy - sadly, the Australian aviation community - at least those who post on this forum - don't see QF pilots as the last bastion of good pay and conditions for airline flying in this country. To paraphrase Monty Python, they would gladly "cut us in 'alf with an axe and dance on our graves singin' halleluljah." Then they would undercut each other to secure our jobs at a vastly reduced payscale and convince each other that those "arrogant, eltitist QF w*nkers" had it coming to them! And their conditions would not improve until there were no longer any Next Generations behind them who would further undercut them!!
So Proppy, I admire your persistence and tenacity! Keep fighting the good fight as long as your blood pressure holds out - you will have at least one supporter.
I admire your persistence - I made the same arguments for a couple of weeks (months?) on these forums last year and eventually gave up.
Australia is a land of tall poppy cutters, and in Australian aviation, there is only one tall poppy left - Qantas!
Many posters blame AIPA for separating itself from the AFAP in the leadup to the 89 dispute. Those who were in the Association at that time (and have spoken to me about it) said that they could see where the AFAP was heading at the time and didn't want to be a part of it. As a group, that is surely their right! But once again, I'm sure, there will be many here who feel that they were just gutless, Company lackies!
The dispute eventually ended and left pilots in a very weakened and paranoid state - to my recollection there were no other major union organsiations who supported the pilots, becuase they were seen as greedy silvertails who didn't really fit the blue collar union image. Remeber too, that this bitter dispute was fought out under the tutelage of a LABOR government!
In recent years, industrial leverage has swung even more in favour of employers, and they have used this advantage to establish extensive part-time and casual workforces. These workers have very few conditions - sick leave, annual leave or penalty rates - and this environment has created an atmosphere where workers feel that they are "lucky" to have a job. They are lead to think only about their own circumstances rather than thinking of themselves as a collective group. I suggest that this phenomenon is probably a legacy of the rampant, militant unionism of the '70s.
In the current era, workers now feel that they have to compete with other for the "luxury" of a fulltime job. At QF, instead of being valued employees who fill the vital role of securing our employer's revenue, we are continuously barraged by the fact that we are their "biggest expense" and that we must continue to lose our conditions in order to remain competitive. To me, it is very sad that airlines now boast about being cheaper than each other, rather than offering a superior product. Low Cost carriers - who should be termed Low Wage carriers - are cropping up as the new sweatshops of aviation.
Meanwhile, the travelling public doesn't give a toss and would fly with "Air Bulgaria" - if they asked to operate in Australia and offered cheaper seats. Mind you, they still expect to get in-seat entertainment, complimentary meals and drinks and newspapers, despite travelling on tickets prices that would have been cheap for a bus in the 1980s. The airlines continue to believe that they have to offer this, but how can they afford it? "We're not competitive, we have to cut wages and conditions further!!"
So now Jetstar has set a new low for worker's conditions - "to remain competitive". Hell, there'll be pilots who'd still fly for less money just to get into a new jet - ask Next Generation! The employers know this and also know that QF pilots are in the vast minority. The pilot body is fractured and infighting is everywhere. AIPA missed the boat in representing Impulse pilots - there is no doubt about that. But, contrary to what Col Kurtz believes, AIPA does not actually ring me up and ask me what they should do! I also happen to be fairly busy raising my own family and don't have a lot of time to pre-empt what my employer will do on the industrial battlefield! If the action that they take is legal in accordance with Industrial legislation, I will NOT risk my family's future to fight on behalf of those who would undercut me.
And so we come to the Impulse/Jetstar situation. Proppy, when you mention that many Impulse pilots didn't meet QF recruitment standards, you are correct. But saying that here will just make you an "arrogant, eltitist QF w*nker". We now have AIPA negotiating conditions on behalf of Jetstar/Impulse pilots when we have no industrial coverage of them. And what are these pilots most concerned about? - gaining access to mainline seniority numbers and jobs. Boy! That'll really go down well with the Regional boys and girls! The only answer, of course, is to have mainline seniority numbers for all QF group pilots, and I sincerely hope that this is part of the package that is put to a vote later this year.
In the interim, Redsnail asks a very valid question - where do new licence holders go for a job. Should they haul around in GA on subsistence pay so as not to put pressure on QF conditions? Of course that situation is not going to happen - but ultimately this may be where the cycle stops. Because, ladies and gents, would you advise your children to take flying lessons for anything other than enjoyment? The days of a well-paid flying career are probably over - just look at Jetstar. Pay a $30,000 endorsement out of your own pocket to fly as an F/O on $60-70000 a year? How many years would it take just to break even? So, IMHO, this cycle will not end until the intakes at flying schools drop through the floor and GA dies a slow, painful death - some would say that that process may be starting to happen now. Only with a pilot shortage will conditions improve.
In the interim, pilots will continue to undercut each other and backstab each other just to get one of those "valuable" jet jobs. Hell, if there's to be a strike, the Colonel believes that it should be QF pilots who man the barricades and fight an industrial war to the death - after all, if those "arrogant, eltitist, QF w*nkers are all sacked, there'd be more jet jobs available, and probably even on a slightly higher rate of pay.
Proppy - sadly, the Australian aviation community - at least those who post on this forum - don't see QF pilots as the last bastion of good pay and conditions for airline flying in this country. To paraphrase Monty Python, they would gladly "cut us in 'alf with an axe and dance on our graves singin' halleluljah." Then they would undercut each other to secure our jobs at a vastly reduced payscale and convince each other that those "arrogant, eltitist QF w*nkers" had it coming to them! And their conditions would not improve until there were no longer any Next Generations behind them who would further undercut them!!
So Proppy, I admire your persistence and tenacity! Keep fighting the good fight as long as your blood pressure holds out - you will have at least one supporter.
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Three Bars
WOW! insightfully and calmly put. Elephant stamp for you and the others.
It is not our job to endorse or support one view or the other and neither do I here, save to say to all, keep up the "good work" in rational and well reasoned, but tough PPRuNe style debate, rather than the "eye poking and gouging" routine that has been the standard elsewhere of late.
There are some uncomfortable truths?? in the employment world today we are all affected by them one way or the other, the road to effective union as a profession is first paved with the roadbase of understanding and accepting each others position and journey to "there" wherever "there" is for them.
WOW! insightfully and calmly put. Elephant stamp for you and the others.
It is not our job to endorse or support one view or the other and neither do I here, save to say to all, keep up the "good work" in rational and well reasoned, but tough PPRuNe style debate, rather than the "eye poking and gouging" routine that has been the standard elsewhere of late.
There are some uncomfortable truths?? in the employment world today we are all affected by them one way or the other, the road to effective union as a profession is first paved with the roadbase of understanding and accepting each others position and journey to "there" wherever "there" is for them.
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Three bars. You do have some valid points. At the end of the day the winners are management. Division yes, one focused goal, well no. I think this was the end result the the higher ranks wanted.
Did any of us see this coming. Yes. Do any of us see whats coming next. Most likely. Its very easy to point the finger at a small group of pilots. At the end of the day. With no big brother representation, and might I add backed into a no win corner, what would you have done?
Cheers DM
Did any of us see this coming. Yes. Do any of us see whats coming next. Most likely. Its very easy to point the finger at a small group of pilots. At the end of the day. With no big brother representation, and might I add backed into a no win corner, what would you have done?
Cheers DM
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The bottom line
Just out of curiosity, can anyone post an accurate figure as to what sort of dollars crews with Virgin and Jetstar are making. I'm not talking about how much to the cent but just a reasonably accurate figure as to what is getting paid. Also, what sort of dollars are required in type ratings to get that job in the first place.
Such as Virgin. Type rating cost: $30K, Captain makes $ 90K, FO makes 40K etc. etc.
Just be intersted to see what dollars we are talking here.
cheers
Vic.
Such as Virgin. Type rating cost: $30K, Captain makes $ 90K, FO makes 40K etc. etc.
Just be intersted to see what dollars we are talking here.
cheers
Vic.
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DM,
I will preface my response by saying, again, that with hinsight, AIPA dropped the ball on not getting Impulse coverage right from the start. AIPA, as well as its members, has been trying to navigate a course through new, complex waters that we, as a group, have never encountered before. At the time of Impulse's incorporation (absorption?) into the QF group, there were many issues on the burner that were probably preceived as being more important - from memory it was the debate over 737-800s (flown by QF pilots) or A320s (possibly flown by new-hires) for the domestic network. The trees were very prominently in front of the forest with the fullness of 20/20 hindsight.
AIPA managed to avert the A320 question until the advent of Jetstar. I think what irks Proppy (and others) is that the Jetstar deal was presented as a fait acompli - already agreed to by the Impulse Pilot Council - in a deal that is seen by many as a "rollover" on the part of your representatives. I do not begrudge anyone's right to take the actions that they consider to be in the best interest of their family - family must be the number one priority. However, I think that many QF pilots feel that there could have been a little more resistance. While I am not on the AIPA COM and so not fully aware of the processes that had gone on to that point, I feel that, given the circumstances, the IPC may have been able to secure AIPA membership if it had again sought this out during the initial Jetstar negotiations.
QF pilots are, I think, much more fair-minded than some people would like to think. There was no dancing in the streets when Ansett collapsed. And I would hope that those Ansett pilots who have since joined QF have not encountered the ogres that they were expecting. The huge turnout at the AIPA Special AGM on Jetstar would have convinced anyone as to the importance of the Jetstar situation to QF pilots - the desire to see coverage of all QF-group pilots into AIPA was clearly expressed. The fact that the Impulse "deal" was presented as no longer negotiable has made many QF pilots feel that the IPC sold-out, when a little firmer resolve - or another approach to AIPA - could have led to a better outcome for all.
I will preface my response by saying, again, that with hinsight, AIPA dropped the ball on not getting Impulse coverage right from the start. AIPA, as well as its members, has been trying to navigate a course through new, complex waters that we, as a group, have never encountered before. At the time of Impulse's incorporation (absorption?) into the QF group, there were many issues on the burner that were probably preceived as being more important - from memory it was the debate over 737-800s (flown by QF pilots) or A320s (possibly flown by new-hires) for the domestic network. The trees were very prominently in front of the forest with the fullness of 20/20 hindsight.
AIPA managed to avert the A320 question until the advent of Jetstar. I think what irks Proppy (and others) is that the Jetstar deal was presented as a fait acompli - already agreed to by the Impulse Pilot Council - in a deal that is seen by many as a "rollover" on the part of your representatives. I do not begrudge anyone's right to take the actions that they consider to be in the best interest of their family - family must be the number one priority. However, I think that many QF pilots feel that there could have been a little more resistance. While I am not on the AIPA COM and so not fully aware of the processes that had gone on to that point, I feel that, given the circumstances, the IPC may have been able to secure AIPA membership if it had again sought this out during the initial Jetstar negotiations.
QF pilots are, I think, much more fair-minded than some people would like to think. There was no dancing in the streets when Ansett collapsed. And I would hope that those Ansett pilots who have since joined QF have not encountered the ogres that they were expecting. The huge turnout at the AIPA Special AGM on Jetstar would have convinced anyone as to the importance of the Jetstar situation to QF pilots - the desire to see coverage of all QF-group pilots into AIPA was clearly expressed. The fact that the Impulse "deal" was presented as no longer negotiable has made many QF pilots feel that the IPC sold-out, when a little firmer resolve - or another approach to AIPA - could have led to a better outcome for all.
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One of the things that most casual observers (and greedy GA wannabees) overlooked in 1989 - was that the work conditions enjoyed by the domestic & QF pilots then were a works in progress. Airline pilot conditions of service had not always been grand. They were the result of decades, even generations of hard work, tough negotiation and incremental improvement. The pilots of those eras understood solidarity. They stood together and the commonwealth rose through time as a result.
What Australia needs now is to re-invent the wheel.
AIPA & AFAP need to bury the past and get together as a comprehensive pilot union. Then they can join IFALPA and get on with the task of rebuilding, what was dashed by a greedy few in the last months of 1989. The task of the airline pilots in Australia today (QF + DJ + Jetstar) is to start the long slow task of rebuilding good terms and conditions of employment. Sadly it will take decades, even generations. But step one is to understand the need for solidarity. And then to translate that understanding into a comprehensive, cohesive body to represent pilots (from GA to Jumbos).
If this happened - I might even contemplate coming back to work in Australia again, because I might have finally regained some respect for Australian pilots.
p.s. I have always retained membership of the AFAP (after 15 years abroad) and am proudly a member of HKALPA and IFALPA.
What Australia needs now is to re-invent the wheel.
AIPA & AFAP need to bury the past and get together as a comprehensive pilot union. Then they can join IFALPA and get on with the task of rebuilding, what was dashed by a greedy few in the last months of 1989. The task of the airline pilots in Australia today (QF + DJ + Jetstar) is to start the long slow task of rebuilding good terms and conditions of employment. Sadly it will take decades, even generations. But step one is to understand the need for solidarity. And then to translate that understanding into a comprehensive, cohesive body to represent pilots (from GA to Jumbos).
If this happened - I might even contemplate coming back to work in Australia again, because I might have finally regained some respect for Australian pilots.
p.s. I have always retained membership of the AFAP (after 15 years abroad) and am proudly a member of HKALPA and IFALPA.
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Proplever
I'm not involved in Oz aviation, and the problem you guys have is not having an impact on me yet. I am just watching with interest as an Ozmate O/S.
There is no simple answer to your problems, but I think you gave a valuable insight when you let your guard down on the, 18th of May, and said "In isolation, I couldn't give a damn about the Jetstar pilots. "
That, I'm afraid, is a major problem. Until you guys develop genuine concerns for your fellow man, you are buggered. It is of no use to suddenly be concerned about someone elses situation just because it is about to affect you.
Solidarity is about looking after each other all the time, not just when your own pay packet is starting to look shaky.
If the union had taken the lesser mortals under their mighty wings 10 or 15 years ago, for no other reason than to help them, today you might be in a completely different situation.
I cant help but be little skeptical about the motives of many of the poster here. Are they genuinely concerned about all of their fellow aviators, or have they suddenly become concerned because it has just dawned apon them that their immediated future is now somewhat clouded.
dmf
I'm not involved in Oz aviation, and the problem you guys have is not having an impact on me yet. I am just watching with interest as an Ozmate O/S.
There is no simple answer to your problems, but I think you gave a valuable insight when you let your guard down on the, 18th of May, and said "In isolation, I couldn't give a damn about the Jetstar pilots. "
That, I'm afraid, is a major problem. Until you guys develop genuine concerns for your fellow man, you are buggered. It is of no use to suddenly be concerned about someone elses situation just because it is about to affect you.
Solidarity is about looking after each other all the time, not just when your own pay packet is starting to look shaky.
If the union had taken the lesser mortals under their mighty wings 10 or 15 years ago, for no other reason than to help them, today you might be in a completely different situation.
I cant help but be little skeptical about the motives of many of the poster here. Are they genuinely concerned about all of their fellow aviators, or have they suddenly become concerned because it has just dawned apon them that their immediated future is now somewhat clouded.
dmf
Last edited by druckmefunk; 18th May 2004 at 10:00.
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Once again 3 bars. Well put. I am certainly not aware, nor pretend to be, of the behind the scenes " deals". I think that "a little more resolve " would have ended the iminent employment of all at Impulse. I think the IPC did the best they could under the circumstances. Once again, a united front would have been a much better proposal.
At the end of the day, all stick pointing and name calling aside, I would like to hope that this can still be achieved for the benefit of all those involved. AND all those pilots still to progress into the airline group. With attitudes like proplevers still out there, this will be made so much harder.
Having been involved some 15 yrs ago, I have seen first hand the consequences of allowing ones self to be suckered into the he said/she said game. As educated adults, negotiation is the only way forward for us all.
Cheereo DM.
At the end of the day, all stick pointing and name calling aside, I would like to hope that this can still be achieved for the benefit of all those involved. AND all those pilots still to progress into the airline group. With attitudes like proplevers still out there, this will be made so much harder.
Having been involved some 15 yrs ago, I have seen first hand the consequences of allowing ones self to be suckered into the he said/she said game. As educated adults, negotiation is the only way forward for us all.
Cheereo DM.
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I haven't posted on Pprune before but after dwelling on it for most of the day I feel compelled to throw in my 10 cents worth.
Firstly, 3 bars and HIALS....excellent posts. You raise some good points.
Proplever,
Your obsession for completely and utterly bagging out the Jetstar pilot group at every opportunity has me completely dumb-founded. It has been going on for a (very) long while now and.....WE GET THE POINT!!
Jetstar pilots are a useless bunch of scabs, prostitutes, whatever and they have degraded conditions for all future airline pilots.
Right.... gotcha....we're all clear on that one.
Is it beyond the realms of possibility that we can move on?
Please.....?
I could not agree more! Could we please have this debate without unnecessary vitreolic, derogatory references to any one pilot group?
This is a worthwhile debate - let's not demean it.
Woomera
Firstly, 3 bars and HIALS....excellent posts. You raise some good points.
Proplever,
Your obsession for completely and utterly bagging out the Jetstar pilot group at every opportunity has me completely dumb-founded. It has been going on for a (very) long while now and.....WE GET THE POINT!!
Jetstar pilots are a useless bunch of scabs, prostitutes, whatever and they have degraded conditions for all future airline pilots.
Right.... gotcha....we're all clear on that one.
Is it beyond the realms of possibility that we can move on?
Please.....?
I could not agree more! Could we please have this debate without unnecessary vitreolic, derogatory references to any one pilot group?
This is a worthwhile debate - let's not demean it.
Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 18th May 2004 at 22:50.
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Geez rocks off, you may take the heat off proppy with that one.
DM, you make valid points, the person I agree with the most here is three bars - however DM, to turn around now and be humble is a bit rich from the Impulse guys - I mean seriously, did you guys consider the fate of the QF regional guys in all this to name but a few? No.
Proppy is right, the Impulse guys have taken a dump in the collective nest, meanwhile Dicko is just doing what he does naturally - playing us off all against one another.
DM, you make valid points, the person I agree with the most here is three bars - however DM, to turn around now and be humble is a bit rich from the Impulse guys - I mean seriously, did you guys consider the fate of the QF regional guys in all this to name but a few? No.
Proppy is right, the Impulse guys have taken a dump in the collective nest, meanwhile Dicko is just doing what he does naturally - playing us off all against one another.