Jetstar and Pay Scales
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HGW
Frieght was not in place at Virgin from day one, in fact it only came in until a few years after startup.
Virgin kicked up a massive stick over the cost of the Sydney terminal. Brett Godfrey was constantly wining over the cost of operating there. This whinging continued into this year with Virgin Bluing about the NCC decision on the Sydney Terminal.
Check out
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ydney+Terminal
That was Jan 30 this year!! Hardly years ago.
Transfers between flights become more complex as your network grows. This also can affect on time performance as the flights are delayed waiting for connections.
The reason that wages at LCC are lower than other carriers is because the staff let them be that way. If ALL the staff stood together then then there would not be a problem. Unfortunately Pilots are unable to stick together and as a result wages are commencing a downward spiral for a job that has unbelievable levels of responsibility, performance monitoring, lifesyle distruption and medical restrictions compared to most others.
Frieght was not in place at Virgin from day one, in fact it only came in until a few years after startup.
Virgin kicked up a massive stick over the cost of the Sydney terminal. Brett Godfrey was constantly wining over the cost of operating there. This whinging continued into this year with Virgin Bluing about the NCC decision on the Sydney Terminal.
Check out
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ydney+Terminal
That was Jan 30 this year!! Hardly years ago.
Transfers between flights become more complex as your network grows. This also can affect on time performance as the flights are delayed waiting for connections.
The reason that wages at LCC are lower than other carriers is because the staff let them be that way. If ALL the staff stood together then then there would not be a problem. Unfortunately Pilots are unable to stick together and as a result wages are commencing a downward spiral for a job that has unbelievable levels of responsibility, performance monitoring, lifesyle distruption and medical restrictions compared to most others.
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Scud
First piece of commercial freight travelled on a Virgin flight exactly two weeks after the innaugral flight, not years later as you say. Currently averaging 115 tonnes per week out of SYD and 100 tonnes into SYD.
The whinge at terminal costs in January was backed up by QF and Rex as they are all worried the charges will spiral upwards without any checks. Are QF and Rex whingers also?.
Connecting flights and transferring pax have been operating for over three years. I think they should have worked it out by now.
VB staff are now the second highest paid staff next to QF with some positions on equal pay rates. Have a go at Express Ground Handling, Jetstar and Rex (Aerocare) for low pay. Remember, no one is forced to work at these places, they choose to. Lets all stand together, as you say, and price ourselves off the market or make it unsustainable like Ansett staff did.
You comment on things you obviously do not know about and still haven't answered my question. Why should there be different pay scales for the 717, 737, 320.
First piece of commercial freight travelled on a Virgin flight exactly two weeks after the innaugral flight, not years later as you say. Currently averaging 115 tonnes per week out of SYD and 100 tonnes into SYD.
The whinge at terminal costs in January was backed up by QF and Rex as they are all worried the charges will spiral upwards without any checks. Are QF and Rex whingers also?.
Connecting flights and transferring pax have been operating for over three years. I think they should have worked it out by now.
VB staff are now the second highest paid staff next to QF with some positions on equal pay rates. Have a go at Express Ground Handling, Jetstar and Rex (Aerocare) for low pay. Remember, no one is forced to work at these places, they choose to. Lets all stand together, as you say, and price ourselves off the market or make it unsustainable like Ansett staff did.
You comment on things you obviously do not know about and still haven't answered my question. Why should there be different pay scales for the 717, 737, 320.
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So, should I bother asking what happened to the "calling a spade a spade" thread?
Let me guess. Someone from Jetstar decided that vitriol against those who would dare to question him wasn't quite enough, and went over the top?
Let me guess. Someone from Jetstar decided that vitriol against those who would dare to question him wasn't quite enough, and went over the top?
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I can not find any press release or heard of any comment from QF on whole terminal issue. Virgin are the only people who have been publicly complainuig about moving into the old Ansett terminal.
As for freight if you reckon that VB had freight from day one then that has been a very well kept secret. Their website used to say VB didn't handle freight but will be in the future. From what I know they didn't have freight for a while but you are obviously better connected than I.
As for connecting pax I'm not saying that VB don't do it well all I'm saying is that by having connecting pax then this can effect your ontime performance. One reason Jetstar won't be doing it at this stage.
AS for the different pay scales well that just comes down to what each individual group negotiates for. I think that the guys at Jetstar have probably undersold themselves a tad, and in hindsight maybe should have stood up to management a bit like baggage handlers did.
Traditionally speaking aircraft pay scales went up as the MTOW increased. This roughly represents an increase in responsibility of the PIC. It is also an issue of economy of scale ie there are more people to pay for the 747 caprtains hourly wages than the pax in a Dash 8.
At the end of the day my point is that LCC sound all great now but as they grow and mature then they become like a traditional airline which effectively means that they haven't succeeded in being a LCC but just an easy way of driving everyones wages except for senior managements through the floor.
I can not find any press release or heard of any comment from QF on whole terminal issue. Virgin are the only people who have been publicly complainuig about moving into the old Ansett terminal.
As for freight if you reckon that VB had freight from day one then that has been a very well kept secret. Their website used to say VB didn't handle freight but will be in the future. From what I know they didn't have freight for a while but you are obviously better connected than I.
As for connecting pax I'm not saying that VB don't do it well all I'm saying is that by having connecting pax then this can effect your ontime performance. One reason Jetstar won't be doing it at this stage.
AS for the different pay scales well that just comes down to what each individual group negotiates for. I think that the guys at Jetstar have probably undersold themselves a tad, and in hindsight maybe should have stood up to management a bit like baggage handlers did.
Traditionally speaking aircraft pay scales went up as the MTOW increased. This roughly represents an increase in responsibility of the PIC. It is also an issue of economy of scale ie there are more people to pay for the 747 caprtains hourly wages than the pax in a Dash 8.
At the end of the day my point is that LCC sound all great now but as they grow and mature then they become like a traditional airline which effectively means that they haven't succeeded in being a LCC but just an easy way of driving everyones wages except for senior managements through the floor.
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I think that the guys at Jetstar have probably undersold themselves a tad
Adama, with your constant histrionics and condescending attitude, I think that it is you that needs to grow up a little........ matey ! You'll find Proppy has the support of the silent majority.
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Proplever. Aresti is quite correct. There are many of us out here who have neither the time nor the inclination to argue this, but we do reflect generally what you are saying. Our pay is on a downward spiral and our fellow pilots are doing nothing to stem the tide. They will reap what they sow, but unfortunately, so will we.
Guys like adama (I note that your last post blasting proppy was deleted - I assume by Woomera), do absolutely nothing to help the cause. They come across as churlish, immature and obnoxious. Adama and all of you who care to critisise without adding to the discussion, when will you realise that proplever et al's comments will help you in the long run? He seems to me to be highlighting the situation that we are all in.
And guys n gals? IMHO, this is not about QF vs DJ vs JQ. This is about the leaky boat in which we all sail precariously. It's about to take on more water, real soon, unless we do something about it.
My 2 cents worth.
Guys like adama (I note that your last post blasting proppy was deleted - I assume by Woomera), do absolutely nothing to help the cause. They come across as churlish, immature and obnoxious. Adama and all of you who care to critisise without adding to the discussion, when will you realise that proplever et al's comments will help you in the long run? He seems to me to be highlighting the situation that we are all in.
And guys n gals? IMHO, this is not about QF vs DJ vs JQ. This is about the leaky boat in which we all sail precariously. It's about to take on more water, real soon, unless we do something about it.
My 2 cents worth.
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They do it very, very quietly, Itchy.
Nice to see your contribution deleted, adama. Like I have previously stated, personalities like yours should be regarded as extremely suspect in an airline cockpit. Matey... you must realise that your argument just doesn't stand up when all you do is throw vitriol at anyone who has the impunity to say what you do is wrong?
Exactly right, scud. You guys in the IPG should attempt to understand this point. In the end, you are doing the exact same job as your QF bretheren. So, are they being paid to much? Or have you guys jumped in and undermined the whole system?
Nice to see your contribution deleted, adama. Like I have previously stated, personalities like yours should be regarded as extremely suspect in an airline cockpit. Matey... you must realise that your argument just doesn't stand up when all you do is throw vitriol at anyone who has the impunity to say what you do is wrong?
At the end of the day my point is that LCC sound all great now but as they grow and mature then they become like a traditional airline which effectively means that they haven't succeeded in being a LCC but just an easy way of driving everyones wages except for senior managements through the floor.
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Proplever. I guess you would take responsibilty for jet connect getting up and going. Obviously you didnt stand up for you rights then. Note: they are payed less than Jet* pilots. Did your inactions, as a group, directly contribute to your frazzled state now?
OH thats right I forgot that you dont actyually enter into debate here anymore. As a well known sydney radio personality does, you dictate terms to other parties. Keeping the dream alive lever?
OH thats right I forgot that you dont actyually enter into debate here anymore. As a well known sydney radio personality does, you dictate terms to other parties. Keeping the dream alive lever?
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I use brylcream, DM. Means I never get frazzled. And, yep, you're right. Jetconnect is a woeful state of affairs too. But, wait. I did complain bitterly to AIPA when that occurred. Though AIPA's performance is another thread in itself, really.
Not entering into debate any more? Nah, thats my old self. Now I'm back to mending the worlds problems. Like, Jetstar and Jetconnect, and stuff like that...
Not entering into debate any more? Nah, thats my old self. Now I'm back to mending the worlds problems. Like, Jetstar and Jetconnect, and stuff like that...
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Horses for Courses
I'm not trying to wind anyone up here but salaries of $85000 and $129000 are actually not too bad I thought. I think the mistake that a lot of you make is to get shirty when some expat signs a pay deal in Asia worth four times more than a local LCC pilot is offered. Big deal. Every country and airline are different. There is no reason for every pilot expect to get the same thing. In the same way, pilots jump into jobs in A320's in Europe with 215 hours total time. Do you see that happening here? Not a chance. Don't compare chalk with cheese. My view is that if you are on $100K in Australia then you are doing OK. Want more money and think you deserve it? Put your money where your mouth is, pack up and go fly for someone that will pay you what you reckon you deserve. Good luck.
That's my two cents well spent anyway.
That's my two cents well spent anyway.
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So, should I bother asking what happened to the "calling a spade a spade" thread?
Let me guess. Someone from Jetstar decided that vitriol against those who would dare to question him wasn't quite enough, and went over the top?
Furthermore, I have not shown favour to anyone from Jetstar (or anywhere else) in my moderating of these threads. As a matter of fact, this Woomera (Eastern States) is also under pressure by the creation of Jetstar, but not on the QF "mainline" side of the scales. Therefore, the effect on me and my colleagues is greater than the effect on you and yours, Proplever.
The long-short of it is that if you people can't behave like adults toward each other and sort out your differences, then threads that follow this line of degenerating to personal infighting are either going to be closed or deleted. End of story.
Take your grievances to QREWROOM, post under your real names and see how long they (or you) last. Wake up to yourselves.
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So what happens when a thread goes into "ADMIN"? We never see it again? Why not just delete it?
Serious question to the protagonists:
Do you, on either side, feel you're getting anywhere with the on-going diatribe here on prune?
One hopes so.
Serious question to the protagonists:
Do you, on either side, feel you're getting anywhere with the on-going diatribe here on prune?
One hopes so.
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Imagine you are a Dixon, Joyce or Godfey and you have just read this thread.
What would you be thinking?
(For those who don't get my point : you do yourselves no favours here)
What would you be thinking?
(For those who don't get my point : you do yourselves no favours here)
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there does seem to be two sides of the coin here, and more often then not arguments give way to constructive dialogue. i am curious what would it take for say qantas, jetstar and virgin blue to have some sort of loosely based committee of sorts, i am of the understanding that qantas and jetstar are curently in talks, but what about virgin blue as well, the way i see it is that in the australian domestic market that if everyone was getting a similar wage then the powers that be have very little argument to try and undercut wages, perhaps this would mean some sort of pay cut to qantas and a pay rise to virgin and jetstar, now i know that a lot of people from qantas would diagree with this, but would it not give quicker promotion and security to your job for the longer term. it does seem at the moment that qantas pilots do have there back to the wall, but further alienation of jetstar would seem only to play right into managements hands. further more i do not know of any details but there is one world alliance and star, why is there not some sort of (dare i say the word) union between these groups, if it is okay for the company and the ceo's then why not for the pilots?
this is only my opinion and please can no one come back with, but if it was'nt for jetstar or why did the union not take jetstar under there wing earlier blah blah blah. please the thread started out on a good note, can we keep it this way.
this is only my opinion and please can no one come back with, but if it was'nt for jetstar or why did the union not take jetstar under there wing earlier blah blah blah. please the thread started out on a good note, can we keep it this way.
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Interesting that my post on page 2 seems to have been removed so i'll repeat it. What are the pay scales, and are they going to hire direct entry captains on the 320. I would gladly give up a large tax free sand pit salary to have the chance of coming home. I would like the world but i settle for a lot less.
and before any qa crew stab at me, try having to work 5000 miles from home for a living.
and one for the moderator who removed my earlier post. Why?
and before any qa crew stab at me, try having to work 5000 miles from home for a living.
and one for the moderator who removed my earlier post. Why?
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Propy,
National Jet read Airlink have been operating Jets under contract to Qantas for some years now, have you seen the pay and conditions they work under! It all started long long ago and AIPA are the ones to blame, they have ignored the progression and coverage issues for a so long it has now come back to bite them, they have to seek coverage of all Qantas pilots, if that means swallowing some pride and doing a deal with the AFAP then so be it, that will at least insure a better future for all Australian pilots.
National Jet read Airlink have been operating Jets under contract to Qantas for some years now, have you seen the pay and conditions they work under! It all started long long ago and AIPA are the ones to blame, they have ignored the progression and coverage issues for a so long it has now come back to bite them, they have to seek coverage of all Qantas pilots, if that means swallowing some pride and doing a deal with the AFAP then so be it, that will at least insure a better future for all Australian pilots.
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Itchybum,
moving a thread to Admin may be done for several reasons. Among these may be:
1. To allow a "cooling off" period for all concerned. By doing this, the thread can be re-instated at a later date, either as-is, or after Moderator input.
2. To allow a determination by Head Office if there are legal implications, which happens from time-to-time. Head Office may choose to delete the thread or take other action.
Dunnunda has been closed a couple of times as a result of threads going off on similar vitriolic tangents. We are trying to avoid this happening again.
Capice?
Woomera (Eastern States)
moving a thread to Admin may be done for several reasons. Among these may be:
1. To allow a "cooling off" period for all concerned. By doing this, the thread can be re-instated at a later date, either as-is, or after Moderator input.
2. To allow a determination by Head Office if there are legal implications, which happens from time-to-time. Head Office may choose to delete the thread or take other action.
Dunnunda has been closed a couple of times as a result of threads going off on similar vitriolic tangents. We are trying to avoid this happening again.
Capice?
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Been watching this thread for a while now. Time for my say.
Why do people attack Qantas after being turned down during their recruitment process. How is it that every person who is turned down by Qantas states categorically that the recruitment process is flawed. I know several people working for Jetstar who were turned down by Qantas, and from what I can tell, for very bloody good reason. These guys were useless. So, apart from finding these guys suitable on one pay scale, and not another, how is Qantas to blame for that? Now you may have some people working for you who are good operators. But you have some absolute clowns and rejects too. Yeah, so does Qantas I hear you say.
You Impulse blokes scream blue murder when propplever or Pete Conrad or someone has a go at you, but have you stopped to think about your situation? A significant percentage of you have been turned down by Qantas. Dont even bother telling me thats not true. It is. So, if you can't see why they are pi$$ed off at you for undercutting them, and pi$$ed off at the company for accepting it, then you will all suffer the consequences. And those consequences are sh1tful pay for the rest of your career.
As far as your rejects are concerned? Well, you really have to believe that if an airliner is going to have an accident in Oz, its going to be with you lot. Yeah, Qantas found a golf course, thats what you are going to remind me right? Watch this space. Jetstar and the A320 is not an airline that I'll be putting my family on.
Dont be at all surprised when AIPA members vote against you blokes joining, and vote against the 1 in 3 slots deal that seems to have been struck. I don't know of anyone who intends to vote yes.
Why do people attack Qantas after being turned down during their recruitment process. How is it that every person who is turned down by Qantas states categorically that the recruitment process is flawed. I know several people working for Jetstar who were turned down by Qantas, and from what I can tell, for very bloody good reason. These guys were useless. So, apart from finding these guys suitable on one pay scale, and not another, how is Qantas to blame for that? Now you may have some people working for you who are good operators. But you have some absolute clowns and rejects too. Yeah, so does Qantas I hear you say.
You Impulse blokes scream blue murder when propplever or Pete Conrad or someone has a go at you, but have you stopped to think about your situation? A significant percentage of you have been turned down by Qantas. Dont even bother telling me thats not true. It is. So, if you can't see why they are pi$$ed off at you for undercutting them, and pi$$ed off at the company for accepting it, then you will all suffer the consequences. And those consequences are sh1tful pay for the rest of your career.
As far as your rejects are concerned? Well, you really have to believe that if an airliner is going to have an accident in Oz, its going to be with you lot. Yeah, Qantas found a golf course, thats what you are going to remind me right? Watch this space. Jetstar and the A320 is not an airline that I'll be putting my family on.
Dont be at all surprised when AIPA members vote against you blokes joining, and vote against the 1 in 3 slots deal that seems to have been struck. I don't know of anyone who intends to vote yes.
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Looks like Pete Conrad or Prop has got another id. Can this clown.
What is written here amounts to libel. Please delete or I will forward to Jetstar.
What is written here amounts to libel. Please delete or I will forward to Jetstar.
Last edited by commander adama; 25th May 2004 at 23:50.