Jetstar and Pay Scales
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For the life of me I can't understand why so many comments relate to the IPG considering other pilot groups, regional or otherwise.
Many a contemptuous comment has been made about Impulse over the last few years. Most of the issues, as I understand them have been management ones but most of the PPRuNe vitriol has been directed at the pilots.
If the deity hadn't been smiling in their direction, so that they've ended up being Johnny-On-the-Spot, then there wouldn't be so much jealousy evident.
Many a contemptuous comment has been made about Impulse over the last few years. Most of the issues, as I understand them have been management ones but most of the PPRuNe vitriol has been directed at the pilots.
If the deity hadn't been smiling in their direction, so that they've ended up being Johnny-On-the-Spot, then there wouldn't be so much jealousy evident.
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redsnail - Could not agree more. Surely if we were like every other industry then individual employers would not be able to play us off so easily as those who were worth more would migrate elsewhere.
Alas, I think we are perhaps still 10 - 15 years off the point where this point of view will be more than just a fringe idea.
Many things amaze me about AIPA, like their attitude towards the A list drivers (ie their own), their attitude to 89' , their intense 'company mindedness' their lack of foresight on issues such as Jetstar etc. etc. I cannot point to why they have these attitudes, however it is certainly endemic.
A GA Union. What a great idea, maybe if we start with a solid wage foundation then pilots would be more aware of thier negotiating power.
Unfortunately this would require the assistance of AIPA and the AFAP and I am afraid that neither has that degree of forsight.
Alas, I think we are perhaps still 10 - 15 years off the point where this point of view will be more than just a fringe idea.
Many things amaze me about AIPA, like their attitude towards the A list drivers (ie their own), their attitude to 89' , their intense 'company mindedness' their lack of foresight on issues such as Jetstar etc. etc. I cannot point to why they have these attitudes, however it is certainly endemic.
A GA Union. What a great idea, maybe if we start with a solid wage foundation then pilots would be more aware of thier negotiating power.
Unfortunately this would require the assistance of AIPA and the AFAP and I am afraid that neither has that degree of forsight.
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Some very good discussion, and some very valid points raised. Couldn't agree more, Woomera. It's good to see this being tossed around rationally for a change.
Couple of points here. Firstly, DM. You seem to go on the offensive antime anyone states anything even remotely critical of Jetstar or Impluse. Offense is the best form of Defense?
A very good point, Three Bars. So, for all of those out there who seem to suggest that AIPA should have been more proactive in taking the IPG under it's wing, ask yourself, WHY? Impulse had already set very low standards with Jerry, flying the 717. So, why should (in principle) we (AIPA) have looked after them? Why should we continue to make attempts to do so?
Drunk, you must understand the context of this. You accuse me of not worrying about my fellow man, yet do you think for a minute that these IPG guys would give a second thought about knobbling a QF mainline pilot and taking his job. I don't think so. So, my point is this. By highlighting the poor deal that the IPG has accepted, and encouraging them to fight for a better deal, yes I'm looking after number one, but I'm also looking out for their interests and the interests of airline pilots Australia wide. I worry more about my fellow man than the IPG do. Rest assured of that.
Anything to contribute other than critisism, Rocks off?
Couple of points here. Firstly, DM. You seem to go on the offensive antime anyone states anything even remotely critical of Jetstar or Impluse. Offense is the best form of Defense?
I will NOT risk my family's future to fight on behalf of those who would undercut me.
"In isolation, I couldn't give a damn about the Jetstar pilots. "
Anything to contribute other than critisism, Rocks off?
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So does anyone know?
I was wondering, did anyone have any idea about what sort of pilot salary packages these new low cost pilots are being offered. With all the heated debate over scabs, and whores I am curious as to what degree of under cutting is going on and how that equates to what Ansett and QF drivers were pulling in back in '89. What does a Jetstar A320 pilot starting this year expect to take home and how much will it cost him in direct hard earned folding bucks to get trained to line?
This isn't a wind up or stir, I'd be curious to hear what a new start with VB or Jetstar is likely to take home?
cheers
Vic
This isn't a wind up or stir, I'd be curious to hear what a new start with VB or Jetstar is likely to take home?
cheers
Vic
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Just the facts; VB Capts $164,305.79 and F/Os $106,798.76 as at May 2004. Net about $8500 for Cpt and $5500 for an F/0. Surely the Pornstar guys could move a little closer to this?? 
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HIALS
The good people here would do well to read your posts carefully and thoughtfully.
Unfortunately few care or indeed even know about the history and lessons that could be learnt from flight-crew life PRE/POST the arrival of the "North American Contract" into Australia during the '60s and into the '70s.
They say aviation cycles but sadly in Australia aviation has cycled back some 40 years.
Still the sun keeps rising in the morning so there is always hope that one day again....just maybe...............
The good people here would do well to read your posts carefully and thoughtfully.
Unfortunately few care or indeed even know about the history and lessons that could be learnt from flight-crew life PRE/POST the arrival of the "North American Contract" into Australia during the '60s and into the '70s.
They say aviation cycles but sadly in Australia aviation has cycled back some 40 years.
Still the sun keeps rising in the morning so there is always hope that one day again....just maybe...............
Last edited by aiming point; 19th May 2004 at 13:00.
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Assuming your figures are correct E.P...in respect to annual salaries for Virgin pilots...
then what is the bitch about salaries???
I mean, we are talking serious money here!!
then what is the bitch about salaries???
I mean, we are talking serious money here!!
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amos,
serious money relative to what ???
what do you think the profession of pilot in this country and worldwide is worth ??
have a look at what isv being paid to pilots in north asia at the moment an then tell me if you think pilots arde overpaid in this country.
Jetstar is costing $1 billion to set up, to fly routes that in most cases are already serviced by QF group aircraft.
Joyce and his cronies at the top of the airline are all on $1 million per year +++ or very close to it.
Jetstar is about smashing pilot conditions and non-operational parasties doing evrything they can to 'cut pilots down to size' - not about low cost.
FS
serious money relative to what ???
what do you think the profession of pilot in this country and worldwide is worth ??
have a look at what isv being paid to pilots in north asia at the moment an then tell me if you think pilots arde overpaid in this country.
Jetstar is costing $1 billion to set up, to fly routes that in most cases are already serviced by QF group aircraft.
Joyce and his cronies at the top of the airline are all on $1 million per year +++ or very close to it.
Jetstar is about smashing pilot conditions and non-operational parasties doing evrything they can to 'cut pilots down to size' - not about low cost.
FS
Jetstar is about smashing pilot conditions and non-operational parasties doing evrything they can to 'cut pilots down to size' - not about low cost.
If some pilots spent less time thinking they were special, and remembered they are actually employees, then the results might be a little better.
The siege mentality is fruitless and quite frankly, childish in this day and age.
Bollocks ftrpt.........FS is quite correct in his last post. Pilots are still special, try operating an airliner without them. Without denigrating other professions, no one person is more critical to the flight than the pilot (an aircraft can get airborne if a manager or cleaner calls in sick but not if the pilot isn't there).
As with any industry, supply and demand will govern what pilots get paid. Globally the industry now must pay appropriately and pilots will move to where pay and conditions are better. You other post on The AA new route is prrof of this; Quote "The recent recruitment was for FO's to fill short notice vacancies (Dragonair)".
Unfortunately Australia is still slightly oversupplied with pilots and this has been reflected in the actions of managers naturally able to take advantage of this supply. Jetstar will simply be a training ground for pilots who will then take their endorsemnt and move O/S to where the demand is strong and conditions far superior.
Australia is also oversupplied with tall-poppy mentality, jealous and spiteful middle level management types who proliferate within larger airlines. They will continue to sprout crap like:
If some pilots spent less time thinking they were special, and remembered they are actually employees, then the results might be a little better. This of course would be fine if they applied the same rules to themselves, but of course like pigs at a trough they grab as many 'perfomance' bonusses as they can get at the expense of other employees.
Unlike many of the pilots they criticise, the indiviuals then often leave aviation having made their mark and money.
Aussie pilots need to unite as an industrial group (AIPA and AFAP) and take a cohesive stand against hypocritical and divisive managements. As a divided group all you will do is be able to waste energy writing on PPRUNE.
As with any industry, supply and demand will govern what pilots get paid. Globally the industry now must pay appropriately and pilots will move to where pay and conditions are better. You other post on The AA new route is prrof of this; Quote "The recent recruitment was for FO's to fill short notice vacancies (Dragonair)".
Unfortunately Australia is still slightly oversupplied with pilots and this has been reflected in the actions of managers naturally able to take advantage of this supply. Jetstar will simply be a training ground for pilots who will then take their endorsemnt and move O/S to where the demand is strong and conditions far superior.
Australia is also oversupplied with tall-poppy mentality, jealous and spiteful middle level management types who proliferate within larger airlines. They will continue to sprout crap like:
If some pilots spent less time thinking they were special, and remembered they are actually employees, then the results might be a little better. This of course would be fine if they applied the same rules to themselves, but of course like pigs at a trough they grab as many 'perfomance' bonusses as they can get at the expense of other employees.
Unlike many of the pilots they criticise, the indiviuals then often leave aviation having made their mark and money.
Aussie pilots need to unite as an industrial group (AIPA and AFAP) and take a cohesive stand against hypocritical and divisive managements. As a divided group all you will do is be able to waste energy writing on PPRUNE.
Bollocks ftrpt.........FS is quite correct in his last post. Pilots are still special, try operating an airliner without them. Without denigrating other professions, no one person is more critical to the flight than the pilot (an aircraft can get airborne if a manager or cleaner calls in sick but not if the pilot isn't there).
As with any industry, supply and demand will govern what pilots get paid. Globally the industry now must pay appropriately and pilots will move to where pay and conditions are better.
So is it a case of 'smashing pilot conditions and non operational parasites doing everything they can to cut pilots down to size'; or is it a case of supply and demand?
The recent recruitment was for FO's to fill short notice vacancies (Dragonair)".
Jetstar will simply be a training ground for pilots who will then take their endorsemnt and move O/S to where the demand is strong and conditions far superior.
like pigs at a trough they grab as many 'perfomance' bonusses
hypocritical and divisive managements
Aussie pilots need to unite as an industrial group (AIPA and AFAP) and take a cohesive stand
They also need to attack from a realistic standpoint - blaming the Impulse pilots and using terms like 'non-operational parasites' are hardly going to help win support for your position.
Im sure events such as:
- the demise of the 2 airline policy
- privatisation and listing on the stock market of Qantas
- the emergence of low cost airlines throughout the world
- 89
- more rigourous competition throughout the world
- Sep 11 and SARS
- changes to the industrial relations laws throughout the country
- threat of a 2nd low cost airline in Australia
- collapse of Ansett
have had nothing to do with the downward pressure of pilots conditions. No, its all a conspiracy by greedy, jealous management to cut the tall poppy pilots (after all they are so very special) down to size. Its so simple when everything is so black and white.
From FS' last post:
what do you think the profession of pilot in this country and worldwide is worth ??
have a look at what isv being paid to pilots in north asia at the moment an then tell me if you think pilots arde overpaid in this country.
Jetstar is costing $1 billion to set up, to fly routes that in most cases are already serviced by QF group aircraft
Joyce and his cronies at the top of the airline are all on $1 million per year +++ or very close to it.
Jetstar is about smashing pilot conditions and non-operational parasties doing evrything they can to 'cut pilots down to size' - not about low cost
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E.P.
Where do you get the figure of $164,000 from for a VB capt.
On the wagenet site, July 2004 - says that the cpat. salary is $129, 898
Are there other things that are calculated into the $164,000?
Where do you get the figure of $164,000 from for a VB capt.
On the wagenet site, July 2004 - says that the cpat. salary is $129, 898
Are there other things that are calculated into the $164,000?
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Figures from March 11 Memorandum sent out by John Raby. Includes super etc, therefore is the total package. 
I believe JRs package is around $600k plus the stock. Low cost huh? 
Just another point. Many of you in VB and Pornstar have never worked in "other" airlines so therefore will probably not care about this point. However, the profession of "Airline Pilot" is also being eroded by the way you present yourselves. PLEASE bring back the traditional uniforms, so pilots can at least "LOOK" as if they take some pride in their performance.
I can just see Russell (burp) Crow in the "low cost" uniform, as ambassador at large to the low cost carriers!!
I believe JRs package is around $600k plus the stock. Low cost huh? Just another point. Many of you in VB and Pornstar have never worked in "other" airlines so therefore will probably not care about this point. However, the profession of "Airline Pilot" is also being eroded by the way you present yourselves. PLEASE bring back the traditional uniforms, so pilots can at least "LOOK" as if they take some pride in their performance.
I can just see Russell (burp) Crow in the "low cost" uniform, as ambassador at large to the low cost carriers!!
Bottums Up
E.P., proplever et al
Rather than you guys repeatedly telling Jetstar/Virgin/NJS pilots how we're eroding the profession of piloting, why don't you prevail upon the leadership of your professional association to unite. Then invite us all (all CPL and ATPL holders) to join, and then work towards upgrading the status of professional pilots to where the collective group believes it should be.
It's getting really tiresome to hear those at the top of the heap berating us lower class plebs for taking the best deal we could negotiate for ourselves. Particularly when the big boys have repeatedly maintained a closed club.
Rather than you guys repeatedly telling Jetstar/Virgin/NJS pilots how we're eroding the profession of piloting, why don't you prevail upon the leadership of your professional association to unite. Then invite us all (all CPL and ATPL holders) to join, and then work towards upgrading the status of professional pilots to where the collective group believes it should be.
It's getting really tiresome to hear those at the top of the heap berating us lower class plebs for taking the best deal we could negotiate for ourselves. Particularly when the big boys have repeatedly maintained a closed club.
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Claret, please understand that no-one is berating you personally. A few individuals here are simply highlighting the ever decreasing standard of our pay and conditions as airline pilots.
Then guys like ftrpt come along and tell us that we actually are worth less. Personally and quite frankly, ftrplt, I'm apalled at your "cleaner" analogy, because you clearly don't understand what you have written.
Twenty five years ago, what would the ratio of an airline pilots salary in comparison to a cleaners salary have been? What would it be today? I would suggest to all of you that the margin has dramatically closed, to an extent where cleaners these days earn probably more even than some regional pilots.
YOU think this is RIGHT, ftrplt? You can rationalise this with all of the propaganda fed to you by management, but the extent of our decreasing remuneration is nothing short of criminal, and cannot be justified. Serious money, amos2? You must be joking.
Whatever the market will pay, ftrplt? Good lord, son. The market believes that they have every right to fly between Syd and Mel for $30. The market, if they had a choice would value YOU at zero. And after your comments, I do too.
Then guys like ftrpt come along and tell us that we actually are worth less. Personally and quite frankly, ftrplt, I'm apalled at your "cleaner" analogy, because you clearly don't understand what you have written.
Twenty five years ago, what would the ratio of an airline pilots salary in comparison to a cleaners salary have been? What would it be today? I would suggest to all of you that the margin has dramatically closed, to an extent where cleaners these days earn probably more even than some regional pilots.
YOU think this is RIGHT, ftrplt? You can rationalise this with all of the propaganda fed to you by management, but the extent of our decreasing remuneration is nothing short of criminal, and cannot be justified. Serious money, amos2? You must be joking.
Whatever the market will pay, ftrplt? Good lord, son. The market believes that they have every right to fly between Syd and Mel for $30. The market, if they had a choice would value YOU at zero. And after your comments, I do too.
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and pilots get paid significantly more than cleaners for that very reason (and cabin crew, load controllers, check in staff etc)
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Amos2, a QF S/O with a bit of time will get pretty close to those VB Capt salary figures and their "package" would exceed it.
QF Mainline is the last bastion of half reasonable pay and conditions in this country but it wont last. The company is successfully nibbling it away, demanding offsets for everything and soon will have cheap jet drivers on good equipment to wield as a big stick if they want. Just wait till Jetstar has a pile of Airbuses running around canabalising Qandom and the game will be on.
The mainline drivers are the deer in the company headlights and the best thing to do is use the temporary "good" conditions to set up alternative streams of income.
The Jetstar drivers are the darlings of management. They work cheap and accept what they are given. Can't ask for much more than that. AIPA gave them the cold shoulder when it counted and now can't rescue much from the train wreck. They probably can't spare too much time on the issue as getting seniority for non member non employed cadets is what's important
If AIPA negotiated 100% of Jetstar positions offered to mainline it wouldn't matter. No one in their right mind would go there on the current deal so the company would get the result they desired anyway.
Swotting the mossies while you are up to your a#$e in alligators springs to mind.
QF Mainline is the last bastion of half reasonable pay and conditions in this country but it wont last. The company is successfully nibbling it away, demanding offsets for everything and soon will have cheap jet drivers on good equipment to wield as a big stick if they want. Just wait till Jetstar has a pile of Airbuses running around canabalising Qandom and the game will be on.
The mainline drivers are the deer in the company headlights and the best thing to do is use the temporary "good" conditions to set up alternative streams of income.
The Jetstar drivers are the darlings of management. They work cheap and accept what they are given. Can't ask for much more than that. AIPA gave them the cold shoulder when it counted and now can't rescue much from the train wreck. They probably can't spare too much time on the issue as getting seniority for non member non employed cadets is what's important
If AIPA negotiated 100% of Jetstar positions offered to mainline it wouldn't matter. No one in their right mind would go there on the current deal so the company would get the result they desired anyway.
Swotting the mossies while you are up to your a#$e in alligators springs to mind.
and there are a few people here who dont read what is written..
there are plenty of people berating him personally
I have never said we are worth less; I have said the current market conditions and industrial landscape means that employers are able to offer us less with not much to counter it with.
I would love to get $500 000 a year, but unless the market is such that the employer has to pay me that - he just wont. It achieves nothing by getting all emotional about it and accusing other pilot groups of causing, just as it is pointless adopting a siege mentality about it. This wont stop it.
Possibly true, but what is your point?? Is that your argument, that just because the ratio has changed then you must pay us more? I can see management laughing at you now. I guess supply and Demand has nothing to do with maintaining the salary of the cleaner?
Where have i said I think it is 'right'? What is right and wrong about this anyway??? Im sure the shareholders think its 'right' just as you and others think its 'wrong'. I think its unfortunate that the industry is in this phase, but I dont think its 'right' or 'wrong'; its reality.
What I do think though, its not the fault of any pilot group and I dont believe that it has anything to do with 'smashing pilot conditions and cutting airline pilots down to size'.
You have just agreed with what I have been saying; this is one of the factors forcing downward pressure on conditions. Tell me the downward spiral on conditions has nothing to do with Supply and Demand then??
The old 'they are out to get me blinkers again'; no wonder you cant see the forest for the trees. Just a plain silly comment.
You show the typical response of the blinkered QF airline pilot; everyones out to get me, its all someone elses fault, management are over-paid cronies and Impulse pilots sold us down the river.
Claret, please understand that no-one is berating you personally
Then guys like ftrpt come along and tell us that we actually are worth less.
I would love to get $500 000 a year, but unless the market is such that the employer has to pay me that - he just wont. It achieves nothing by getting all emotional about it and accusing other pilot groups of causing, just as it is pointless adopting a siege mentality about it. This wont stop it.
Twenty five years ago, what would the ratio of an airline pilots salary in comparison to a cleaners salary have been? What would it be today? I would suggest to all of you that the margin has dramatically closed, to an extent where cleaners these days earn probably more even than some regional pilots
YOU think this is RIGHT, ftrplt? You can rationalise this with all of the propaganda fed to you by management, but the extent of our decreasing remuneration is nothing short of criminal, and cannot be justified. Serious money, amos2? You must be joking.
What I do think though, its not the fault of any pilot group and I dont believe that it has anything to do with 'smashing pilot conditions and cutting airline pilots down to size'.
Whatever the market will pay, ftrplt? Good lord, son. The market believes that they have every right to fly between Syd and Mel for $30.
The market, if they had a choice would value YOU at zero. And after your comments, I do too
You show the typical response of the blinkered QF airline pilot; everyones out to get me, its all someone elses fault, management are over-paid cronies and Impulse pilots sold us down the river.