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-   -   Airservices Australia Psychometric Testing (https://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/311440-airservices-australia-psychometric-testing.html)

craigieburn 20th Dec 2012 21:31

KiwiChick, you stated:

Craigieburn, not so - I think you'll find a fair majority of the SSOs are ex trainees
Maybe that is the case in the College/Academy, but I thought that Steve applied for a job at Brisvegas. I understand that a couple of ab initio courses are being run out of Brisbane, but using the op's room sim.
My comment about the nepotism/cronyism applies more to the operational sim.
In terms of ex-trainees being employed as blippies, I thought that the now departed ex bank manager decreed that no failed trainees were to be employed as blippies?

itsonlyagame 20th Dec 2012 21:51

Hi Phildan89 , could you give us an idea what the interview was like -- hoping to do mine in the new year
cheers

stevep64 20th Dec 2012 22:52


In terms of ex-trainees being employed as blippies, I thought that the now departed ex bank manager decreed that no failed trainees were to be employed as blippies?
Hopefully that's not the case now. I certainly wasn't discouraged from applying by the present manager. It was him that made me aware of the jobs coming up.

canadiangal75 21st Dec 2012 00:19

SSO
 
I had my rejection email for SSO all along.. I guess they send them in batches and it ended up in my junk mail. Heads up I guess, check your junk mail for communications from ASA.. :) Happy holidays to everyone and good luck!

fujii 21st Dec 2012 03:48

Kiwi chick posted: To the best of my knowledge, when we finish this module in a couple of weeks we will be rated as (equivalent) Flight Data/Flight Information officers and could technically go out and work in Class G airspace (as you said - asking the pilot instead of telling him).

This shows that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. A rating is something you get when you finish field training and you receive your first endorsement. E.g you may have an tower rating but only hold an SMC endorsement. When you leave the academy, you can't "technically go out and work" as anything until you do further training to obtain the endorsement.

In Australia we don't have Flight Data/Flight Information officers. We have Flight Data Coordinators and Air Taffic Controllers. Two very different jobs.

As for SSOs versus ATC selection criteria mentioned by others. Again, two different disciplines. An ATC trainee's exposure to the role of SSO is so limited that the comments in this forum reflect badly on the posters.

1Charlie 21st Dec 2012 03:58

Kiwi chick. When you finish your DTI course you won't be rated as anything. Don't make the mistake of thinking once you've made it to field training (assuming you do) that you'll have learned all you need to know. I'm not trying to be rude, just a quick reality check :-)

1Charlie 21st Dec 2012 03:59

Pipped at the post

Hempy 21st Dec 2012 04:20

I'll also add that it's wrong to assume that HR get it 50% wrong in selection based on the assumption that 50% of trainees fail. Trainees who are selected are simply 'suitable for training', not guaranteed potential rated controllers. Given the very small percentage of the general population that have the spatial reasoning, problem solving and processing speed skills required to make a successful ATC, the fact that HR can give us 5 ATC's for every 10 trainees that start (on the 50% assumption) is a pretty good strike rate tbh.

Duane 21st Dec 2012 04:58

Yeah, not too sure about the 50% hit rate people are saying is about right but even if it is, there are no tests other than passing the course that HR can give you. All HR are there to do are to test the wider population and fill courses with people who have a good chance of passing. I couldnt tell you after a 30 minute interview your chances of passing ATC course, because I cant test your skills that you will use in air traffic control in an interview, the only way to do that is...you guessed it, try air traffic control.

Anyway, the selection process for RAAF Pilot training is far more arduous and even that has something like an 80% attrition rate, it has such a high attrition rate because the job is hard, like ATC.

Something that you also cant test before training is how you deal with stress. A lot of people say to me when I tell them that I am an air traffic controller "I have heard that is a stressful job" so much that I am sick of it, but I had a think about it...acute stress (stress at the console) is something that people can either deal with well, or they do not. they either make clutch decisions under pressure or they do not, this can be assessed under simulation. What cannot; is dealing with the other stress ATC's deal with; that lingering stress that is there before you start work, and stays there somewhat after work. It is this stress that in my experience that destroys ATC careers, not being able to continue to deal with this stress that ends up getting the best of people. There are no tests for it, it just comes down to the person, some people might start experiencing this type of stress whilst still under training (at the academy) but find under field training, the accumulation of these stresses is too hard to deal with. Once again, this cannot be tested for, quite simply the road needs to be walked by the individual, and HR cannot be held accountable for these particular failures

stevep64 21st Dec 2012 06:08


As for SSOs versus ATC selection criteria mentioned by others. Again, two different disciplines. An ATC trainee's exposure to the role of SSO is so limited that the comments in this forum reflect badly on the posters.
Actually, I don't remember having to address any selection criteria for the ATC trainee job. I'll wait until I get feedback, but it may well have been a case of my not being very good at addressing the criteria, rather than not fitting the job. Especially since, as Duane said, the HR people are stretched to the limit.

fujii 21st Dec 2012 06:38

Steve, it was craigieburn.


craigieburn

Join Date: Jun 2011

Seriously, how can they tell you that you don't fit the selection criteria to be a blippie, yet you fitted the selection criteria to be trained as an ATC?
One of the 2 criteria is clearly wrong.

kiwi chick 21st Dec 2012 11:04

Canadiangal75, yes you are dead right – I am an air traffic control trainee.

I’ve not once pretended or professed to be anything more, anything less. My advice to you was as a) a successful applicant and b) an employee with some limited experience of the SSO job.

I even made a point of stating

“and I don't for one moment profess to be an expert”
I’m unsure where your hostility has come from, there was nothing directed as rude or disrespectful in any of my comments. Not once did I see you mention that you trained for a year in your previous job, and irrespective of that it doesn’t change the fact that we are doing similar things in our current stage of training.

(You stated

“do a job that is quite similar in Canada... air traffic services, flight service”
and

“I'm not sure you know what a flight service specialist actually does in Canada...”
so to show some respect and confirm my thoughts before commenting further, I looked it up. This was the result:
  • Provide pre-flight weather briefings after interpreting charts, reports and satellite imagery.
  • Assist with flight plan filing.
  • Provide information to help pilots to safely land and take-off from uncontrolled airports.
  • Stay in contact with pilots during their flights.
  • Communicate safety updates.
  • Provide hourly weather reports to Environment Canada forecasters for their predictions.
  • Trigger search and rescue activities for missing or overdue aircraft.)

Fuji says

“In Australia we don't have Flight Data/Flight Information officers”
which was why I was very careful to state

(equivalent) Flight Data/Flight Information”
referring to the service we are being taught to provide in a faux G Class airspace only.


"This shows that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. A rating is something you get when you finish field training"

When you finish your DTI course you won't be rated as anything
I did not pluck this from my backside ;) and I am under no illusions that I'm not even a quarter of the way through my college training. We were told by an instructor that "technically" at the end of DTI course we could be rated to work a Class G sector - if such a puppy existed.

(1Charlie, I didn't think you were being rude, and I thank you for "checking" :} )

I couldn't agree more with Le pingouin comment

“I suspect the Class G part leaves the trainees rather "underdone" “
as I myself would not for one minute be happy being set loose on a Class G sector - and have said as much to my instructors.

And despite the possible mis-interpretation of my comment

“Once we get rated to do that, we still have another nine months of training to be controllers”
I most certainly do not think that I will come out of college – if I indeed make it all the way through course – thinking that I know everything there is to know.

I have never, and hope to never be, that arrogant. :ok:

Having spent four hours a days, five days a week, for the last six weeks, working with SSO's (Blippies), (which I equate to around 120 hours) - and half of that time actually blipping - I made the executive decidion that it might just be OK to give my opinion of their role. After all, I got my PPL licence with less hours :ok:


Just remember, just because you made it to the academy, does not guarantee a licence. So understand a lot of hard work is required.
Finally, canadiangal75 - I know myself I would be much more disheartened missing out on a job that I was already experienced in, than I would be missing out on a job that was beyond my current skill and experience level.

My advice to you was offered as a genuine attempt in pointing out that to the best of my knowledge there is a fair difference in what you used to do as an FIS officer and what you would have been (or hopefully will be) doing as an Air Traffic Controller.

The intent and history of this thread has been dedicted to current and past applicants and trainees offering advice and information about the application process and initial training at the college.

That's what I am.

A trainee.

I understand the work ahead of me, I know the work I've done behind me, and I now have a tiny smidgeon of an idea of the career that will hopefully be on offer to me.

These are my posts and these are my opinions. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Kiwi Chick :ok:

skyfall78 21st Dec 2012 13:14

season's greeting
 
Wishing You guys joy, peace and love this holiday season..... :)


cheers

skyfall78 :ok:

Plazbot 21st Dec 2012 16:45

The correct term is 'Smelly'.

VH-ALX 21st Dec 2012 23:51

Santa has to do an IFR renewal prior to his annual present run. He had done the preflight, checked all the reindeer and sleigh and waited for the testing officer to arrive. Upon arrival Santa noticed that the testing officer had his usual kit ... Headphones, clipboard, paperwork etc. There was one extra piece of kit that Santa spotted . . . it was a shotgun. Rather alarmed Santa asked what the shotgun was for . . . . ''This is for our engine out procedure''' replied the testing officer.

An oldie but a goodie

Happy Xmas to all and may next year be kinder to us all.

kiwi chick 22nd Dec 2012 00:39

Thanks skyfall78, VL-ALX, same to you! :ok:

Countdown is ON, woohoo!! :D

shags_j 22nd Dec 2012 03:34

How funny is this entire thread?

:D

WhisprSYD 22nd Dec 2012 04:34


When you finish your DTI course you won't be rated as anything. Don't make the mistake of thinking once you've made it to field training (assuming you do) that you'll have learned all you need to know. I'm not trying to be rude, just a quick reality check :-)
Some decent advice. Having completed my training and rated in the last few months I'd say I learned more in the 3 months of field training than I did in 12 months at the academy, and then probably learned just as much again in the first month being rated..

I actually remember someone saying to me at the academy that after DTI you'd 'technically' be able to operate a class G only sector.. it's bollocks. In the DTI module you basically learn how to assess and pass traffic, have a token effort at providing FIS, and learn enough to pass the DTI exam. You'll learn plenty more in the HMI conversion course (where you can actually interact with flight plans) and then you'll get a shock to the system when you hit live class E/G traffic and you have to deal with airworkers, trainee pilots, random conversations and non scripted requests!

Looking back at it all now it's like the Academy was a 12 month testing process, with bits and pieces of valuable learning. You'll learn the background info, a few techniques, sep standards, and how to apply them which you'll use for the rest of your career... but other than that I think it's all about showing that you're a suitable candidate for field training. Passing your last check and getting out of the academy is an achievement, and as a result I think those who do get given plenty of opportunity to rate in the field, but don't think it's the last hurdle, because it's only the beginning.

Merry Xmas to all applicants and trainees in this thread.. enjoy your break while the rest of us are plugging away at the console

canadiangal75 23rd Dec 2012 09:43

How funny is this entire thread?
 
It sure is.. Forums can be quite entertaining... :)

Hempy 24th Dec 2012 11:23


How funny is this entire thread?
It sure is.. Forums can be quite entertaining... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/smile.gif
There's a little bit of humour, but I wouldn't call the whole thread either 'funny' or 'entertaining' (each to their own though I suppose). 'Informative' would probably the adjective I'd choose....with a little bit of 'bitter' and 'arrogant' thrown in on the side.

Merry Christmas!

INTERNATIONALATCO 24th Dec 2012 18:11

Pyscometric question:

Do you fart?

When do you fart?

why do you fart?

have you ever farted?

with whom have you ever farted?

Do you like farting?

Do Farts smell?

Do your farts smell?

Do you like farting?

LOL, making me self LMAO......... Hmmmm, I think this one will block my account... anyway.... it's a very basics of loony testing......:E

Roger Standby 25th Dec 2012 13:05

Hempy:cool:,

Who is the tosser telling students that after the DTI module they'd be ready for Class G? :rolleyes:


ATC students should be aware that working class G will bring you down a lot faster than working controlled airspace. The list of pitfalls is huge!

Hempy 26th Dec 2012 02:46

Roger,
I'm just as guilty as anyone, although it's used as a 'motivator' and explained that it's only a technical status (which, in fact, it is...in the same way that completing the procedural or radar modules technically qualifies you for field training on that airspace as well).
The sim check qualifies as an endorsement, not a rating.

Jack Ranga 27th Dec 2012 23:06

Re-inforcing the point RS has made, rather than students/trainees being told they are 'ready' for Class G they do a case study on the Benalla tragedy. Lives lost, careers lost. Class G.

It baffles why anybody would be told that 'technically' they could hold a rating on any class of airspace after a module in the academy. I was never told it. You see the results of these methods in trainees in the field. :ugh: some of them have the common sense to understand what they don't know. The ones that believe it? You can see the results of that on this forum, let alone in the field.

Hempy 28th Dec 2012 00:57

Jack, feel free to pop on over to Bldg 156 and have a say. Brand new management structure, I'm sure they'll welcome any advice as to how to turn out better field trainees.

Pauloswindon 31st Dec 2012 18:02

Information on Sydney TCU and Perth TCU
 
I have applied for the experienced controller positions advertised for Sydney and Perth. I have been searching the internet for information on both Sydney TCU and Perth TCU and have found some information but not a great deal. Does anyone know of any good websites with this sort of information?
I am interested in the different control positions in both TCU's and also interested in knowing which airports they are responsible for.
I would guess that Syndey would be resposible for Kingsford Smith, Camden and Bankstown, among others, and Perth would be responsible for Perth and Jandakot.
Any help is much appreciated.

On a different note, Happy New Year to everyone and good luck to anyone in the process of applying for a controllers position.

tobz92_ymen 1st Jan 2013 23:20

What is the normal time frame to hear back your assessment day outcome. Had my assessment over 3 weeks ago now in Canberra, and still haven't herd anything, is that normal?

phildan89 2nd Jan 2013 02:28

I don't know what the normal timeframe is regarding assessment day results, but it is the New Year holidays at the moment-the person who lets you know whether or not you got in is probably away on a beach somewhere! Give them a few weeks still to have their holidays and get things ticking over again.

barberwi 2nd Jan 2013 03:54

Well I take it they are back at work, as I got the phone call saying that I have a formal offer online. I'm on a train coming home from Chrissy so can't see it, but looks like they are back in the office

stevep64 4th Jan 2013 01:15

Ruth,

I'm not 100% sure, but I think they pay your removals once you move to the field. They will only pay fuel or airfares for your move to Melbourne though. We used a backloading company for our moves to and from Melbourne. It takes longer than a regular removal company, but works out a hell of a lot cheaper.

Congratulations by the way.:ok:

mont 4th Jan 2013 03:55

Think the way it works is that you get airfares or kilometres paid if you drive yourself to Melbourne about $0.70 per km depending on you car engine size. If you have nominated Brisbane as your home location then my understanding is that no assistance is provided to relocate to Brisbane if you finish the college. Best to check with P&C to confirm this.

le Pingouin 4th Jan 2013 09:14

Ruth, you also need to consider the statistics - you have a roughly 50% chance of rating. Plus or minus. A recent course was considerably below that average.

Come on your own?

In_Transit 4th Jan 2013 20:52

mont's right. They'll pay for either airfares or fuel for your move to Melbourne, but you're on your own for the move to Brisbane after the course finishes.

Nautilus Blue 6th Jan 2013 05:47

On a more positive note,

A recent course was considerably below that average.
must mean another course/courses had above average success, if you think about it :)

HellishFlame 7th Jan 2013 03:56

Hello everyone, my name is Trent, been lurking around these forums for a bit but haven't posted. I too have been trying to get into the ATC training program, and I just got my formal offer a couple of days ago. They want me to be in Melbourne on Feb 25th to begin the course, with my final location being Brisbane.

I was wondering if there's anyone else here who is doing the same course who might be interested in bunking up down in Melbourne. I don't know anyone down there, so I'll have to rent out a place, and I'd much rather be living with the people I'll be working with. If anyone is interested shoot me a message on here and we'll see if we can work something out.

shack87 8th Jan 2013 08:43

Hellish Flame, Check your PM's. I'm on the same course but will be looking for a fully furnished place. If anyone here knows of anywhere, please let me know!
Also a question to the guys who have started/finished their training. The USB you get given, is it those exact files you'll be studying initially, or is it just a good ballpark area for knowledge!

Hempy 8th Jan 2013 09:33


Originally Posted by shack87
The USB you get given, is it those exact files you'll be studying initially, or is it just a good ballpark area for knowledge! (sic)

http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/490...uirements.html

Hempy 10th Jan 2013 06:08

Ruth,

If you'd like to get some reading done my advice would be to download the AIP Book from the ASA website (it's free), and become familiar with pretty much all of the GEN and ENR sections. People have said on here that studying this information will only help you during the first 2 months (theory phase) of your training and not to bother. Well, while it is true that a LOT of the theory is derived straight from that book, I disagree with those posters. A lot of the information in that book will be relevant to you for the length of your career.

Then again, I've only been around 18+ years so I'm not sure I qualify as having a long career. Yet!

fujii 10th Jan 2013 06:40

Agree with Hempy, I've been around a bit longer (40 years) but non op now and AIP was/is a constant reference. Although some say it only helps for the first two months, if you are already familiar, it's a much easier two months. It is great to cross reference AIP with MATS and see how similar information is published in each. Doing that makes it easier to see how aircrews relate to ATC. When you get into the field, you will be referred to AIP during AIRAC amendment cycles. Operation controllers are required to remain familiar with AIP. If you have quiet time during a shift, flick through all types of documents. It's amazing how often you'll find something new of get a slightly different view of things. All the best for the course.

stevep64 10th Jan 2013 08:07

It's worth having a look at some of the links in this post http://www.pprune.org/7185789-post1907.html as well, especially if you don't have an aviation background.

I'll second what Hempy and Fujii said about the AIP, you'll use it a hell of a lot during the theory phase, but it's also knowledge you'll need when you get to the sim. The better you know it, the easier it'll be to recall it when you're under pressure. AIP GEN 3.4 is a good start.


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