Spanish ATC
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So what has changed? I've been flying around Europe for years, 90% of the time on direct tracks, always checking weight/wind/temps/weather and requesting flight levels accordingly, and most of the time I got what I requested. Sometimes I would have to change level later on due to traffic in another sector, but not often.
Total traffic is down after the economical crisis, but the service from ATC has gotten worse. I really hope this is because of some sort of industrial action as in Spain, but the French are doing the same, and now ATC are going to have a Flight Plan & ATFCM Adherence campaign in Europe???
Thanks a bundle, that will really help! Do I have to declare emergency in order to get a climb above weather/turbulence?
Average CFMU taxi times? So our knowledge of different airport does not count? Taxi time can vary by 10-15 minutes depending on parking position and runway in use. It is my responsibility to reach the runway according to slot, and I have to suffer the consequenses if I don't get there in time. It's not for ATC to tell me I can't get there in time when I'm ready to push 15-20 minutes before my slot!
I would also like to point out the obvious, there is a world of difference between ATC in UK and Maastrich, and ATC "further south". The latter being the ones that frustrate me the most.
The thing is, North European ATC should set the standard for the other ATC units, not the other way around!
Total traffic is down after the economical crisis, but the service from ATC has gotten worse. I really hope this is because of some sort of industrial action as in Spain, but the French are doing the same, and now ATC are going to have a Flight Plan & ATFCM Adherence campaign in Europe???
Thanks a bundle, that will really help! Do I have to declare emergency in order to get a climb above weather/turbulence?
Average CFMU taxi times? So our knowledge of different airport does not count? Taxi time can vary by 10-15 minutes depending on parking position and runway in use. It is my responsibility to reach the runway according to slot, and I have to suffer the consequenses if I don't get there in time. It's not for ATC to tell me I can't get there in time when I'm ready to push 15-20 minutes before my slot!
I would also like to point out the obvious, there is a world of difference between ATC in UK and Maastrich, and ATC "further south". The latter being the ones that frustrate me the most.
The thing is, North European ATC should set the standard for the other ATC units, not the other way around!
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Drex,
About Italy:
Us: Any chance direct GOTAR?
Padova ATC: What would be your track?
Us:104
Padova: OK cleared direct GOTAR, and we'll cordinate later...
ATC: FCO 16L in use.
Us: Any chance for 16R
ATC Sby.. (about 10 secs later) OK 16R approved (saved around 10 mins taxi time)
I always had the feeling that in Italy, everything is chaotic, BUT everything seems to work. I had the feeling that if something was rejected, there was always a reason.
Madrid: clear weather, no aircraft on RWY 33L, we were on 18NM final for 33R. Any chance for the other RWY? Instant reply NO! This answer costs our company around 20 extra mins taxi, which is around at least 200 kg fuel. We fly as well to VLC, BCN, PMI and a few other places but I have never seen so amateur controlling as in MAD (Spanish level 4 is min required, 5 and 6 reccomended in order to operate there safely)
About Italy:
Us: Any chance direct GOTAR?
Padova ATC: What would be your track?
Us:104
Padova: OK cleared direct GOTAR, and we'll cordinate later...
ATC: FCO 16L in use.
Us: Any chance for 16R
ATC Sby.. (about 10 secs later) OK 16R approved (saved around 10 mins taxi time)
I always had the feeling that in Italy, everything is chaotic, BUT everything seems to work. I had the feeling that if something was rejected, there was always a reason.
Madrid: clear weather, no aircraft on RWY 33L, we were on 18NM final for 33R. Any chance for the other RWY? Instant reply NO! This answer costs our company around 20 extra mins taxi, which is around at least 200 kg fuel. We fly as well to VLC, BCN, PMI and a few other places but I have never seen so amateur controlling as in MAD (Spanish level 4 is min required, 5 and 6 reccomended in order to operate there safely)
Join Date: Nov 2000
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Perhaps those controllers, particularly 10W, tempted to defend their colleagues from the South should try to get a jump seat ride on any flight in and out of Spain particularly Madrid. I know you don't get this now as duty time and have to arrange during a day off but believe me it will open your eyes. Come along for the ride and share in the frustration then try to defend a system no longer able to serve it's customers. Experience what a fully qualified 300,000 plus Euro Controller in Madrid deems a professional and competent service, believe me you will not defend them afterwards.
Beady Eye
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They stick us all into small corridors of their choosing and then earn a fortune keeping us apart in those corridors.
If there was no ATC, we'd find a way to work it out.
If there were no planes, ATC wouldn't exist.
ATC in general is a great example of a monopoly providing a poor service to paying customers who have no choice but to use it.
It makes them lazy and slow to adapt to the changing priorities of their customers.
Which is the dog, which is the tail?
BD
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No they should not.
Still should I as client of them be treated the way we are at the moment? Me donīt think so. Mr & Mrs. real good paid ATCO in their shiny towers not wanting to relay a ready message? Deliberately wrecking schedule like in "enjoy the view" īs example? Remembers me of the german 1973 'slow-go'.
Still should I as client of them be treated the way we are at the moment? Me donīt think so. Mr & Mrs. real good paid ATCO in their shiny towers not wanting to relay a ready message? Deliberately wrecking schedule like in "enjoy the view" īs example? Remembers me of the german 1973 'slow-go'.
The question about quality of service in general is something alltogether different though, and after having flown alternately to greece and spain in the last few months i have to say spain is fine compared to greece imo, really awful service and equipment status there.
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10W
Thank you for your reply to my post back on page 1. I agree totally with what you say and having worked for several years in airline operations and specifically ATC slots, I can just about remember some of the published taxi times for the various airfields (not many though). This gives me a good understanding now as to whether the Palma controller that day was being sensible or making a statement. I assure you without any doubt that it was the latter. It wasn't just us but several aircraft at the same time that were being denied pushback clearance literally because of a minute or two past EOBT.
For us, we were on the north side of the ramp, so we were close to the departure runway 24R. The 15 mins at Palma is designed to allow sufficient time for aircraft to taxi from the southwest side to 24R. There were no aircraft at the time at the holding point. We called for push and start at CTOT -10, so yes effectively 5 minutes after EOBT but 20 minutes prior to the slot expiry.
We must remember that the -5/+10 is not ours but the tool of the controller. However, aircraft turnarounds are far from an exact science and do need some flexibility where possible. This was neither and seems very unlikely to have any positive outcome for anyone.
I wish the controllers the best in settling their dispute but lets have some common sense.
B&B
Thank you for your reply to my post back on page 1. I agree totally with what you say and having worked for several years in airline operations and specifically ATC slots, I can just about remember some of the published taxi times for the various airfields (not many though). This gives me a good understanding now as to whether the Palma controller that day was being sensible or making a statement. I assure you without any doubt that it was the latter. It wasn't just us but several aircraft at the same time that were being denied pushback clearance literally because of a minute or two past EOBT.
For us, we were on the north side of the ramp, so we were close to the departure runway 24R. The 15 mins at Palma is designed to allow sufficient time for aircraft to taxi from the southwest side to 24R. There were no aircraft at the time at the holding point. We called for push and start at CTOT -10, so yes effectively 5 minutes after EOBT but 20 minutes prior to the slot expiry.
We must remember that the -5/+10 is not ours but the tool of the controller. However, aircraft turnarounds are far from an exact science and do need some flexibility where possible. This was neither and seems very unlikely to have any positive outcome for anyone.
I wish the controllers the best in settling their dispute but lets have some common sense.
B&B
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Ancient Priviledges and Reality Checks...
As members of state run organizations, Spanish and French ATC employees/ATCOs just naturally try to avoid by all means the erosion of their ancient priviledges by a far distant threat called single European sky. While again making every airlines/pilots and passengers life difficult these days, the costs imposed by those "strikes" are tremendous for all of us. Be it legacy , low cost or corporate carriers, we should take a united way of legal action and get our money back from those lacy and arrogant ATC clowns in Spain and France. No adequate service, no fees, period.
Diversion due to curfew at home base because of "capacity" induced delays, Pax and crew HOTAC, aircraft unavailable for next day rotations ? Send them the bill, the sooner we start, the better...
F.I.
Diversion due to curfew at home base because of "capacity" induced delays, Pax and crew HOTAC, aircraft unavailable for next day rotations ? Send them the bill, the sooner we start, the better...
F.I.
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To go a step further: make Eurocontrol pay for any "flow control delay" wich they cannot prove true and the losses made due to the "ash-cloud-theatre", They ask enough for their "service"....
Beady Eye
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I am not too familiar with the stakes with Spanish ATCOs. However French ATCOs, I know more about 
The reason they're carrying this action at the moment (a strike with no name as there is nothing official - how bold of them !!! They still get paid for buzzing those very people feeding them) is that they now have to sign in.
YES how can you expect from anyone to sign in at work ! This is slavery at work. And the reason signing in is such a disgrace to their eyes is that they used to surf on a system whereby people were simply called off from work during less dense trafic periods. Which means these people used to stay home but were still counted as active, working staff : getting paid for not working. How about that !!! This is called the "clearance" system, i.e. forget about coming to work today, you're cleared to dabble in all sorts of leisure activities, doing f...hole...
Now, the fact they have to sign in with their own ID card and not just waiving at the team as before means they have to take this "work method" out of their life style.
Their argument is "if you want to abide by the rules (i.e. signing in) so will we. All standard, no fuss, no search for improved flight tracks or flight levels. Nothing. All by the charts, obviously forgetting that speeding traffic flows is a hard part of their duty.
Now you know why you're airline is wasting so much money in France for these drama queens.
The reason they're carrying this action at the moment (a strike with no name as there is nothing official - how bold of them !!! They still get paid for buzzing those very people feeding them) is that they now have to sign in.
YES how can you expect from anyone to sign in at work ! This is slavery at work. And the reason signing in is such a disgrace to their eyes is that they used to surf on a system whereby people were simply called off from work during less dense trafic periods. Which means these people used to stay home but were still counted as active, working staff : getting paid for not working. How about that !!! This is called the "clearance" system, i.e. forget about coming to work today, you're cleared to dabble in all sorts of leisure activities, doing f...hole...
Now, the fact they have to sign in with their own ID card and not just waiving at the team as before means they have to take this "work method" out of their life style.
Their argument is "if you want to abide by the rules (i.e. signing in) so will we. All standard, no fuss, no search for improved flight tracks or flight levels. Nothing. All by the charts, obviously forgetting that speeding traffic flows is a hard part of their duty.
Now you know why you're airline is wasting so much money in France for these drama queens.
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Flow, Eobt, Ctot ...
From an ATC:
If Flight Plan has NO SLOT (IFR):
-the flight CAN NOT take-off before its EOBT (Estimated Off-Blocks TIme) (if your EOBT is 1000 you can be airborne at 1000 but not before)
- at EOBT + 15 minutes the Flight Plan is over, if you call for clearance after this time you will have to update your FPL
-at EOBT + 45 minutes the Flight is suspended automatically from Brussels (this causes many problems for ATC too)
-you may NOT request READY message, this only applies when you have a SLOT
If Flight Plan has a SLOT (IFR):
-pilot mus call at least X minutes before the SLOT for start up (X=taxitime, in LEPA it's normally 15 minutes)
-the range -5, +10 is for ATC use only (sequence at the holding point). The pilot should not demand the use of this from his stand. for example: SLOT 1015, if you call ATC at 1000 for start up and taxi for 15 minutes, you will reach holding point at 1015, if you are number 5, ATC uses the +10; however if you have SLOT at 1015 and you call at 1010 for start up and taxi for 15 minutes you arrive at holding point at 1025 and you are number 5, you will take off late
-if fully ready before your SLOT - 15 min , you may request READY message, ATC will file the message only if traffic permits (If there are too many departures, sending READY messages will only delay a greater number of aircraft waiting at the holding point)
I wanted to explain this because I hear many discussions with pilots on the frequency every day. When we request a pilot to update his FPL it is because we know he won't make it in time. On the other hand, if there is not much traffic and we can help out we will try to avoid this situation.
I hope you find this helpful........
---------------------------------------------------
FROM WHITE CUCUMBER:
"You may want to have a look at the Spanish AIP.
Spanish AIP (ENR 1.10-17)
"To acquire the appropriate data coherence and consistency
of traffic demand, which allow an optimum application
of airspace capacity and flow control measures,
even if the EOBT may be advanced in 15 minutes, take
off shall not be permitted before the EOBT. (The Taxi-time
can never be negative)."
Does it make any sense? I don't think so, but it is the law. "
If Flight Plan has NO SLOT (IFR):
-the flight CAN NOT take-off before its EOBT (Estimated Off-Blocks TIme) (if your EOBT is 1000 you can be airborne at 1000 but not before)
- at EOBT + 15 minutes the Flight Plan is over, if you call for clearance after this time you will have to update your FPL
-at EOBT + 45 minutes the Flight is suspended automatically from Brussels (this causes many problems for ATC too)
-you may NOT request READY message, this only applies when you have a SLOT
If Flight Plan has a SLOT (IFR):
-pilot mus call at least X minutes before the SLOT for start up (X=taxitime, in LEPA it's normally 15 minutes)
-the range -5, +10 is for ATC use only (sequence at the holding point). The pilot should not demand the use of this from his stand. for example: SLOT 1015, if you call ATC at 1000 for start up and taxi for 15 minutes, you will reach holding point at 1015, if you are number 5, ATC uses the +10; however if you have SLOT at 1015 and you call at 1010 for start up and taxi for 15 minutes you arrive at holding point at 1025 and you are number 5, you will take off late
-if fully ready before your SLOT - 15 min , you may request READY message, ATC will file the message only if traffic permits (If there are too many departures, sending READY messages will only delay a greater number of aircraft waiting at the holding point)
I wanted to explain this because I hear many discussions with pilots on the frequency every day. When we request a pilot to update his FPL it is because we know he won't make it in time. On the other hand, if there is not much traffic and we can help out we will try to avoid this situation.
I hope you find this helpful........
---------------------------------------------------
FROM WHITE CUCUMBER:
"You may want to have a look at the Spanish AIP.
Spanish AIP (ENR 1.10-17)
"To acquire the appropriate data coherence and consistency
of traffic demand, which allow an optimum application
of airspace capacity and flow control measures,
even if the EOBT may be advanced in 15 minutes, take
off shall not be permitted before the EOBT. (The Taxi-time
can never be negative)."
Does it make any sense? I don't think so, but it is the law. "
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Critical Situation In Spanish Sky
AENA (spanish airports and air navigation) and with the support of the spanish gov has developed several attacks to the ATCs for the last year, including the express services, in which you are forced to go to work within an hour or being fired if you reject it in your rest days.
In the last months the number of air traffic controllers with anxiety, depression and other diseases linked with job has raised by 4. Reasons for that worrying fatcs are, for example, the reduction of 40% of the staff every day to manage the same amount of air traffic; the increase of air incidents in more than 100% comparing with the last year. Personal licences granted for general workers like reduction of hours of work to take care little children are denied "for the general interest" !! .
And talking about SID, STARS, etc ... in last months in the spanish ACCs the maximum capacity on the sectors has been exceeded in more than 25% in a constant way and when the ATCs complained about that, AENA said the reason was the way of working of the ATCs due to the directs and changes of FL requested for the pilot and approved by the atc. So we took the decision of following the rules of Eurocontrol, when says:
Why is there a problem ?
EUROCONTROL - Flight Plan & ATFCM adherence
When investigating those occurrences in most cases it is found that the additional flights entered the concerned sector as a result of: ul.firstlevelbulletlist, ul.secondlevelbulletlist {list-style-image:url(/gallery/design/content/square02.gif);} .firstlevelbulletlist {padding-left: 30px} .secondlevelbulletlist {padding-left: 20px} In 35% of all ATFCM reported over-deliveries during 2008, the actual FL was different to the RFL in the Flight Plan. The network impact of this over-delivery can result in: ul.firstlevelbulletlist, ul.secondlevelbulletlist {list-style-image:url(/gallery/design/content/square02.gif);} .firstlevelbulletlist {padding-left: 30px} .secondlevelbulletlist {padding-left: 20px}
Spanish ATCs enjoy working in a flexible way trying to do their best for the pilots and companies (our customers), but nowadays the situation in Spain in really critical and we are only trying to defend our basic rights as workers and as proffesionals of the air industry. We do hope the rest of european colleages ( pilots and controllers ) know our situation and understand the decisions AENA force us to take. And, of course we do hope you donīt suffer the same mobbing we are facing to in a so-called democratic country.
Greetings and enjoy your flight,
In the last months the number of air traffic controllers with anxiety, depression and other diseases linked with job has raised by 4. Reasons for that worrying fatcs are, for example, the reduction of 40% of the staff every day to manage the same amount of air traffic; the increase of air incidents in more than 100% comparing with the last year. Personal licences granted for general workers like reduction of hours of work to take care little children are denied "for the general interest" !! .
And talking about SID, STARS, etc ... in last months in the spanish ACCs the maximum capacity on the sectors has been exceeded in more than 25% in a constant way and when the ATCs complained about that, AENA said the reason was the way of working of the ATCs due to the directs and changes of FL requested for the pilot and approved by the atc. So we took the decision of following the rules of Eurocontrol, when says:
Why is there a problem ?
EUROCONTROL - Flight Plan & ATFCM adherence
When investigating those occurrences in most cases it is found that the additional flights entered the concerned sector as a result of: ul.firstlevelbulletlist, ul.secondlevelbulletlist {list-style-image:url(/gallery/design/content/square02.gif);} .firstlevelbulletlist {padding-left: 30px} .secondlevelbulletlist {padding-left: 20px} - not flying at the initial requested flight level (RFL); or,
- departing at times different from the original estimated off block time (EOBT) or calculated take off time (CTOT); or,
- arriving in the sector earlier or later than originally planned; or,
- deviating from their original planned route; often direct routeing (DCT).
In 35% of all ATFCM reported over-deliveries during 2008, the actual FL was different to the RFL in the Flight Plan. The network impact of this over-delivery can result in: ul.firstlevelbulletlist, ul.secondlevelbulletlist {list-style-image:url(/gallery/design/content/square02.gif);} .firstlevelbulletlist {padding-left: 30px} .secondlevelbulletlist {padding-left: 20px} - wasted capacity in some sectors,
- potentially excessive workload,
- an overall lack of confidence in the accuracy of forecast traffic counts,
- protective capacity reduction,
- increased workload, stress or working conditions such that the ability of ATC controller may be significantly impaired and thus a safety issue.
Spanish ATCs enjoy working in a flexible way trying to do their best for the pilots and companies (our customers), but nowadays the situation in Spain in really critical and we are only trying to defend our basic rights as workers and as proffesionals of the air industry. We do hope the rest of european colleages ( pilots and controllers ) know our situation and understand the decisions AENA force us to take. And, of course we do hope you donīt suffer the same mobbing we are facing to in a so-called democratic country.
Greetings and enjoy your flight,
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Can't we just all fly procedurally with 4D Navigation and do away with ATC altogether?
It should tie in nicely with the software with all aircraft types, and then pilots and controllers can retire to the beach, with drinks in hand, and watch it all go like clockwork.
How good will that be for the airlines and ANSPs managers. $2 airfares for everyone, selfserve inflight service. No need for flight attendants as they will never need to evacuate aircraft, because nothing could possibly go wrong, no-one would ever play up in flight.
I think John Lennon wrote a song about this.
Vampiro.....
I couldnt disagree with you more.
In Madrid you guys always put SO much effort into vectoring non spanish aircraft to allow spanish aircraft to jump the queue! if you used those skills with your general controlling, the flow rates would improve massively.
Example - "turn right by 90 degrees, slow down from 300 to 220" - why, to allow a spanair who is 12 miles behind us to be number one! The funny thing was that he then screwed up his landing on 33L and rolled to the end whereas we landed and took first turning and ended up on taxiway ahead of him!!!
How does the rest of europe manage? I was at the hold for 36R a few days ago - for other readers, Madrid has 2 parallel runways JUST FOR DEPARTURES - and the departure rate for BOTH runways combined was 1 per 3 minutes!!!!
Of course there were 8 aircraft waiting at the hold and you claim to be efficient???
Everyday we are told to give way to Spanish aircraft, even if we have right of way. Its embarrassing at times.
We are given clearance to pushback when there are aircraft behind us, no thought or looking out of windows by controllers.
Deconfliction on the ground and in the air is given in spanish even when it involves an english aircraft.
And you have the audacity to say
For me and all my colleagues, the ATC in Madrid is a joke, a sad one at that.
No respect for you guys whatsoever.
I couldnt disagree with you more.
In Madrid you guys always put SO much effort into vectoring non spanish aircraft to allow spanish aircraft to jump the queue! if you used those skills with your general controlling, the flow rates would improve massively.
Example - "turn right by 90 degrees, slow down from 300 to 220" - why, to allow a spanair who is 12 miles behind us to be number one! The funny thing was that he then screwed up his landing on 33L and rolled to the end whereas we landed and took first turning and ended up on taxiway ahead of him!!!
How does the rest of europe manage? I was at the hold for 36R a few days ago - for other readers, Madrid has 2 parallel runways JUST FOR DEPARTURES - and the departure rate for BOTH runways combined was 1 per 3 minutes!!!!
Of course there were 8 aircraft waiting at the hold and you claim to be efficient???
Everyday we are told to give way to Spanish aircraft, even if we have right of way. Its embarrassing at times.
We are given clearance to pushback when there are aircraft behind us, no thought or looking out of windows by controllers.
Deconfliction on the ground and in the air is given in spanish even when it involves an english aircraft.
And you have the audacity to say
Spanish ATCs enjoy working in a flexible way trying to do their best for the pilots and companies (our customers)
No respect for you guys whatsoever.
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Just Yesterday in MAD
Scheduled departure 14.55, slot of 15.50. we called for clearance at 14.50 and requested a ready message being send. No luck. Due to long taxitime to 36R, we started calling for startup several times around 15.20. No luck, finally received startup at around 15.30. Arrived at 36R at 15.50 number 8 in line!!!!! requested clarification whether we were gonna make it from ATC. Took two times before they understood the question and the finally came back that we had to contact company to arrange a new slot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
We were flabbergasted. Told ATC quiet forcefully that it was their mistake and their responsibility to solve. Meanwhile, in the line several of the other planes started to make comments like "welcome to Madrid" and "ATC is a joke here" and so on. Ryanair found out he had the same problem and had to contact company to arrange a new slot. He was less than amused as well.
Don't know what finally happened (like to think it was my forcefull voice
) but ATC got a spanish A/C in front of us out of the way and we left right on the hour.
What a joke though
Scheduled departure 14.55, slot of 15.50. we called for clearance at 14.50 and requested a ready message being send. No luck. Due to long taxitime to 36R, we started calling for startup several times around 15.20. No luck, finally received startup at around 15.30. Arrived at 36R at 15.50 number 8 in line!!!!! requested clarification whether we were gonna make it from ATC. Took two times before they understood the question and the finally came back that we had to contact company to arrange a new slot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
We were flabbergasted. Told ATC quiet forcefully that it was their mistake and their responsibility to solve. Meanwhile, in the line several of the other planes started to make comments like "welcome to Madrid" and "ATC is a joke here" and so on. Ryanair found out he had the same problem and had to contact company to arrange a new slot. He was less than amused as well.
Don't know what finally happened (like to think it was my forcefull voice
) but ATC got a spanish A/C in front of us out of the way and we left right on the hour.What a joke though
There seem to be so many anomolies with "flow management".
Here are some examples going to Ciampino today - filed FL 350 - requested FL370 with French but not available due "flow etc". Soon as we call Swiss we are asked if we are able to climb to FL 370 to assist with separation! They also gave us a direct to TOP.
CTOT ex Ciampino 1012 - call for push and start at 0957 (CTOT - 15 mins) - told to standby (one other a/c about to taxi ahead of us). After 5 mins remind ATC we are standing by for push "yes I know standby!) - we finally get cleared push at 1007 (5 mins to slot). Taxi to hold point, one a/c ahead and he is cleared for take off. This was slower a/c on same routing. We are then held for over five minuted and eventually get airborne at CTOT at 11 mins!!
On the way back we are filed at FL360 - we request FL 380 and were granted this for the whole cruise until descent.
Sorry but please don't kid me into thinking that the action in Spain and France is due to "flow management" - absolute bollox!
Here are some examples going to Ciampino today - filed FL 350 - requested FL370 with French but not available due "flow etc". Soon as we call Swiss we are asked if we are able to climb to FL 370 to assist with separation! They also gave us a direct to TOP.
CTOT ex Ciampino 1012 - call for push and start at 0957 (CTOT - 15 mins) - told to standby (one other a/c about to taxi ahead of us). After 5 mins remind ATC we are standing by for push "yes I know standby!) - we finally get cleared push at 1007 (5 mins to slot). Taxi to hold point, one a/c ahead and he is cleared for take off. This was slower a/c on same routing. We are then held for over five minuted and eventually get airborne at CTOT at 11 mins!!
On the way back we are filed at FL360 - we request FL 380 and were granted this for the whole cruise until descent.
Sorry but please don't kid me into thinking that the action in Spain and France is due to "flow management" - absolute bollox!