Spanish ATC
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I am not familiar with the EMB195 but I doubt very much your figures, if 20 min at 2000ft below optimum = 200 Kg that would be 10Kg/min ???? Common !!
Look afain your charts, I think you got a zero wrong somewhere.
Look afain your charts, I think you got a zero wrong somewhere.
For a 20 minute cruise take a third of my figures for a ballpark number. About 100kgs, each way, for the 14 aeroplanes in our fleet. That is 2.8 tonnes per day for the sake of 2000'. Multiply that by 365 days in a year and you get close to half a million pounds wasted. Triple that for an average 2 hour sector.
It's easy to see why there are plenty of people unhappy with the current situation in Spain.
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I don't want to be rude but... if one can't understand what difference it makes to cruise at lower levels than optimum to a jet plane you are certainly in the wrong forum. Isn't this a Professional Pilot Network?? 
Last edited by Fuel Dump; 21st Jun 2010 at 12:51.
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Spanish Atc
it seems that the french controllers are starting to act like the spanish, i came from lyon today and no directs... not available they say, it's so boring, a wast of time, money, fuel... it is really sad
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IBERIA
Regarding the favor treatment IB flights receive, I think your comments are being a bit simplistic just because it happened to you once, I say this with no intention of offending you or anybody else.
I am employed by a spanish airline (not IB) and I do fly regularly to LEPA and other airports around Spain, and I can tell that I have been told to slow down many many times to allow for traffics who were at times more distant than we were and worse positioned for a direct APP, that usually happens in LEPA,most of the times with Airberlin traffics, they are usually given priority over others, same applies for airports in small cities in northern Spain like Santander, where is not uncommon to have a Ryanair 40 NM north of the airport and another traffic 20 NM to the south and being told he is number 2 and to slow down.
My guess is that in some airports the companies having lots of flights and getting support from the regional administration are treated better than other who are not as important in terms of total number of flights.
This is only my opinion based in personal experience, I cannot back my opinion with any official data or statistics, so I could be wrong.
I do not think spanish ATC give spanish traffics priority over foreign ones, at least as a policy, you might always find the odd one who is not as professional as he /she should be as in every place and country.
I agree with you totally that the ATC level in Spain compared to UK is not even close in terms of quality or organization, and that there is plenty of room for major improvement on the services they provide, but come on , the guys are having a rough time with their managers who are not playing fair, they are just trying to defend themselves, donīt just make them look worse than they are, most of them are usually willing to help us getting directs and other stuff.
Good flights to all, and letīs hope this situation stops ASAP.
LEVC
I am employed by a spanish airline (not IB) and I do fly regularly to LEPA and other airports around Spain, and I can tell that I have been told to slow down many many times to allow for traffics who were at times more distant than we were and worse positioned for a direct APP, that usually happens in LEPA,most of the times with Airberlin traffics, they are usually given priority over others, same applies for airports in small cities in northern Spain like Santander, where is not uncommon to have a Ryanair 40 NM north of the airport and another traffic 20 NM to the south and being told he is number 2 and to slow down.
My guess is that in some airports the companies having lots of flights and getting support from the regional administration are treated better than other who are not as important in terms of total number of flights.
This is only my opinion based in personal experience, I cannot back my opinion with any official data or statistics, so I could be wrong.
I do not think spanish ATC give spanish traffics priority over foreign ones, at least as a policy, you might always find the odd one who is not as professional as he /she should be as in every place and country.
I agree with you totally that the ATC level in Spain compared to UK is not even close in terms of quality or organization, and that there is plenty of room for major improvement on the services they provide, but come on , the guys are having a rough time with their managers who are not playing fair, they are just trying to defend themselves, donīt just make them look worse than they are, most of them are usually willing to help us getting directs and other stuff.
Good flights to all, and letīs hope this situation stops ASAP.
LEVC
it seems that the french controllers are starting to act like the spanish
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I've had the misfortune of being based in Madrid Barajas for the past 8 months, and from my first hand, day to day experience of dealing with the donkey air traffic controllers there i can only say that is both a DISGRACE and a SCANDAL that such a low level of professionalism and competency can be allowed to exist at a major international airport.
It's hard to know where to begin when it comes to discussing the range of problems that the controllers cause, so ill just make a list in no particular order:
- There are 4 runways in Madrid, but still the controllers manage to make a mess of almost every approach by giving non sensical speeds and vectors despite having few aircraft to manage due to the amount of runways.
- Most professional air traffic controllers (ie. in countries other than spain) that i have come accross tend to give vectors of 5-10 degrees off track for seperation, in Madrid we get sent 90 degrees off track.
- Preference given every day for Spanish airlines, in particular Iberia, its a regualar procedure coming into Mad that we get slowed down to 220 kts and vectored 90 degrees off course and watch as we are overtaken/undertaken by Iberia/Spanair/Air Europa.
- We have our situational awareness diminished both in the air and on the ground by Spanish being spoken between Spanish ATC and Spanish airlines - absolute madness.
- When checking into the countless approach frequencies/ground frequencies we usually have to repeat ourselves as the controller is not listening on the frequency, their typical response is "station calling"? in a comical confused sounding voice.
- When holding we are never given expected approach times or reasons for holding (its mostly because of their work to rule/strike), often have to ask several times but are usually ignored. Have on several occasions been told '10 minutes' only to be told 10 minutes later that it will be another 10 minutes etc etc.
- Whenever it gets a little bit busy you start hearing nervousness and panic in the controllers voices, whatever extremely low standard that they are trained to does not enable them to deal efficiently with large volumes of aircraft.
- The exrtremely high levels of pay that these 'professionals' receive just adds insult to injury.
Flying between Madrid and London is like flying between two differant planets in terms of air traffic control standards. That such a massive, massive differance in quality can be allowed to exist in this day and age is a scandal. Unfortunately the only way that i can see that the standard will change in Madrid is after an accident is caused by the incompetence of the controllers. It will happen sooner or later.
This is what happens when you give a small special interest group the control over a countries airspace. Their priorities are cushy working conditions and high pay. The least of their concerns is efficiency and high standards. The daily delays caused by their current work to rule is a total disgrace. I hope something changes soon however i doubt it, the Spanish government like most governments in europe are a joke.
It's hard to know where to begin when it comes to discussing the range of problems that the controllers cause, so ill just make a list in no particular order:
- There are 4 runways in Madrid, but still the controllers manage to make a mess of almost every approach by giving non sensical speeds and vectors despite having few aircraft to manage due to the amount of runways.
- Most professional air traffic controllers (ie. in countries other than spain) that i have come accross tend to give vectors of 5-10 degrees off track for seperation, in Madrid we get sent 90 degrees off track.
- Preference given every day for Spanish airlines, in particular Iberia, its a regualar procedure coming into Mad that we get slowed down to 220 kts and vectored 90 degrees off course and watch as we are overtaken/undertaken by Iberia/Spanair/Air Europa.
- We have our situational awareness diminished both in the air and on the ground by Spanish being spoken between Spanish ATC and Spanish airlines - absolute madness.
- When checking into the countless approach frequencies/ground frequencies we usually have to repeat ourselves as the controller is not listening on the frequency, their typical response is "station calling"? in a comical confused sounding voice.
- When holding we are never given expected approach times or reasons for holding (its mostly because of their work to rule/strike), often have to ask several times but are usually ignored. Have on several occasions been told '10 minutes' only to be told 10 minutes later that it will be another 10 minutes etc etc.
- Whenever it gets a little bit busy you start hearing nervousness and panic in the controllers voices, whatever extremely low standard that they are trained to does not enable them to deal efficiently with large volumes of aircraft.
- The exrtremely high levels of pay that these 'professionals' receive just adds insult to injury.
Flying between Madrid and London is like flying between two differant planets in terms of air traffic control standards. That such a massive, massive differance in quality can be allowed to exist in this day and age is a scandal. Unfortunately the only way that i can see that the standard will change in Madrid is after an accident is caused by the incompetence of the controllers. It will happen sooner or later.
This is what happens when you give a small special interest group the control over a countries airspace. Their priorities are cushy working conditions and high pay. The least of their concerns is efficiency and high standards. The daily delays caused by their current work to rule is a total disgrace. I hope something changes soon however i doubt it, the Spanish government like most governments in europe are a joke.
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McNulty I totally agree!
The only thing I would add is their current work to rule is not achieving anything! They might as well just go on a proper strike for a few days and be done with it. Would have a much bigger impact and would get their point across (not that its valid anyway).
All its doing is reducing air safety by cramming loads of a/c on the same route and the same place. As well as causing a bad atmosphere between controllers and pilots, particularly at FR.
Bean counters in a few months will notice a slightly higher fuel burn, and the percentage of on time arrivals will slowly decrease.... but this is surely not going to have an impact on the ts and cs of these controllers!! - even though they are apparently loaded anyway.
All we can do is keep our wits about us when we go to Spain, as McNulty says something dreadful could easily happen with their current unprofessional attitude.
My message to them is: EITHER WORK PROPERLY OR DON'T BOTHER TURNING UP AT ALL!!
Jim
The only thing I would add is their current work to rule is not achieving anything! They might as well just go on a proper strike for a few days and be done with it. Would have a much bigger impact and would get their point across (not that its valid anyway).
All its doing is reducing air safety by cramming loads of a/c on the same route and the same place. As well as causing a bad atmosphere between controllers and pilots, particularly at FR.
Bean counters in a few months will notice a slightly higher fuel burn, and the percentage of on time arrivals will slowly decrease.... but this is surely not going to have an impact on the ts and cs of these controllers!! - even though they are apparently loaded anyway.
All we can do is keep our wits about us when we go to Spain, as McNulty says something dreadful could easily happen with their current unprofessional attitude.
My message to them is: EITHER WORK PROPERLY OR DON'T BOTHER TURNING UP AT ALL!!
Jim
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Fuel Dump :
On a more serious note, wrong thread to start discussing RFLs, when this French and Spanish circus is over, maybe we can go at it again, because in the future European ATM system ( e.g SESAR) pilots and controllers are not the ones who are going to decide your route and your RFL.
Isn't this a Professional Pilot Network??
On a more serious note, wrong thread to start discussing RFLs, when this French and Spanish circus is over, maybe we can go at it again, because in the future European ATM system ( e.g SESAR) pilots and controllers are not the ones who are going to decide your route and your RFL.
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- There are 4 runways in Madrid, but still the controllers manage to make a mess of almost every approach by giving non sensical speeds and vectors despite having few aircraft to manage due to the amount of runways.
- When holding we are never given expected approach times or reasons for holding (its mostly because of their work to rule/strike), often have to ask several times but are usually ignored. Have on several occasions been told '10 minutes' only to be told 10 minutes later that it will be another 10 minutes etc etc.
- Whenever it gets a little bit busy you start hearing nervousness and panic in the controllers voices, whatever extremely low standard that they are trained to does not enable them to deal efficiently with large volumes of aircraft.
- Whenever it gets a little bit busy you start hearing nervousness and panic in the controllers voices, whatever extremely low standard that they are trained to does not enable them to deal efficiently with large volumes of aircraft.
here A possible explanation to the problems you had in LEMD:
(It's a quote from a post of p_perez in ATC forum)
Veteran ATCOīs older than 57 (the most experienced) are not allowed to control anymore, and are now forced to do burocratic jobs. This has been a great loss for all of us, because of their huge experience on the job. At Madrid TMA, about 30% of the ATCOīs have been retired from operational jobs, and have been hardly replaced by already exploited colleagues or by non-operational ATCOīs forced to return to the ACC.
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Veteran ATCOīs older than 57 (the most experienced) are not allowed to control anymore, and are now forced to do burocratic jobs. This has been a great loss for all of us, because of their huge experience on the job. At Madrid TMA, about 30% of the ATCOīs have been retired from operational jobs, and have been hardly replaced by already exploited colleagues or by non-operational ATCOīs forced to return to the ACC.
No noticeable difference between those who are experienced and those who are not; the reasons for a crap service must be elsewhere.
the reasons for a crap service must be elsewhere
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I have to agree with LEVC that in PMI you can include Air Berlin as a Spanish airline. The way Spanish atc gives priority to it's own airlines is not only unfair but dangerous.
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Veteran ATCOīs older than 57 (the most experienced) are not allowed to control anymore
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their typical response is "station calling"? in a comical confused sounding voice.
That happens on nearly every frequency in Spain. It is amazing when you are enroute over somewhere busy like BCN or MAD and after the third or fourth call you get this response. What are they doing?
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And after that third or fourth call they call back the wrong aircraft.
Me: ABC 123 flight level 380 direct ANETO.
ATC: ABC 789 radar contact.......
Or even worse blindly ignore me and call Iberia and the whole show starts again.
Wake the f%ck up! And don't get me started about Madrid, what a bunch of armature's. In Spain I get nervous when we get vectors
.If only the people of Spain knew what their taxes are being wasted on...
Me: ABC 123 flight level 380 direct ANETO.
ATC: ABC 789 radar contact.......
Or even worse blindly ignore me and call Iberia and the whole show starts again.
Wake the f%ck up! And don't get me started about Madrid, what a bunch of armature's. In Spain I get nervous when we get vectors
.If only the people of Spain knew what their taxes are being wasted on...
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The latest news on training for Spanish ATC would appear to be an answer to many prayers but is still way away in the future and as pointed out by Nightstop #134 "The only solution I can see is an outside team of overseas experts brought in to retrain and monitor the present encumbants and that includes the Trainers themselves.":
Astac has incorporated Astac Spain SL to assist in the marketing and preparation of training programmes for air traffic controllers in Spain. Astac Spain will be working in conjunction with University Camilo Jose Cela in Madrid and have signed a joint venture agreement to establish the formal links to integrate the Astac training with UCJC.
Astac Ltd will undertake the training at the Astac Shoreham International Training Centre in Brighton, and students will also be able to participate in the Astac University of Gloucestershire Foundation Science Degree in Air Traffic and Aviation Management.
The students will benefit from the great experience of Astac in training controllers for more than 30 countries around the world; and with the training being in England students will significantly improve their English and Aviation language skills.Astac Spain is working with the Ministry of Transport, Civil Aviation Authority and AENA in Spain to coordinate the training of controllers planned to commence in August 2010. Full details will be available on www.astacspain.com and www.astac.co.uk
Astac has incorporated Astac Spain SL to assist in the marketing and preparation of training programmes for air traffic controllers in Spain. Astac Spain will be working in conjunction with University Camilo Jose Cela in Madrid and have signed a joint venture agreement to establish the formal links to integrate the Astac training with UCJC.
Astac Ltd will undertake the training at the Astac Shoreham International Training Centre in Brighton, and students will also be able to participate in the Astac University of Gloucestershire Foundation Science Degree in Air Traffic and Aviation Management.
The students will benefit from the great experience of Astac in training controllers for more than 30 countries around the world; and with the training being in England students will significantly improve their English and Aviation language skills.Astac Spain is working with the Ministry of Transport, Civil Aviation Authority and AENA in Spain to coordinate the training of controllers planned to commence in August 2010. Full details will be available on www.astacspain.com and www.astac.co.uk
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Telstar:
That happens on nearly every frequency in Spain. It is amazing when you are enroute over somewhere busy like BCN or MAD and after the third or fourth call you get this response. What are they doing?
That happens on nearly every frequency in Spain. It is amazing when you are enroute over somewhere busy like BCN or MAD and after the third or fourth call you get this response. What are they doing?
Ahhh - well when you go into AGP the ATIS often says "controllers on the job".
So now you know what they are doing.....
Last edited by silverstrata; 26th Jun 2010 at 09:44.
Nothing new here people.
Many many countries have bias ATC towards their national carriers. Singapore is probably the most spectacular and bold of any I have come accross - expect to do laps out there so their Supers can do a low energy approaches.
As an aside and in the controllers defence though, it's my understanding it's often the computer software driving/overriding good controlling. Out here in Australia we have had a system TAAATS (think it's from France???) since around year 2000 and controllers are slavishly tied to what it tells them even when it would appear from their years of experience to be off the track so to speak. Whilst some aspects of the system are definatly good, on the whole controllers are now much more regimented and less flexable, efficient and practical than they were in the past.
So yes we all suffer from national bias in some countries but spare a thought for some controllers who are forced by their managers and policy to blindly follow what a computer has been programmed to tell them even when they can see it's plainly wrong but not necessarily unsafe.
Computers - rubbish in, rubbish programming, rubbish out.
Many many countries have bias ATC towards their national carriers. Singapore is probably the most spectacular and bold of any I have come accross - expect to do laps out there so their Supers can do a low energy approaches.
As an aside and in the controllers defence though, it's my understanding it's often the computer software driving/overriding good controlling. Out here in Australia we have had a system TAAATS (think it's from France???) since around year 2000 and controllers are slavishly tied to what it tells them even when it would appear from their years of experience to be off the track so to speak. Whilst some aspects of the system are definatly good, on the whole controllers are now much more regimented and less flexable, efficient and practical than they were in the past.
So yes we all suffer from national bias in some countries but spare a thought for some controllers who are forced by their managers and policy to blindly follow what a computer has been programmed to tell them even when they can see it's plainly wrong but not necessarily unsafe.
Computers - rubbish in, rubbish programming, rubbish out.
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New training scheme
DjerbaDevil,
answer to many prayers? Until now first people had to pass a tough selection process and then, and only then, if they were the top of the stack they would be picked to be trained. Fair enough, system is(was) not perfect but since the employer was the one paying for the course they were performance oriented (they'd only pick whoever they thought was most able). Now the only chance to become an ATCO in Spain is by paying from your own pocket. So forget performance. Who's got 25000+ euro or more to spare? Then, my boy, you'll be an ATCO(or so they say). Hell, even some schools setting up already (with courses already rostered and filled), have "forgotten" to actually test their candidates.
But then again, if you have a school and a student with a dream (and ready to pay form 25k onwards), would you tell them to keep their money because you don't think they'll be good at their job or they don't have a chance? Yeah, right, exactly.
Don't expect any improvemente from that side of things anytime soon...
answer to many prayers? Until now first people had to pass a tough selection process and then, and only then, if they were the top of the stack they would be picked to be trained. Fair enough, system is(was) not perfect but since the employer was the one paying for the course they were performance oriented (they'd only pick whoever they thought was most able). Now the only chance to become an ATCO in Spain is by paying from your own pocket. So forget performance. Who's got 25000+ euro or more to spare? Then, my boy, you'll be an ATCO(or so they say). Hell, even some schools setting up already (with courses already rostered and filled), have "forgotten" to actually test their candidates.
But then again, if you have a school and a student with a dream (and ready to pay form 25k onwards), would you tell them to keep their money because you don't think they'll be good at their job or they don't have a chance? Yeah, right, exactly.
Don't expect any improvemente from that side of things anytime soon...