Spanish ATC
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J.O.
So because ATC is a monopoly, they should bend over and take it?
I believe, at least on this side of the pond, if more pilot's had stood up to management over the years similar to what the Spanish ATC is doing, your career wouldn't have eroded to the point where it is no longer much of a career.
So because ATC is a monopoly, they should bend over and take it?
I believe, at least on this side of the pond, if more pilot's had stood up to management over the years similar to what the Spanish ATC is doing, your career wouldn't have eroded to the point where it is no longer much of a career.
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@10W: whole slot system in europe is sick
The window is there solely for ATC use, to allow for taxiway and holding point congestion which might prevent an aircraft getting airborne at its Calculated Take Off Time (CTOT). ATC can, and often do, apply their discretion of course and use it to make up for operator shortfalls, but that's not ultimately what it is in place for. On that basis, pilots have no right to demand its application for their flight.
What are the facts ?
1. Aircraft ready to go have to wait, because of their slots. When finally released they burn max fuel to gain some minutes back.
2. Aircraft not ready to go are pushed to reach their slots.
(I tried to take off without flaps two times - I caught me taxiing with 40 knots.
Am I the only one making mistakes in a hurry to reach a slot ??? )
Various incidents do proof, that this is the opposite of a system that should support
flight safety.
3. Flights delayed by ATC pay the same ATC Fees as flights not delayed by ATC.
4. Every flight can be sabotaged by ATC by sticking to the rules: example:
You request start up at CTOT -20. They say: "Standby for start due to your slot."
You get start up at CTOT -10. You wait for push around 10 min. - you taxi 15 min,
and then you hear: "you just missed your slot"
I never experienced this in Spain so far. But in Germany (FRA,MUC,DUS) and Italy (FCO) this is "normal" procedure.
Some more facts about "slots" and flight safety:
You have a one hour deicing queue. You have a slot starting in 30 min. They tell you: "You will not make your slot, call your operator". You ask:
" What CTOT shall i try to get ?" ATC answers: " I don´t know [...and I don´t care]".
You organize a new slot. You get deicing. Hold over time is running out, waiting for your slot. IS THIS FLIGHT SAFETY ? This is bull****, and nothing else.
Last edited by Baron737; 18th Aug 2010 at 14:25.
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(red ?) Baron737 :
ATC and ATFM are 2 different things that do not always work well . ATFM is there to regulate traffic, so that the peaks are smoothed and safety is maintained. ATC would rather prefer that the sytem ( including staff numbers) and the environment ( e.g. airports and runways ) would cater for the demand at all times, i.e. including the peaks. Unfortunately economics comes along and we have a system that is there for the average traffic, not for the high demand periods.
CTOTs adherence are as much ( if not more ) a pain for controllers than for pilots.But contrary to your perception , they increase safety, because they try to prevent everybody arriving at the same time at the same place.
The examples you give are bad,agreed, but they are exceptions rather than the rule. On average the system does not work too badly and we do not have the hours of delays we had in the 70-80s with less than half the traffic and roughly the same ground infrastructure.
De-icing and AFTM does not work well, we all know this. But there are little alternatives at present, other than building more de-icing gates ( for how many times a year ?) or having a big brother computer that will issue one slot only taking into account everything like : gate occupancy, taxiway occupancy, departure runway slot, de-icing slot ,airport slot and enroute sectors slot . I know some people are working on this, we should wish them good luck.
In the meantime relax, and accept that the ATC system is no longer there to serve you, as an individual pilot, but rather to try to serve the (sometimes conflicting ) needs of the whole aviation community.
ATCW
PS: the above is not Spain related .
ATC and ATFM are 2 different things that do not always work well . ATFM is there to regulate traffic, so that the peaks are smoothed and safety is maintained. ATC would rather prefer that the sytem ( including staff numbers) and the environment ( e.g. airports and runways ) would cater for the demand at all times, i.e. including the peaks. Unfortunately economics comes along and we have a system that is there for the average traffic, not for the high demand periods.
CTOTs adherence are as much ( if not more ) a pain for controllers than for pilots.But contrary to your perception , they increase safety, because they try to prevent everybody arriving at the same time at the same place.
The examples you give are bad,agreed, but they are exceptions rather than the rule. On average the system does not work too badly and we do not have the hours of delays we had in the 70-80s with less than half the traffic and roughly the same ground infrastructure.
De-icing and AFTM does not work well, we all know this. But there are little alternatives at present, other than building more de-icing gates ( for how many times a year ?) or having a big brother computer that will issue one slot only taking into account everything like : gate occupancy, taxiway occupancy, departure runway slot, de-icing slot ,airport slot and enroute sectors slot . I know some people are working on this, we should wish them good luck.
In the meantime relax, and accept that the ATC system is no longer there to serve you, as an individual pilot, but rather to try to serve the (sometimes conflicting ) needs of the whole aviation community.
ATCW
PS: the above is not Spain related .
I distinctly heard a vuvuzela in the background while talking to Madrid ATC this afternoon. Watching re-runs of the World Cup? 
That said, my last two flights through Spanish airspace have seen an improvement. Today we actually got to cruise at a level higher than filed!
ATC even prompted us to request higher by asking if the ride was a little choppy, implying that they would give us a climb if we gave them an excuse.
Amazing how busier ATC in the rest of Europe manages to serve the needs of the 'individual pilot'.
That said, my last two flights through Spanish airspace have seen an improvement. Today we actually got to cruise at a level higher than filed!
ATC even prompted us to request higher by asking if the ride was a little choppy, implying that they would give us a climb if we gave them an excuse.
In the meantime relax, and accept that the ATC system is no longer there to serve you, as an individual pilot, but rather to try to serve the (sometimes conflicting ) needs of the whole aviation community.
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MH152 :
I said my post was not Spain specific , I was trying to reply on ATFM slots , not Spain.
I you think ATC in Europe is only about getting you direct routings and higher than filed RFLs, perhaps you're flying in the wrong places on the wrong Flight Rules.
Amazing how busier ATC in the rest of Europe manages to serve the needs of the 'individual pilot'.
I you think ATC in Europe is only about getting you direct routings and higher than filed RFLs, perhaps you're flying in the wrong places on the wrong Flight Rules.
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Hi Eagle,
No such thing in the US. No such thing as a formal "slot", and terms like "slot improvement" mean nothing to your typical US ATC guy or gal.
You get your clearance over voice or PDC (via ACARS). You close up, call for your push back and start when you're ready (I can't think of a single place that requires you to call for a start clearance). In %99 of the cases, "Ramp Control" (Apron, on your side, I guess) is a function of the company running the gates at the terminal, NOT an ATC function.
Once you get to the border of the movement area (where the real ATC takes over), you call them, and you taxi down to the end of the runway, and when you are next in line, you go. First come, first served. Sometimes the Tower will jockey around the departure seuqnce a bit to even out the traffic on the departures, but even that is pretty rare.
Now, with that said, under certain conditions, some airports may have flow restrictions because of weather or traffic flow. In which case you will be issued a "Expect Departure Clearance Time" (or EDCT), but this is the exception, not the rule, and is situationally based. If you are blasting off from KMSP to KORD, and there aren't any TRWs or other foul weather, you're going to blast off when you get to the end of the runway.
All ATC in the US wants out of life is to get you out of their hair as quickly and safely as they can, which means getting you going in the right direction ASAP. Even if you have an EDCT, they are always trying to get you going early.
In the case of when the weather (%99 of the time caused by TRWs), most places have coded departure routes (CDRs), which will provide a near instant reroute that (a number of which will be pre-approved by your dispatcher), so there's no coordination with the company. Get the CDR around the weather, and you're gone.
ATC will also utilize low level departures if you're fat on fuel and the upper sectors are saturated (happens sometimes, again mostly TRW related, but I haven't seen that in a bunch of years). OR, if you're OK with staying below 10k for a while, you can even utilize a technqiue called "Tower enroute", where you can utilize a sequence of adjacent approach control airspace...you don't even talk to center.
My point is that US ATC has the goal of getting you going in the right direction as soon as possible, and there are any number of means that provide safe and legal separation. You may wind up at a slower airspeed, a different altitude, or get vectored for a bit, but you are off an running. Generally though, a different route, altitude or airspeed is yours for the asking.
Don't confuse the term "slots" when used in reference to certain high-density airports in the US, like KLGA. They only refer to a pair of operations (T/O & Landing), and not to a specific time.
Nu
No such thing in the US. No such thing as a formal "slot", and terms like "slot improvement" mean nothing to your typical US ATC guy or gal.
You get your clearance over voice or PDC (via ACARS). You close up, call for your push back and start when you're ready (I can't think of a single place that requires you to call for a start clearance). In %99 of the cases, "Ramp Control" (Apron, on your side, I guess) is a function of the company running the gates at the terminal, NOT an ATC function.
Once you get to the border of the movement area (where the real ATC takes over), you call them, and you taxi down to the end of the runway, and when you are next in line, you go. First come, first served. Sometimes the Tower will jockey around the departure seuqnce a bit to even out the traffic on the departures, but even that is pretty rare.
Now, with that said, under certain conditions, some airports may have flow restrictions because of weather or traffic flow. In which case you will be issued a "Expect Departure Clearance Time" (or EDCT), but this is the exception, not the rule, and is situationally based. If you are blasting off from KMSP to KORD, and there aren't any TRWs or other foul weather, you're going to blast off when you get to the end of the runway.
All ATC in the US wants out of life is to get you out of their hair as quickly and safely as they can, which means getting you going in the right direction ASAP. Even if you have an EDCT, they are always trying to get you going early.
In the case of when the weather (%99 of the time caused by TRWs), most places have coded departure routes (CDRs), which will provide a near instant reroute that (a number of which will be pre-approved by your dispatcher), so there's no coordination with the company. Get the CDR around the weather, and you're gone.
ATC will also utilize low level departures if you're fat on fuel and the upper sectors are saturated (happens sometimes, again mostly TRW related, but I haven't seen that in a bunch of years). OR, if you're OK with staying below 10k for a while, you can even utilize a technqiue called "Tower enroute", where you can utilize a sequence of adjacent approach control airspace...you don't even talk to center.
My point is that US ATC has the goal of getting you going in the right direction as soon as possible, and there are any number of means that provide safe and legal separation. You may wind up at a slower airspeed, a different altitude, or get vectored for a bit, but you are off an running. Generally though, a different route, altitude or airspeed is yours for the asking.
Don't confuse the term "slots" when used in reference to certain high-density airports in the US, like KLGA. They only refer to a pair of operations (T/O & Landing), and not to a specific time.
Nu
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@NuGuy Thanks...
...for explaining us how ATC could work:
We have the opposite system here: (well said by ATC Watcher)
Because it is perhaps hard for you to understand what is going on here in Europe one more quick example of our "slot system" ( I don´t take a safety issue this time 
):
You are the only one at the airport early in the morning. You get a slot delay of 20 mins today. The tower controller is friendly. He lets you out at CTOT-7 (he is allowed only CTOT-5). You have unusual easterly wind and make unother 6 mins because of the departure rwy. Now you fly your 45 mins enroute at max speed max fuel flow. You make together with shortcuts another 4 mins. You approach direct with max speed and make another 5 mins to touchdown (you are again the only one). Now you are proud: you are 2 mins early !!
The sense of the 20 mins slot delay ? Nobody will be able to explain. Perhaps: "...it did serve the needs of the whole aviation community"
All ATC in the US wants out of life is to get you out of their hair as quickly and safely as they can, which means getting you going in the right direction ASAP. Even if you have an EDCT, they are always trying to get you going early.
In the meantime relax, and accept that the ATC system is no longer there to serve you, as an individual pilot, but rather to try to serve the (sometimes conflicting ) needs of the whole aviation community.
):You are the only one at the airport early in the morning. You get a slot delay of 20 mins today. The tower controller is friendly. He lets you out at CTOT-7 (he is allowed only CTOT-5). You have unusual easterly wind and make unother 6 mins because of the departure rwy. Now you fly your 45 mins enroute at max speed max fuel flow. You make together with shortcuts another 4 mins. You approach direct with max speed and make another 5 mins to touchdown (you are again the only one). Now you are proud: you are 2 mins early !!
The sense of the 20 mins slot delay ? Nobody will be able to explain. Perhaps: "...it did serve the needs of the whole aviation community"
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Baron, you are barking at the wrong tree. I spend my all carreer ( passed in Maastricht UAC) giving directs and Req levels whenever I could because that was our culture then. Also, when I am busy, the earliest you are gone from my frequency the better it is for me. So we have a common interest there.Controllers generally do not like ATFM restrictions. It add to their workload.
Problem is that when the hub system sarted , you were sent to holding patterns in your arr airport quite often .1 hour holding in FRA or LHR on a Monday morning was common then .
The game changed when the airlines did not want to hold in the air anymore but on the ground.That was cheaper. ATFM was born. It is not an ATC invention to bother you , it was an " Aircraft Operators urgent need " as ICAO called it back then.
Comparing the US situation with Europe is pointless in many ways. Also ATFM , in the US 90% of restrictions are due to Weather 10% "volume" as they call it, In Europe it is almost excatly the opposite. Build more airports and more runways and get rid of the military airspace around civil airports in Europe and we can talk again .
Problem is that when the hub system sarted , you were sent to holding patterns in your arr airport quite often .1 hour holding in FRA or LHR on a Monday morning was common then .
The game changed when the airlines did not want to hold in the air anymore but on the ground.That was cheaper. ATFM was born. It is not an ATC invention to bother you , it was an " Aircraft Operators urgent need " as ICAO called it back then.
Comparing the US situation with Europe is pointless in many ways. Also ATFM , in the US 90% of restrictions are due to Weather 10% "volume" as they call it, In Europe it is almost excatly the opposite. Build more airports and more runways and get rid of the military airspace around civil airports in Europe and we can talk again .
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The sense of the 20 mins slot delay ? Nobody will be able to explain.
Simply a matter of capacity of the various ATC sectors through which your flight was supposed to fly (according to the filed plan).
If you departed earlier and flew at a different FL, you fooled all the previsions and some other flights may well have been delayed (because of you) in vain.
But that is none of your concern I guess.
Simply a matter of capacity of the various ATC sectors through which your flight was supposed to fly (according to the filed plan).
If you departed earlier and flew at a different FL, you fooled all the previsions and some other flights may well have been delayed (because of you) in vain.
But that is none of your concern I guess.
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You are the only one at the airport early in the morning. You get a slot delay of 20 mins today. The tower controller is friendly. He lets you out at CTOT-7 (he is allowed only CTOT-5). You have unusual easterly wind and make unother 6 mins because of the departure rwy. Now you fly your 45 mins enroute at max speed max fuel flow. You make together with shortcuts another 4 mins. You approach direct with max speed and make another 5 mins to touchdown (you are again the only one). Now you are proud: you are 2 mins early !!
The sense of the 20 mins slot delay ? Nobody will be able to explain. Perhaps: "...it did serve the needs of the whole aviation community"
The sense of the 20 mins slot delay ? Nobody will be able to explain. Perhaps: "...it did serve the needs of the whole aviation community"
And therefore the controller has enough capacity to provide you with dct's etc.
Maybe a day or two at a larger ATC-facility with an FMP-desk would open up your mind a bit.
How far out are you reduced into large US-airfields? How much time do you spend alongside the runway with you engines running at large US Fields? No comparrison to be made here...
Gender Faculty Specialist
Palma was a joke this morning.
Everyone getting slots (according to ops they were departure restrictions at Palma, too many departures) roughly an hour after STD. Nothing at the holding point for about half an hour or so, nobody able to leave on schedule because of the slots.
Then...everybody pushing and starting within minutes of each other, to make the slots, by the time we got in the queue we were number 15 for departure and over 40 minutes of engines running and going nowhere slowly. Similar types getting airborne with 3 minute spacings. 757's being put in front of ATR's and the like. Oh yes and we got airborne about 20 minutes after our slot time.
Fantastic use of slots there chaps! Much more efficient.
Everyone getting slots (according to ops they were departure restrictions at Palma, too many departures) roughly an hour after STD. Nothing at the holding point for about half an hour or so, nobody able to leave on schedule because of the slots.
Then...everybody pushing and starting within minutes of each other, to make the slots, by the time we got in the queue we were number 15 for departure and over 40 minutes of engines running and going nowhere slowly. Similar types getting airborne with 3 minute spacings. 757's being put in front of ATR's and the like. Oh yes and we got airborne about 20 minutes after our slot time.
Fantastic use of slots there chaps! Much more efficient.
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Agreement
According to "El Pais" online, 90% of Spanish ATC staff have agreed to a settlement of the dispute with the government.
Los controladores aéreos ratifican en asamblea el pacto con AENA · ELPAÍS.com
Further negotiations will held from September to reach a new permanent contract.
Los controladores aéreos ratifican en asamblea el pacto con AENA · ELPAÍS.com
Further negotiations will held from September to reach a new permanent contract.
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I have to say that when I went into Madrid today at about 14z when the weather was building to the north the service we got was very good. No excitement just efficient controlling and working with the aircraft to get everyone in. Well done.
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Not so good
Flying down to LEMG this evening and heard a Ryanair who was going north to Domingo rqst left to avoid wx which was undoubtedly present. Madrid ATC initially said there was no weather ahead and even when pressed by FR was most reluctant to allow any deviation. In fact I do not recall any hdg actually permitted by ATC. At least an ASR filed if it was me. I have never heard anything like this before and was quite astonished.
Third World Controlling
I overheard recently an aircraft requesting a diversion from an east coast Spanish airport, despite repeated requests the ATCO refused permission for the aircraft to leave the Hold and proceed en-route to the Alternate! Last I heard the Crew told him to get stuffed and diverted en-route anyway....before their fuel ran out 
Gender Faculty Specialist
To Chesty: the very moment you enter Spanish airspace, you will be under my or one of my colleague's control; if you request descend or climb, you will do so only after you are cleared by me or one of my colleagues; if you are told to turn certain degrees or heading by me or one of my colleagues, you will comply; any request is suject to my or my colleagues authorisation; etc ... Get it?
Seems they value their "authority" over us more than safety.
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Flying down to LEMG this evening and heard a Ryanair who was going north to Domingo rqst left to avoid wx which was undoubtedly present. Madrid ATC initially said there was no weather ahead and even when pressed by FR was most reluctant to allow any deviation. In fact I do not recall any hdg actually permitted by ATC. At least an ASR filed if it was me. I have never heard anything like this before and was quite astonished
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you will comply; any request is suject to my or my colleagues authorisation; etc ... Get it?
No. Actually your clearances are like wet paper if I take the decision that is unsafe .
No. Actually your clearances are like wet paper if I take the decision that is unsafe .
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Requests
I fail to understand the "requests" discussion. If there is a weather problem requiring a diversion, I tell the controller what I am doing and tell him I will keep him informed and will return to track when that is possible. I have never had a "discussion" about the matter, and have always complied if there is a safety issue.