Spanish ATC

[stev]

what a joke

Nick 41

your more right than you know. The lads and gals in london are underpaid. How about all of the spanish ATC have to do 2 month in NATS handeling LGW traffic before they get hired and obviously pass an asesment test. What would happen oh god my nephew has not got the job, i was promised he would get it. Spanish ATC are too closely related as with alot of Spain. 21st centuary has yet to befall on them. GO ON STRIKE if you have a mandate the people will support you if you haven't then rethink your position. I have never been a Reganist but these people are bringing that back to the popular domain.

[Cernicalo]

TO THE MODERATOR: Request to ban Zerotohero

I kindly request to the moderator to ban Zerotohero.

It's second time, he calls "idiots" to controlers. He did the same in this post in the past, so I formly REQUEST to the moderator to ban this person. A Ryanair pilot should be polite, I think. In this post he did it before, regarding to Malaga trainees ATCs.

Aviation used to be a profesion for gentlemen.

Idiot on the job training monitored

I love it when I hear that on the Atis.

Copied from the page #8 of this thread:

28th Jun 2010, 20:22 -0700 [PDT] #160 (permalink) zerotohero

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Where the company needs me not where I want to be!
Age: 32
Posts: 197


Cernicalo

As maybe we talked each other in AGP, Could you please, write all the phrase: "Controllers on the job... training monitored

lol,,, when I hear that in Spain I cant but help write down idiot in training when copying down the ATIS.

And from the page #34:

11th Nov 2010, 01:19 -0800 [PST] #666 (permalink) zerotohero

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Where the company needs me not where I want to be!
Age: 32
Posts: 197


Idiot on the job training monitored

I love it when I hear that on the Atis.

Its not just the no direct and capped flight levels V Planned thats poor its the whole thing in general, you know its bad when flying with Spanish pilots who are embarrassed to say that they are there fellow countrymen.

Shame on you.

[zerotohero]

Funny how thats what pretty much everyone is saying on this thread too!

"Station Calling" lol

[Cernicalo]

Hello Nick14,

Sent the long way round at LEMG whilst a spanish aircraft was given shortcuts (I was with a spanish speaking captain, he let me know what was going on as ATC were speaking in spanish/english). We were then radar vectored to a 18/20 mile final.

From your words I suppose you are talking about RWY13, so.... I supposed you completed the ILS Z for RWY13. Yes, I think that the vectored traffic maybe did 4-5 miles less than you... What a incredible long way round...

If you entered 7 miles behind him, you were in the right path! Somebody has to be number 1, and somebody has to be number 2... 7 miles behind... Only one RWY!!!

Regards,

Cernicalo.

[Cernicalo]

Viele danke Admiral346!!!. Wir Brauche glück!

....

I am with spanish ATC on this, they are getting screwed by privatisation, by the Zeitgeist of producing everything as cheaply as possible and finding consensus on the lowest denominator

....

Nic, y buena suerte a ATC espaniol!

[Cernicalo]

Hello thebeast,

tick with filed flight planned levels then ask the french for higher when transfered...i just accept thier nonsense...fire them all bring in Regan to sort it .. **** hes dead!

Don't worry, politicians are working on it... Bring Reagan please!

[Cernicalo]

Zerotohero,

Don't want polemics, but, if I continue with a similar behaviour than you, I could say: it is funny too what pretty much everyone is saying about an Airline you know very well. Fuel qty lol???

No more replies in my behalf

Funny how thats what pretty much everyone is saying on this thread too!

"Station Calling" lol

[Cernicalo]

Cmon-PullUP

Fed up reading the same nonsenses... 5 minutes fuel burn in a 2 hour 30 minutes flight is what is killing the planet... Maybe will kill it one day before! Next time, don't ask for high speed approach or departure!

It does not exist petrol based "Green" planes or cars. Its is just pure marketing. The problem is, we believe it!!!

Cmon-PullUP

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: In the flightdeck
Age: 36
Posts: 6


Those 5 minutes also equals 200 kg fuel burn on most medium sized aircrafts with subsequent pollution to the planet we all would like to maintain for our kids future, while still doing our jobs.

MOL said a very sensible thing not long ago: Sack all the spanish controllers, and employ people who actually want to do the work they are paid to do. (and maybe they could even employ people who would put pride into their jobs)

This nonsenes and childish behaviour from spanish atc has been on kindergarden level for long enough now.

[Cityliner]

No1 or No2 for App doesn' t matter there are dozens of other examples how non spanish airlines are disadvantaged by ATC!
Starts with Airportslots at PMI and an absolute ridiculous start up policy, goes on to weird Sequencing inbound the Canaries, flying 50 miles with flaps2 and speed 180 because somewhere 100 miles away a Binter ATR is taking off to the same destination or flying the entire Vibas1B at AGP while a 3min previous Aircraft gets a direct HIJ after departure.
If you have the support by your union and your colleagues and a legalized for any actions go on strike, if not do your job and stop this nonsense

[p_perez]

In fact, we ATCO's at Spain have an inside joke playing with the name of this airline: RAYAnair ("seguir la RAYA" = "follow strictly the LINE").

This doesn't pretend to be a fight pilots VS controllers. This is against politicians and company managers that want to turn everything and everybody to low-cost just to increase their benefits.

Saludos!

[Cernicalo]

Cityliner,

I don't know in PMI or in Canaries, but if that is as right as you tell about AGP...

1. Flying V1B after a B1G or another V1B, you will have 2 minutes, not three.

2. ¿Direct HIJ?. I have NEVER heard about a direct to HIJ, In fact, the HIJ departures are never issued. Sure you are not talking about Vibas, Bln, Lojas or Yeste?

3. The best to do for our Union, as you say, will be an strike. Of course, like the 29 September General Strike (What a shame of strike... Goverment asking for a strike against themselves, with everything open and working...) the ATC had a minimum services of 108%. More people working than in a normal day. If that would be your case, do you think the best to do is a legal strike?

4. I supposed then, due the points 1 to 3, the 50 miles 180Kts flaps2 is quite quite quite exaggerated.

15th Nov 2010, 00:56 -0800 [PST] #691 (permalink) Cityliner

Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: here and there
Posts: 68


No1 or No2 for App doesn' t matter there are dozens of other examples how non spanish airlines are disadvantaged by ATC!
Starts with Airportslots at PMI and an absolute ridiculous start up policy, goes on to weird Sequencing inbound the Canaries, flying 50 miles with flaps2 and speed 180 because somewhere 100 miles away a Binter ATR is taking off to the same destination or flying the entire Vibas1B at AGP while a 3min previous Aircraft gets a direct HIJ after departure.
If you have the support by your union and your colleagues and a legalized for any actions go on strike, if not do your job and stop this nonsense

[Cityliner]

Sorry you are right I was talking about Lojas and RWY31 for DEP.

I personally would prefer that you guys go on strike, that would bring you a lot more support from the pilots, at least from me.
Because with the current behaviour I think you will reach nothing.
A strike is a fact people are more likely to accept.

[kick the tires]

I agree with Cityliner, in fact i would go further to say that the current inaction has led to an erosion of what little respect I had for Spanish ATC!

[Cernicalo]

Hi Cityliner and Kick_the_tyres,

Unfortunaly, for the Spanish mass and the spanish media, the ATC is always in strike, although there are no strikes I think since 1987... But, as the pilots, people and media says ATC are overoveroverpaided and priviliged and "mafia" and surely, pedophiles and not-going-to-church-on-sundays.

Topics...

Sorry for you guys, In the event of strike, will be not alllowed by the goverment, Spain is quite dictatorial nowadays, quite similar the manners of the minister Mr "White" to Franco.

Remember 29-Sep-2010 strike: 108% of MINIMUM services. More people working than a normal day. Newspaper telling ATC hijacks the society and don't let the country to move forward, by a mafiosos and privileged group. And people just clapping to the goverment that is making looooots of people is earning 800€ per month, in Spain, ¿Europe?.

15th Nov 2010, 12:34 -0800 [PST] #693 (permalink) Cityliner

Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: here and there
Posts: 69


Sorry you are right I was talking about Lojas and RWY31 for DEP.

I personally would prefer that you guys go on strike, that would bring you a lot more support from the pilots, at least from me.
Because with the current behaviour I think you will reach nothing.
A strike is a fact people are more likely to accept.

['I' in the sky]

Amigo ATC,
You ask "With a compulsory, non-negociated increase in compulsory working hours of about 50% for Spanish ATC (believe me, it's true) and a salary cut of around 50%, how could Aena's managers not foresee that the discontent of the ATC workforce would cause a noticeable decline of service quality?"

I put it to you that knowing full well you have for several years been paid well over the going rate for controllers internationally, you should have foreseen that one day this situation would be rectified, and rightly so.

Whatever difficulties you may think there are to being an air traffic controller, it is no more difficult in Spain than anywhere else, you don't do a better job of it in Spain than anywhere else, so why should you be paid more in Spain than anywhere else ?

I have yet to hear you or any of your colleagues and supporters make any kind of attempt to justify why spanish controllers are worth four times more than those anywhere else.

[p_perez]

'I' in the sky:

until the change imposed to us, we worked 1200 hrs. a year as our basic mandatory roster. Out of these hours, we had a 33% rest on earlies and lates, and a 50% rest on nights. Our basic salary for these hours was below the average salary of europeans ATCO´s (aprox. 2000€ a month before taxes, what they are planning to pay for new ATCO´s from now on).

As AENA decided not to hire enough controllers to attend the rising demand of air traffic (it is very expensive to select, train and hire new controllers), they decided to offer us well paid overtime: not all of us accepted, it was voluntary so you could always choose if you wanted to have less spare time or see not so often your family for that extra quid. This overtime is what made our wages soar in the last years, but it was AENA´s decision to solve the problem of increasing traffic this way. Our union (USCA) always demanded from the company an increase in the number of operational ATCO´s, but as said, the last word was always AENA´s.

What they did last feb., unilaterally and imposed, is increase our basic roster from 1200 hs. to 1670 hrs. a year => a 39% increase in our working hours, for everyone! And as they see it is not enough, they are beginning to talk about a new 1800 hr. limit for next year!!!

Also, they reduced our rest breaks from 33% to 25% on earlies/lates, and from 50% to 33% on nights => this is another increase on our working hours of about a 34%, which adds to the previous increase. This was also imposed, with no previous studies on the effect on our work load. And monoposition is been considered also: Lake Constanza?

Add to this that they decided to reduce our consolidated basic salary by a 40%, arguing that AENA didn´t submit the agreed (with USCA) increase of that basic salary to an interministerial commission (CECIR???) that nobody even knew that existed (needless to say, it was AENA´s obligation to do so, not ours ...).

More: using false/manipulated information that AENA regularly sends to EUROCONTROL and is included in their annual performance report, we have suffered an absolutely overwhelming media campaign in Spain, by results of which we Spanish ATCO´s are now seen as social lazy scum that work very little, earn very much, and are always on strike. On the contrary: we have been working an average of 1700 hrs. in the past years (as the Spanish m/s-inister Jose Blanco has aknowledged), way over the European average, with a basic salary way below European average, and with not a single strike since 1986 ...

And to finish and to not make this summary too long, operational decisions are now in the hands of AENA staff: RWY in use, placing regulations, SLOT/CTOT awarding (see this picture of how they handle it http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...ml#post6058921), sector capacity, number of ATCO´s in service per shift ...

Now AENA can access to recordings of the communications ATCO/pilot at their discretion, without the need of a previous incident report that was in place until now: this is part of the JUST CULTURE philosophy that is necessary in the aviation industry. The custody of those recordings (in each FIR) was in the hands of the Chief Supervisor (a fellow ATCO); but in Sevilla ACC, the Chief Supervisor in charge refused to permit the study of the tapes that AENA staff demanded because there was no previous incident to justify it. He is now suffering a disciplinary action (16 days of work and salary suspended), and the tapes with the recordings have been reasigned to an AENA manager who can freely use them at own will: i. e. 3 ATCO´s are now under a disciplinary action procedure in LEJR using the tapes as an evidence. Don´t forget that in those tapes are the voices of us ATCO´s and you fellow PILOTS, doesn´t this make you happy? ...

AENA and the Spanish goverment have recently reversed their decision to retire my 57+ years old colleagues from operational positions (even with the brutal increase in our "productivity", they still didn´t have enough ATCO´s); they have also desisted from stablishing AFIS at El Hierro island at Canarias, so they are giving again control service there (with the same AFIS staff, who are trained in several weeks to give CONTROL service instead of INFORMATION service).

Not a single new condition in the past 11 months has been negotiated between AENA and USCA: all the changes have been imposed.


To all of you pilots that fly in Spanish Airspace: my apologies, and those of my colleagues, for being so pissed off.


Saludos!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Originally Posted by p_perez

[B]until the change imposed to us, we worked 1200 hrs. a year as our basic mandatory roster. Out of these hours, we had a 33% rest on earlies and lates, and a 50% rest on nights. Our basic salary for these ours was below the average salary of europeans ATCO´s (aprox. 2000€ a month before taxes).

On the contrary: we have been working an average of 1700 hrs. in the past years (as the Spanish m/s-inister Jose Blanco has aknowledged), way over the European average, with a basic salary way below European average, and with not a single strike since 1986 ...

they are beginning to talk about a new 1800 hr. limit for next year

Don´t forget that in those tapes are the voices of us ATCO´s and you fellow PILOTS, doesn´t this make you happy? ...

So your basic roster was 1200 hours a year. You voluntarily worked an extra 500 hours a year, working up to 1700 hours a year, for "well paid over time".

Now they want you to work 1670 hours but without the overtime. Tough luck son, join the club.

1800 hours a year is about normal in this industry. You won't get much sympathy for that either.

This all boils down to money doesn't it? You will be working, essentially, the same amount of hours that you have been for years, but you won't be getting your "well paid overtime" anymore.

Your final point about ATC recordings and my voice being on it. Who cares, this happens all the time, even when I 'phone my own company. If you've got nothing to hide then it won't matter will it?

[p_perez]

1800 hours a year is about normal in this industry.

Are you sure, mah?

Your final point about ATC recordings and my voice being on it. Who cares, this happens all the time, even when I 'phone my own company. If you've got nothing to hide then it won't matter will it?

Right to privacy? What about allowing the police to enter your house anytime, for any reason, with no judge supervising it? After all, you don´t have nothing to hide, do you?

(...)You voluntarily worked an extra 500 hours a year, working up to 1700 hours a year, for "well paid over time".

Now they want you to work 1670 hours but without the overtime. Tough luck son, join the club.

Sure, excuse this "boutade": let me think of something that maybe you practice voluntarily in your spare (private) time, and lets make it mandatory ... Well, I better not!

You won't get much sympathy for that either.

I guess we´ll get the same sympathy from you as you get from us when you guys complain about no direct routings or not filed FL´s. Anyway, we are not asking for your sympathy, just letting you know why sometimes **** happens ...


Saludos!


Saludos!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Are you sure, mah?

Yup, give or take here and there but that's pretty normal. By the way, if I assume you have 6 weeks leave a year, 1800pa works out at about 39 hours a week which, for a 5 day week, is just under 8 hours a day - normal. What were you doing before?!

Right to privacy? What about allowing the police to enter your house anytime, for any reason, with no judge supervising it? After all, you don´t have nothing to hide, do you?

If I was worried about my right to privacy I wouldn't be transmitting my voice on a frequency which has, probably, hundreds of listeners. Somewhat different to refusing entry to my house, in which I have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

Sure, excuse this "boutade": let me think of something that maybe you practice voluntarily in your spare (private) time, and lets make it mandatory ... Well, I better not!

So you're quite happy to give up your spare/private time for a ridiculous amount of money but dislike it if you're not being given a ridiculous amount of money?

I'm not bothered about flying my flight planned route, it means I have to say less to you. But, I am not the cause of your plight you, however, are the cause of the 'no directs'. Aren't ya?

[testpanel]

we worked 1200 hrs

So, at least you worked! Be happy!

If you don't want, why don't you join the other ar 20% unemployed in spain? And yes, i worked and still live in spain, BUT i was forced to accept a job outside spain.

btw, airliners are paying atc charges, its not the other way around!