Spanish ATC
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This is not a beautiful and wonderful world of fairy tales. If two sign an agreement, that's because BOTH of them expect to get a benefit. What does ENAV gets by loosing some ATCOs for a couple of years? Don't you think, maybe, there is a second (unknown) part of this agreement? Maybe once they are finished with us it's your turn. Who knows if in a couple of years AENA will be asking us to volunteer to go to Italy as instructors. We'll be more than delighted to pay back your visit...
Why shouldn't we like our italian guests? After being harassed for a year by our company, our government, our media, our society... it's just so nice to be stabbed in the back by fellow ATCOs 
You are coming to hell and will be working directly for Satan.
Absolutely, you'll be most welcome. Please, feel free to contact us if you need a place to stay, raping our wives or whatever.
If a Team does not like you
AENA = lies lies and lies, you will find out
and a warm welcome!
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it's like a dream for italians controllers
Now fell free to speak for you only.
In Milano someone of you should stop dreaming..
As you surely know the only official news given by ENAV are that is a "training activity" done in a "european project" between ENAV and AENA and it will be for 2 years. Nothing said about money.
According to your nickname there's a possibility you are from Roma, if you (or someone of milano guys "ready to go") want to know something true (no dreams) about spain situation: on january the 18th there will be a meeting between some spanish collegues and roma acc personnel..
p.s. if in the future (i hope no) there will be people coming from abroad to replace ATCers in Italy (or to help ENAV in this) I'd be curious to know personal feelings of the "coalition of willings" you're referring to..
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Just read a press release from ATCEUC on this issue ("Controllers seats to hire in Spain: higher salary and military weapons in the back" - 13th january)
www.atceuc.org
They mention other providers participating besides ENAV. Any idea?
Deci, thanks. I hope most of your colleagues think like you do.
www.atceuc.org
They mention other providers participating besides ENAV. Any idea?
Deci, thanks. I hope most of your colleagues think like you do.
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Just one question for those who are tempted / advice people to go to Spain: WHY?
Because of their salary or working conditions?
Well if you thing your working conditions are lower than those of Spain, it means that you should fight in your country to increase your salary/reduce your working hours or whatever! Going their for money makes you a profiteer and a coward that only wants to get the same priviledges of people who have fought for them.
Because it would be an interesting job?
Nobody knows what is the very definition of the job, so this answer can't be used.
Because you want to "punish" spanish ATCO for devaluating the image of ATCO?
First this is quite childish, then they have done nothing appart from playing with the system and the rules that were given to then. But the game was crooked since everything was orchestrated to lead to the point where spanish ATCO could be sacrificed on the public place. So don't worry the punishment has already exceeded the crime.
I really don't get why people would like to go to work in Spain and stab in the back of our colleagues.
Once upon a time, we had this feeling of belonging to the same community, of having to protect each other. It seems it has completely led place to individualism and selfishness.
Nock
Because of their salary or working conditions?
Well if you thing your working conditions are lower than those of Spain, it means that you should fight in your country to increase your salary/reduce your working hours or whatever! Going their for money makes you a profiteer and a coward that only wants to get the same priviledges of people who have fought for them.
Because it would be an interesting job?
Nobody knows what is the very definition of the job, so this answer can't be used.
Because you want to "punish" spanish ATCO for devaluating the image of ATCO?
First this is quite childish, then they have done nothing appart from playing with the system and the rules that were given to then. But the game was crooked since everything was orchestrated to lead to the point where spanish ATCO could be sacrificed on the public place. So don't worry the punishment has already exceeded the crime.
I really don't get why people would like to go to work in Spain and stab in the back of our colleagues.
Once upon a time, we had this feeling of belonging to the same community, of having to protect each other. It seems it has completely led place to individualism and selfishness.
Nock
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I am sure you are all interested in their last press release..
atceuc.org - Air Traffic Controllers European Unions Coordination
atceuc.org - Air Traffic Controllers European Unions Coordination
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No objection to Italians, but please be informed
A basic problem when making decisions is a lack of information. It's all OK to say yes to great pay and an opportunity for change in your working life. Why not, especially if your original post is kept for you. Will it? Are you sure?
I have personally published a brief -by no means comprehensive- overview of the Spanish ATCO situation on uncontrolledairspain.********.com. Please take your time to read it, pose questions or ask for any clarifications. Thank you very much.
PS If in doubt, consider I would never go to your country if you were in the midst of a crisis including being militarised
I have personally published a brief -by no means comprehensive- overview of the Spanish ATCO situation on uncontrolledairspain.********.com. Please take your time to read it, pose questions or ask for any clarifications. Thank you very much.
PS If in doubt, consider I would never go to your country if you were in the midst of a crisis including being militarised
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<H1>NATS targets Spanish expansion
14 Jan 2011
BAA’s Spanish owner Ferrovial and the UK’s air traffic control body NATS have joined forces to bid for air traffic control services in Spain.
Spain's Infrastructure Ministry has announced plans to privatise ATC at Alicante, Valencia, Ibiza, La Palma, Lanzarote, Fuerteventura, Seville, Jerez, Sabadell, Cuatro Vientos, Vigo, La Coruña and Melilla airports this year.
Santiago Olivares, chief executive of Ferrovial Services, said: ‘Our alliance with NATS combines our knowledge of the aviation industry and the specific features of the Spanish market with NATS' track record in air traffic control and its unique experience in the privatisation of such a sensitive sector.’
Paul Reid, managing director NATS Services, added: ‘We are very much looking forward to developing further our relationship with Ferrovial, building on the strong links we have already established in the UK.
‘Since privatisation, NATS has demonstrated an excellent track record in safety and quality of service, leading the industry in reducing ATC-related delays.’
NATS, which became a public private partnership in 2001 with the UK Government owning a 49% stake and the rest of the shares privately held, recently reported its sixth successive year of profit.
It currently manages around 2.2m flights a year in the UK and eastern North Atlantic, through some 2,000 controllers based at 15 airports and two operations centres.
NATS Services is its commercial business, which works with airports, air navigation service providers and other customers worldwide.
Ferrovial, meanwhile, founded in 1952, is one of the world's biggest infrastructure groups, operating airports, toll roads, construction and services divisions, with a presence in over 45 countries.
It acquired BAA in 2006.
</H1>
14 Jan 2011
BAA’s Spanish owner Ferrovial and the UK’s air traffic control body NATS have joined forces to bid for air traffic control services in Spain.
Spain's Infrastructure Ministry has announced plans to privatise ATC at Alicante, Valencia, Ibiza, La Palma, Lanzarote, Fuerteventura, Seville, Jerez, Sabadell, Cuatro Vientos, Vigo, La Coruña and Melilla airports this year.
Santiago Olivares, chief executive of Ferrovial Services, said: ‘Our alliance with NATS combines our knowledge of the aviation industry and the specific features of the Spanish market with NATS' track record in air traffic control and its unique experience in the privatisation of such a sensitive sector.’
Paul Reid, managing director NATS Services, added: ‘We are very much looking forward to developing further our relationship with Ferrovial, building on the strong links we have already established in the UK.
‘Since privatisation, NATS has demonstrated an excellent track record in safety and quality of service, leading the industry in reducing ATC-related delays.’
NATS, which became a public private partnership in 2001 with the UK Government owning a 49% stake and the rest of the shares privately held, recently reported its sixth successive year of profit.
It currently manages around 2.2m flights a year in the UK and eastern North Atlantic, through some 2,000 controllers based at 15 airports and two operations centres.
NATS Services is its commercial business, which works with airports, air navigation service providers and other customers worldwide.
Ferrovial, meanwhile, founded in 1952, is one of the world's biggest infrastructure groups, operating airports, toll roads, construction and services divisions, with a presence in over 45 countries.
It acquired BAA in 2006.
</H1>
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I was watching the news in TV and they just said that 100 military controllers will be trained to take over civilian control if necessary. That could be one of the reasons they are hiring italian instructors.
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I don't know what the hell is with the some people still ranting about Spanish ATCOS...don't you see we are well beyond ranting and fingerpointing? Do you realy wish that ATM systems are privatised? Do you realy wish that any infrastructure is privatised? Do you realy think that competition in ATM will bring any good?
I think that the privatisation of British rail system showed us everything we need to know about that.
and think where this world is heading to - where operational staff is held hostage and delt with as if they are terrorists or criminals...where is your bloody sense of solidarity with brothers in arms? If crews would start an uprising/strike due to unbearable working conditions, we would all support you. The question of quality of the service is now in second or even in third plan...what is going on in Spain is fascism. And if you would like to see it working, go to Hungary...they have just introuced new kind of totalitarism...
I think that the privatisation of British rail system showed us everything we need to know about that.
and think where this world is heading to - where operational staff is held hostage and delt with as if they are terrorists or criminals...where is your bloody sense of solidarity with brothers in arms? If crews would start an uprising/strike due to unbearable working conditions, we would all support you. The question of quality of the service is now in second or even in third plan...what is going on in Spain is fascism. And if you would like to see it working, go to Hungary...they have just introuced new kind of totalitarism...
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Do you realy wish that ATM systems are privatised? Do you realy wish that any infrastructure is privatised? Do you realy think that competition in ATM will bring any good?
I think that the privatisation of British rail system showed us everything we need to know about that.
I think that the privatisation of British rail system showed us everything we need to know about that.
ATM System is SERVICE not RULER,for further references check Mesa Selimovic book " CASTLE"
there is no reason to believe that infrastructure is purely state business. there are hundreds of good privat examples.
British ATM system is good reference. in that direction. If you need more good examples I will provide it.
Also there are good State ATM companies ,absolutely safe,expeditious.....
So there is no one answer.
Competition is always good. It is so nature. Of course if you believe in evolution.
Spain will be perfect example of "nature processes" in ATM world.
If they do not solve problem with ATM, before the March/April they will have huge problems with touristic season. that will effect tourist industry and ATCOs will loose any public suport. In such situation any deterioration of T&C is so easy. Rulers dream.
Do you really bellieve that tourist will flow to Ibiza or to gran Canaria if problem with ATM persist during the main Toursitic fairs,all around Europe?
No Chance.
Do you remember Greece last year?. They had some uncertainty,during the first three/four months of 2010. Nothing special for Balkan state, but uncertainty as such. Figures for last year , 20 to 30 % less tourist ,in areas with the Dutch and German tourists up to 80% less tourists. if you need pictures of empty towns and beaches ,just ask. After that everyone agrees that "measures" should be taken.
Too late, too little.
I am afraid that it could happen to our Spanish colleagues.
Unfortunately.
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Do you realy wish that ATM systems are privatised?
Do you realy wish that any infrastructure is privatised? Do you realy think that competition in ATM will bring any good?
Do you realy wish that any infrastructure is privatised? Do you realy think that competition in ATM will bring any good?
The current service is rubbish, so well worth a shot at trying something else.
and think where this world is heading to - where operational staff is held hostage and delt with as if they are terrorists or criminals...
As for being criminals... I do believe there are a number of judicial proceedings ongoing, some of which under criminal law. Glad you asked.
where is your bloody sense of solidarity with brothers in arms? If crews would start an uprising/strike due to unbearable working conditions, we would all support you.
The question of quality of the service is now in second or even in third plan...
what is going on in Spain is fascism. And if you would like to see it working, go to Hungary...they have just introuced new kind of totalitarism...
Problem with Spaniards is that they never admit to being wrong
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To clarify what would appear to be an effort on the part of some posters here to avoid telling all the truth, the press article and the reasons why AENA are asking for Italian controllers to work in Spain temporarily, is copied below:
Very brief translation and summary of the Spanish press article copied below with apologies for errors and omissions and additions:
AENA recruits controllers in Italy for recycling redundant personnel
Madrid. 12/1/11.- AENA has decided to ask their Italian equivalent ENAV to resolve the lack of controller instructors for a period of approximately 16 months or two years.
Two circulars have been distributed at the principal ENAV air navigation centres offering an undisclosed number of Italian controllers the possibility of joining the principal control centres at Madrid, Seville, Palma and Gran Canaria.
In the first circular, controllers are invited to apply, who may be interested in a "temporary position" at the above mentioned AENA centres of control, as instructors. The candidates must apply before the 21st of January. They must be in possession of all the appropriate licences and a high level of knowledge of English.
In the second circular they are advised of the selection process and the requirement of guarantees that those chosen will remain in Spain for the period contracted.
AENA sources said that the recruitment is the result of an agreement signed with ENAV and the objective is that the Italian controllers will be acting in the Spanish control centres as instructors of the Spanish professionals who become redundant at the air traffic control towers due to the privatisation process, which has been launched by the Ministry of Public Works at 13 airports, namely at Alicante, Valencia, Ibiza, La Palma, Lanzarote, Fuerteventura, Seville, Jerez, Sabadell, Cuatro Vientos, Vigo, La Coruña and Melilla airports. (The last part is an addition from a posting in this thread #1220)
AENA recluta en Italia controladores para reciclar al personal excedente
Madrid. 12/1/11.- El proveedor de servicios de navegación aérea español, AENA, ha decidido echar mano de sus buenas relaciones con su homólogo italiano, ENAV, para resolver un problema de falta de personal de instrucción durante un periodo que oscilará entre 16 meses y dos años.
El acuerdo para que un número indeterminado de controladores aéreos italianos pueda incorporarse en un plazo breve de tiempo a los principales centros de control de ruta de AENA ubicados en Madrid, Barcelona, Sevilla, Palma y Gran Canaria, se ha articulado mediante dos circulares que se han distribuido en las principales instalaciones de navegación de ENAV.
En la primera, se solicitan controladores interesados en ocupar un "empleo temporal" en los centros de AENA anteriormente citados, en calidad de instructores. Los candidatos deben cumplimentar su petición antes del próximo 21 de enero. Se exige, entre otros requisitos, poseer la licencia comunitaria de controlador de tráfico aéreo, habilitaciones en el máximo nivel de especialización de control de tráfico en ruta y un alto nivel de conocimiento de inglés.
En la segunda circular se detallan los extremos sobre los que se hará la selección entre todos los candidatos y se solicitan garantías para que los elegidos cumplan en su totalidad el plazo que permanecerán desplazados en España.
Fuentes de AENA dijeron que esta convocatoria responde a un acuerdo firmado con ENAV que tiene como objetivo que los controladores italianos puedan actuar en los centros de control españoles como instructores de los profesionales españoles que resulten excedentes en el proceso de privatización del servicio de las torres de control que ha sido lanzado por el Ministerio de Fomento el pasado mes de diciembre.
Very brief translation and summary of the Spanish press article copied below with apologies for errors and omissions and additions:
AENA recruits controllers in Italy for recycling redundant personnel
Madrid. 12/1/11.- AENA has decided to ask their Italian equivalent ENAV to resolve the lack of controller instructors for a period of approximately 16 months or two years.
Two circulars have been distributed at the principal ENAV air navigation centres offering an undisclosed number of Italian controllers the possibility of joining the principal control centres at Madrid, Seville, Palma and Gran Canaria.
In the first circular, controllers are invited to apply, who may be interested in a "temporary position" at the above mentioned AENA centres of control, as instructors. The candidates must apply before the 21st of January. They must be in possession of all the appropriate licences and a high level of knowledge of English.
In the second circular they are advised of the selection process and the requirement of guarantees that those chosen will remain in Spain for the period contracted.
AENA sources said that the recruitment is the result of an agreement signed with ENAV and the objective is that the Italian controllers will be acting in the Spanish control centres as instructors of the Spanish professionals who become redundant at the air traffic control towers due to the privatisation process, which has been launched by the Ministry of Public Works at 13 airports, namely at Alicante, Valencia, Ibiza, La Palma, Lanzarote, Fuerteventura, Seville, Jerez, Sabadell, Cuatro Vientos, Vigo, La Coruña and Melilla airports. (The last part is an addition from a posting in this thread #1220)
AENA recluta en Italia controladores para reciclar al personal excedente
Madrid. 12/1/11.- El proveedor de servicios de navegación aérea español, AENA, ha decidido echar mano de sus buenas relaciones con su homólogo italiano, ENAV, para resolver un problema de falta de personal de instrucción durante un periodo que oscilará entre 16 meses y dos años.
El acuerdo para que un número indeterminado de controladores aéreos italianos pueda incorporarse en un plazo breve de tiempo a los principales centros de control de ruta de AENA ubicados en Madrid, Barcelona, Sevilla, Palma y Gran Canaria, se ha articulado mediante dos circulares que se han distribuido en las principales instalaciones de navegación de ENAV.
En la primera, se solicitan controladores interesados en ocupar un "empleo temporal" en los centros de AENA anteriormente citados, en calidad de instructores. Los candidatos deben cumplimentar su petición antes del próximo 21 de enero. Se exige, entre otros requisitos, poseer la licencia comunitaria de controlador de tráfico aéreo, habilitaciones en el máximo nivel de especialización de control de tráfico en ruta y un alto nivel de conocimiento de inglés.
En la segunda circular se detallan los extremos sobre los que se hará la selección entre todos los candidatos y se solicitan garantías para que los elegidos cumplan en su totalidad el plazo que permanecerán desplazados en España.
Fuentes de AENA dijeron que esta convocatoria responde a un acuerdo firmado con ENAV que tiene como objetivo que los controladores italianos puedan actuar en los centros de control españoles como instructores de los profesionales españoles que resulten excedentes en el proceso de privatización del servicio de las torres de control que ha sido lanzado por el Ministerio de Fomento el pasado mes de diciembre.
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Kontrolor,
As shows privatisation of French rail, mail, electricity, water, health, pensions, motorways,...
Prices never decrease, investments stop, services fade away then prices increase.
Never mind as long as shareholders get their incomes, but it costs the community a lot more than before for a result that could be questionned.
Would you please share your knowledge about Hungary ?
Another thread, maybe ?
SINGAPURCANAC,
Can one believe in evolution and still wonder about humans flying ? 
Competition is always good when it's about being as good as one can.
I don't agree with you when competition is all about earning more than the neighbour.
At least not in aviation.
In ATC, the service is safety, everything else is litterature.
Safety in aviation needs investment. Shareholders need as little investment as possible...
You might be right : Darwin will sort the situation out. Just hope the only loss will be money.
I found an interresting link in another thread about Human Factors, thus safety when talking aviation.
This is the thread :
http://www.pprune.org/safety-crm-qa-...incidents.html
This is the link :
Serious about improving morale?
This shows everything AENA's managers should have done in order to avoid Darwin's strike.
LH2,
Sure, you always do !
Djerbadevil,
I remember this :
And this :
And this :
Makes me think that this time, the trainees might surpass the trainers... before the training begins.
Another loss of money, another Darwin's strike...
I think that the privatisation of British rail system showed us everything we need to know about that.
Prices never decrease, investments stop, services fade away then prices increase.
Never mind as long as shareholders get their incomes, but it costs the community a lot more than before for a result that could be questionned.
The question of quality of the service is now in second or even in third plan...what is going on in Spain is fascism. And if you would like to see it working, go to Hungary...they have just introuced new kind of totalitarism...
Another thread, maybe ?
SINGAPURCANAC,
Competition is always good. It is so nature. Of course if you believe in evolution.
Competition is always good when it's about being as good as one can.
I don't agree with you when competition is all about earning more than the neighbour.
At least not in aviation.
In ATC, the service is safety, everything else is litterature.
Safety in aviation needs investment. Shareholders need as little investment as possible...
You might be right : Darwin will sort the situation out. Just hope the only loss will be money.
I found an interresting link in another thread about Human Factors, thus safety when talking aviation.
This is the thread :
http://www.pprune.org/safety-crm-qa-...incidents.html
This is the link :
Serious about improving morale?
This shows everything AENA's managers should have done in order to avoid Darwin's strike.
LH2,
Problem with Spaniards is that they never admit to being wrong 
Djerbadevil,
AENA has decided to ask their Italian equivalent ENAV to resolve the lack of controller instructors
Italians work stripless, Spanish work with strips, don't they ? 
Correct. Even more surprising, they don't have the ratings they are supposed to teach
we have been working stripless since 2002....
Another loss of money, another Darwin's strike...
Last edited by BrATCO; 16th Jan 2011 at 07:19. Reason: Guess....... : typo
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the idea of having italian ATCOs moving to Spain to be INSTRUCTORS there is simply ridiculous,for many reasons:
first,passing from stripless to strips is VERY difficult,I've done it myself and I can tell you,it's TOUGH.
second:ATC is not like flying,and therefore you simply can't move one guy from one sector to another.
to be safe and expeditious you need a lot of time to get to know EACH sector,the rules,conditions and things that relate to it,and therefore,to be able to work SAFELY in one sector it takes you at least one year (and instructing in it even more,of course).
Third:how can you expect an italian guy going to spain-with the current situation our spanish colleagues are going thru- and expect a NICE living?
work will be hell and also people around you will treat you like THE ENEMY.
all this simply doesn't make any bloody sense!!!!
first,passing from stripless to strips is VERY difficult,I've done it myself and I can tell you,it's TOUGH.
second:ATC is not like flying,and therefore you simply can't move one guy from one sector to another.
to be safe and expeditious you need a lot of time to get to know EACH sector,the rules,conditions and things that relate to it,and therefore,to be able to work SAFELY in one sector it takes you at least one year (and instructing in it even more,of course).
Third:how can you expect an italian guy going to spain-with the current situation our spanish colleagues are going thru- and expect a NICE living?
work will be hell and also people around you will treat you like THE ENEMY.
all this simply doesn't make any bloody sense!!!!
Pegase Driver
Something is missing there. I cannot believe AENA and ENAV are so ignorant of EU regulations. Both Countries are in the EU and therefore Community licensing rules apply. A controller licence for Milano or Roma , will not be validated , let alone recieve an instructor rating for say Madrid, without proper OJT first. Who will do this OJT and how long will it take . In "normal conditions " I would say a year. In the present situation ? definitively not less. So perhaps someone in AENA is thinking they can just issue stamp licences with "instructor" on somebody not validated with Xmumer of hours and tests on the relevant ACC ? Cannot beleive this.
Something fishy here.
Something fishy here.
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Just a rumour....
AENA wants to show to the world how wonderful conditions are for ATCOs in Spain, and for that, they desperately need other ATCOs to come to work here...
AENA wants to show to the world how wonderful conditions are for ATCOs in Spain, and for that, they desperately need other ATCOs to come to work here...
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LH2, man you are very passionate against the Spanish controllers....I wonder if it is that you apllied to become a ATC in Spain and didn´t make the cut!? 
It really does strike me that there is a definate underlying factor of hate and or envy......
And calling them terrorists I would like you to tell a family member of somenone lost in 9/11 or closer to your home the Madrid bombings that you think these people are the same or worse
Wake up dude before your plane goes down from an overload of self-rightousness!
It really does strike me that there is a definate underlying factor of hate and or envy......
And calling them terrorists
I would like you to tell a family member of somenone lost in 9/11 or closer to your home the Madrid bombings that you think these people are the same or worse Wake up dude before your plane goes down from an overload of self-rightousness!
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ATC Watcher,
Why would they start bother with rules now ?
As for the 100 military controllers, provided they reach level 4 in English, how will they reach the minimum yearly hours to keep their civil licence valid ?
However, I don't doubt they will be trained enough for unusual situations...
Calcagafo,
There was no need for that !
After this one-year-long press campaign I think everyone around the world knows the way Spanish Controllers are treated, disregarding a lot of CRM, HF, Safety recommandations...
Yet, I'm not sure everyone understands what this means...
perhaps someone in AENA is thinking they can just issue stamp licences with "instructor" on somebody not validated
As for the 100 military controllers, provided they reach level 4 in English, how will they reach the minimum yearly hours to keep their civil licence valid ?
However, I don't doubt they will be trained enough for unusual situations...
Calcagafo,
AENA wants to show to the world how wonderful conditions are for ATCOs in Spain
After this one-year-long press campaign I think everyone around the world knows the way Spanish Controllers are treated, disregarding a lot of CRM, HF, Safety recommandations...
Yet, I'm not sure everyone understands what this means...