UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours
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So no sectors (forget the electronics were talking about controlling here)
You may think it's a step backward to have 2 people on the sectors but I can't ever remember having to wait in excess of 30 seconds to get an answer to a phone call in AC. Common in TC with no dedicated co-ordinator.
Is it backward in terms of safety?
Last edited by 250 kts; 20th Apr 2009 at 20:40.
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Eric
When I bought my house in the 80's, "50 pence" was a lot of money then AND took up a big chunk of my salary AND mortgage rates went up to 15% AND endowments were being mis-sold to us all AND there were no AAVA's so don't bleat about being hard up just because you were stupid enough to take out a 120% mortgage on a house that you can't realistically afford, sonny.
And another thing - I'm only 4 years away from retirement so I don't suppose my pension will be affected but I voted no for all you youngsters' pensions and I stopped doing AAVA's, not because I don't need the money (with 2 kids at university and my missus just made redundant I could still do with some extra dosh) but because I didn't want to lift a finger for NATS more than I had to after the pensions debacle and it annoys me to see the same folk coming in to do AAVAs all the time and most of those folk are youngsters whose pensions will be affected so I think to myself why did I bother, I'm alright Jack. If everyone stopped doing AAVAs for only a couple of months even, this place would probably grind to a halt.
Rant over.
I, like many people in my "area" of the pay scale bought my house for stupid money within the last 5 years. This is by far my biggest expense. I wish i had had the opportunity to buy my house for 50 pence in the eighties or earlier like many people did.
And another thing - I'm only 4 years away from retirement so I don't suppose my pension will be affected but I voted no for all you youngsters' pensions and I stopped doing AAVA's, not because I don't need the money (with 2 kids at university and my missus just made redundant I could still do with some extra dosh) but because I didn't want to lift a finger for NATS more than I had to after the pensions debacle and it annoys me to see the same folk coming in to do AAVAs all the time and most of those folk are youngsters whose pensions will be affected so I think to myself why did I bother, I'm alright Jack. If everyone stopped doing AAVAs for only a couple of months even, this place would probably grind to a halt.
Rant over.
Last edited by Min Stack; 20th Apr 2009 at 21:01.
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Phantom99.
Regarding the ATSA shortage..don't be suprised if in a month or so you see those that have gone on VR wondering around the ops room having been brought back in on casual labour/local recruitment to fill the shortfall... no pension payments to make!!!
Regarding the ATSA shortage..don't be suprised if in a month or so you see those that have gone on VR wondering around the ops room having been brought back in on casual labour/local recruitment to fill the shortfall... no pension payments to make!!!
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For all those thinking that AAVAs should be tied to your salary, why not do overtime instead, that's based on how much you get paid.
Oh, unless you do it on Christmas day, it's less than an AAVA would be.
Working in NSL, what's an AAVA? We do shift swaps instead (stupid huh?).
Oh, unless you do it on Christmas day, it's less than an AAVA would be.
Working in NSL, what's an AAVA? We do shift swaps instead (stupid huh?).
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T & P equals safer operation equals more traffic moved equals far less delays equals MOL not threatening to sue us again for delaying his flights. I don't know any sector I work where the dedicated planner hasn't been the saviour at some point. In the unpredictable environment we work in, sods law will be running it all from the T position and then needing a P thats scoffing some half baked Lasagna in the canteen.
Personally I found Min Stack's response quite offensive, glad to see TRM working in full effect - hope you don't call someone "sonny" on the radar or phoneline.
Today is not a good day to try buying a house and getting onto the market. Neither was it last year, or 3 years ago. I'd prefer to not rent all my life, nor do I want to buy in an area where I have a 50% chance that my car toured the city while I was sleeping and was then turned into a bonfire. Well there is that AAVA agreement that can add £4000 extra a year to the deposit fund if I do one a month..........
Or should I abstain like my peers tell me to, see the company struggle and maybe break, watch the pension fund collapse and then retire with nothing.
What a wonderful world of narrow minded people we live with. I really appreciated you voting in the T&D scale and thinking about the "youngsters" then.
Personally I found Min Stack's response quite offensive, glad to see TRM working in full effect - hope you don't call someone "sonny" on the radar or phoneline.
Today is not a good day to try buying a house and getting onto the market. Neither was it last year, or 3 years ago. I'd prefer to not rent all my life, nor do I want to buy in an area where I have a 50% chance that my car toured the city while I was sleeping and was then turned into a bonfire. Well there is that AAVA agreement that can add £4000 extra a year to the deposit fund if I do one a month..........
Or should I abstain like my peers tell me to, see the company struggle and maybe break, watch the pension fund collapse and then retire with nothing.
What a wonderful world of narrow minded people we live with. I really appreciated you voting in the T&D scale and thinking about the "youngsters" then.
Last edited by 5milesbaby; 20th Apr 2009 at 22:38.
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So there is potential for TC to go to 2 ATCO,s per position..... brilliant.
Gone then will be the days of running round like a blue arse fly for 5 positions on a core sector..... I may have to start bringing a book to work and some slippers for putting my feet up and looking after only one position.
As for AAVA's, do them if you want or dont do them if you dont want to. There is always going to be someone who needs the money, is a tight arse and loves every penny, or just doesnt give a monkeys. An endless and generally pointless discussion until the unions backbone comes in the post........
Next week I hear the union are organising a new event for us...... getting drunk in a brewery
Gone then will be the days of running round like a blue arse fly for 5 positions on a core sector..... I may have to start bringing a book to work and some slippers for putting my feet up and looking after only one position.
As for AAVA's, do them if you want or dont do them if you dont want to. There is always going to be someone who needs the money, is a tight arse and loves every penny, or just doesnt give a monkeys. An endless and generally pointless discussion until the unions backbone comes in the post........
Next week I hear the union are organising a new event for us...... getting drunk in a brewery
Bound to forget the corkSCREW
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5milesbaby - you're absolutely right, I was out of order using the word "sonny" - it was done in the heat of the moment. I don't call anybody sonny at work as I know what it's like, having some old duffer throw a strip at me in the old days saying "catch this laddy", or mentors standing behind me while I'm training laughing at my mistakes - old RAF/civil service mentality, etc, etc.
When Mr B sees you guys keep coming in on your days off for extra cash he's going to think "hmm, these ATCO's obviously don't need all this time off, lets start reducing their leave" and you'll just lay back and let him do that will you because you "don't want to see the company struggle and maybe break, watch the pension fund collapse and then retire with nothing"? Because that's what he'll try and do next. I might as well start doing AAVA's again then if you boys don't appreciate me and keep NATS afloat with my cheap labour so that Mr B can afford to shaft you even more.
So you carry on doing the AAVA's to keep paying for my nice pension and I'll think of you from time to time while I'm lazing on my yacht in Monte Carlo harbour. Good luck in your career.
When Mr B sees you guys keep coming in on your days off for extra cash he's going to think "hmm, these ATCO's obviously don't need all this time off, lets start reducing their leave" and you'll just lay back and let him do that will you because you "don't want to see the company struggle and maybe break, watch the pension fund collapse and then retire with nothing"? Because that's what he'll try and do next. I might as well start doing AAVA's again then if you boys don't appreciate me and keep NATS afloat with my cheap labour so that Mr B can afford to shaft you even more.
So you carry on doing the AAVA's to keep paying for my nice pension and I'll think of you from time to time while I'm lazing on my yacht in Monte Carlo harbour. Good luck in your career.
Last edited by Min Stack; 21st Apr 2009 at 06:04.
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Min Stack,
Sorry, but I find your comments a bit patronizing to be honest. I see your location is Scotland, so no doubt your house did only cost you 50p...or maybe you even had some change from that.
Those of us who worked at West Drayton had the misfortune to have to re-locate to Swanwick at a time when the housing market peaked in price. Since I have been down here (approx 18 months), I have seen approx £35-40k wiped off the value of my house, which was basically all my equity. So no, I didnt have a 120% mortgage....and this is the reason some people are still doing AAVAs. And why shouldn't they? If the Union gets their act together and puts forward an AAVA ban then I will galdly stop doing them but until then, if I get offered one then I'm doing it.
Sorry, but I find your comments a bit patronizing to be honest. I see your location is Scotland, so no doubt your house did only cost you 50p...or maybe you even had some change from that.
Those of us who worked at West Drayton had the misfortune to have to re-locate to Swanwick at a time when the housing market peaked in price. Since I have been down here (approx 18 months), I have seen approx £35-40k wiped off the value of my house, which was basically all my equity. So no, I didnt have a 120% mortgage....and this is the reason some people are still doing AAVAs. And why shouldn't they? If the Union gets their act together and puts forward an AAVA ban then I will galdly stop doing them but until then, if I get offered one then I'm doing it.
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Just a thought - so 'management' want ALL valid ATCO's back in the ops rooms "where possible". Especially valid ATCO's flying a desk for most of the time. I understand that there are two reasons for that; 1) salary costs 2) AAVA costs. Next step flexible rostering = no AAVA's. If the union organises an AAVA ban will that be partly doing exactly what they want? 
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Min Stack I'm with you all the way, except the "Sonny" bit I suppose!
B777 and 5 Miles, I too in the 80's was a victim of neg equity and was upset at that fact, but someone in the ops room reminded me that I had the choice to buy, nobody forced my hand into getting on the property ladder.
I have remembered that day ever since.
Eventually I bought myself out of the situation because of my excellent T&C's that had been fought hard for me by the Union in the past.
I'm not convinced of the unions job over the last few years however you can check my posts. I have been a rep too before you ask.
At the moment yours and my T&C's are going down the river every year it seems, so bear that in mind and fight to retain them as hard as possible if that means stopping AAVAs if asked to by the union then do it.
Not keeping hold of current T&C's means "in my opinion" having neg-eq for a long longer than I ever did.
Only my two pence worth. Now back to pay.
B777 and 5 Miles, I too in the 80's was a victim of neg equity and was upset at that fact, but someone in the ops room reminded me that I had the choice to buy, nobody forced my hand into getting on the property ladder.
I have remembered that day ever since.
Eventually I bought myself out of the situation because of my excellent T&C's that had been fought hard for me by the Union in the past.
I'm not convinced of the unions job over the last few years however you can check my posts. I have been a rep too before you ask.
At the moment yours and my T&C's are going down the river every year it seems, so bear that in mind and fight to retain them as hard as possible if that means stopping AAVAs if asked to by the union then do it.
Not keeping hold of current T&C's means "in my opinion" having neg-eq for a long longer than I ever did.
Only my two pence worth. Now back to pay.
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5milesbaby
Why not just come in and work for food ? It'll save NATS a fortune and you'll be helping them out a lot. Robber Barron might even let you carry his barstool for him, whilst telling you how wonderful he is and what an honour it must be for you to work for him. 
privatesandwiches
This hits the nail on the head. Everyone has different principles, and some people like just to think of themselves or the moment, not their colleagues or the long term. Unless the union make a policy decision, then it's left to individual choice and not everyone will have the same opinion on doing AAVAs as everyone else.
Min Stack
That's the long term, and it WILL happen, simply because we've already proven what an impotent lot we are, as well as being a greedy lot who only think of grabbing money today, even if it is selling ourselves short or shafting other people. Cheap labour (AAVAs), freely given goodwill, and professional pride in making the system work (in spite of chronic manpower shortages and incompetent management) all play their part in Robber Barron and his management team taking us for everything they can. We don't show backbone and say enough is enough. We don't force the issue by making management face up to the state they have got us in to. Instead some of us continue to pull them out the mire, some of us moan and winge, some of us grab a fast buck without thinking about the effects.
Every unit has an operational requirement. Almost without exception, every unit is short of the number of staff required to provide it. The requirement is agreed with SRG and is part of the 'licence' held by the unit. Yet we get by, simply because we let it happen, by running short, by going the extra mile, by bringing in cheap labour, by exercising professionalism. And who gets the benefit of this ?? The bonus management leeches. Who gets put under pressure or scrutiny when it all goes 'Pete Tong' ? Not the management that's for sure. You don't see them for dust, except for them trying to get operational people to justify their decisions, whilst bleating about the poor state of the company and trying to place guilt on us. The Ops Room folks get left to pick up the pieces again and again.
The sad fact is that it will be like this because we let it happen. We don't demand the correct staffing is in place, or put on all the flow measures that we should be if it isn't. Until we change our own culture and become hard nosed bastards like Robber Barron, we'll remain in this state and be beaten down day after day, year after year. Even sadder is that we don't even need to step outside our T&C's to do so. All we need is for everyone to do only what they have been paid for and to operate sectors only as per the procedures. It will be painful on our customers initially, but then who has managed us in to the situation ?? Who deserves the wrath of the public ?? It can't be the 'staff' since they are doing what they are being paid to do. Nothing more and nothing less. It should be those who have got us in to this situation, through their actions, or lack of them. The unions should also be prepared to brief the public on what is needed to allow the system to work. Adequate staff and management who care not about their next bonus or Aston Martin, but care about NATS being one of the best providers of ATS in the world, run efficiently and safely not for profit, with adequate rewards for staff who don't grow on trees.
Mr777
Congratulations, you've 'top trumped' him. You are patronising ... and hypocritical
Or should I abstain like my peers tell me to, see the company struggle and maybe break, watch the pension fund collapse and then retire with nothing.
privatesandwiches
As for AAVA's, do them if you want or dont do them if you dont want to. There is always going to be someone who needs the money, is a tight arse and loves every penny, or just doesnt give a monkeys. An endless and generally pointless discussion until the unions backbone comes in the post........
Min Stack
When Mr B sees you guys keep coming in on your days off for extra cash he's going to think "hmm, these ATCO's obviously don't need all this time off, lets start reducing their leave" and you'll just lay back and let him do that will you because you "don't want to see the company struggle and maybe break, watch the pension fund collapse and then retire with nothing"? Because that's what he'll try and do next. I might as well start doing AAVA's again then if you boys don't appreciate me and keep NATS afloat with my cheap labour so that Mr B can afford to shaft you even more.
Every unit has an operational requirement. Almost without exception, every unit is short of the number of staff required to provide it. The requirement is agreed with SRG and is part of the 'licence' held by the unit. Yet we get by, simply because we let it happen, by running short, by going the extra mile, by bringing in cheap labour, by exercising professionalism. And who gets the benefit of this ?? The bonus management leeches. Who gets put under pressure or scrutiny when it all goes 'Pete Tong' ? Not the management that's for sure. You don't see them for dust, except for them trying to get operational people to justify their decisions, whilst bleating about the poor state of the company and trying to place guilt on us. The Ops Room folks get left to pick up the pieces again and again.
The sad fact is that it will be like this because we let it happen. We don't demand the correct staffing is in place, or put on all the flow measures that we should be if it isn't. Until we change our own culture and become hard nosed bastards like Robber Barron, we'll remain in this state and be beaten down day after day, year after year. Even sadder is that we don't even need to step outside our T&C's to do so. All we need is for everyone to do only what they have been paid for and to operate sectors only as per the procedures. It will be painful on our customers initially, but then who has managed us in to the situation ?? Who deserves the wrath of the public ?? It can't be the 'staff' since they are doing what they are being paid to do. Nothing more and nothing less. It should be those who have got us in to this situation, through their actions, or lack of them. The unions should also be prepared to brief the public on what is needed to allow the system to work. Adequate staff and management who care not about their next bonus or Aston Martin, but care about NATS being one of the best providers of ATS in the world, run efficiently and safely not for profit, with adequate rewards for staff who don't grow on trees.
Mr777
Sorry, but I find your comments a bit patronizing to be honest. I see your location is Scotland, so no doubt your house did only cost you 50p...or maybe you even had some change from that.
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Mr 777..Sorry, but I find your comments a bit patronizing to be honest. I see your location is Scotland, so no doubt your house did only cost you 50p...or maybe you even had some change from that.
No actually I paid 25p for mine but I think you will find living up here in Scotland we actually have a life and dont live with our heads up are arse's like I guess you folk do making comments like that!!!!!!!!!
No actually I paid 25p for mine but I think you will find living up here in Scotland we actually have a life and dont live with our heads up are arse's like I guess you folk do making comments like that!!!!!!!!!
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No actually I paid 25p for mine but I think you will find living up here in Scotland we actually have a life and dont live with our heads up are arse's like I guess you folk do making comments like that!!!!!!!!!
how do i sign up? oops.....too late, i validated at my first attempt.
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The point is proven
It's been proved before but once again the previous few posts have shown exactly how divided a workforce we are.
Instead of waving willys around and bickering we should be getting ready for the next and last chance to show management that we
a). Are united, at least over major issues
and
b). Have some balls.
Today and tomorrow there is the small matter of an SDC to discuss NSL. Chances are our airport workmates are going to see a few changes in Ts&Cs, or even see some airports walk away from NATS.
Then once NSL is screwed we will get the chance to vote in a paltry pay offer.
This company is going to ratsh!t as far as the number one priority (in managements minds) being ATC is concerned.
I've just read a response on the intranet to PBs long communication about dividends etc - seems to hit the nail on the head, talking about the demise of NATS as we know it and the banality of pleading poverty yet paying huge dividends.
We have a Chief Executive that thinks that we will sit by and let him tell us he can't afford to give us a decent pay rise, yet he can afford to give away a huge chunk of our profit to the Airlines. The worrying thing is, he may well be correct - he might get away with it bearing in mind all this pathetic bickering and lack of backbone.
Wake up and smell the coffee, this isn't about antagonising the haggis munchers or whatever, it's about your future, or what's left since PPP.
Anotherthing - Scottish ATCO who validated first attempt in TC, who has a negative equity house in Hampshire, who lost lots of money in property in the last housing decline, who has a while to go before drawing a pension that will be worth a fraction of what he signed up for... any more boxes I should tick? FFS
Instead of waving willys around and bickering we should be getting ready for the next and last chance to show management that we
a). Are united, at least over major issues
and
b). Have some balls.
Today and tomorrow there is the small matter of an SDC to discuss NSL. Chances are our airport workmates are going to see a few changes in Ts&Cs, or even see some airports walk away from NATS.
Then once NSL is screwed we will get the chance to vote in a paltry pay offer.
This company is going to ratsh!t as far as the number one priority (in managements minds) being ATC is concerned.
I've just read a response on the intranet to PBs long communication about dividends etc - seems to hit the nail on the head, talking about the demise of NATS as we know it and the banality of pleading poverty yet paying huge dividends.
We have a Chief Executive that thinks that we will sit by and let him tell us he can't afford to give us a decent pay rise, yet he can afford to give away a huge chunk of our profit to the Airlines. The worrying thing is, he may well be correct - he might get away with it bearing in mind all this pathetic bickering and lack of backbone.
Wake up and smell the coffee, this isn't about antagonising the haggis munchers or whatever, it's about your future, or what's left since PPP.
Anotherthing - Scottish ATCO who validated first attempt in TC, who has a negative equity house in Hampshire, who lost lots of money in property in the last housing decline, who has a while to go before drawing a pension that will be worth a fraction of what he signed up for... any more boxes I should tick? FFS
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"Then once NSL is screwed we will get the chance to vote in a paltry pay offer."
so are you already of the opinion that all or parts of NSL and its Union membership are a lost cause? (not exactly going to encourage solidarity, is it?) Aren't the Unions going to try to oppose any move to split the Company up further?
so are you already of the opinion that all or parts of NSL and its Union membership are a lost cause? (not exactly going to encourage solidarity, is it?) Aren't the Unions going to try to oppose any move to split the Company up further?
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Time for a change
On the subject of unions. Ours no longer seems to represent us, deals seem to done behind closed doors and by the time we get to hear of it it a done deal take it or leave it' or to coin a phrase "We recommend acceptance." Perhaps as a workforce we should vote with our feet put a motion of no confidence forward to the BEC and join the TGWU?