NATS UK ATCO Pay offer: What do you think?
Got my prospectus from the union today, but even though they put a convincing case I'm still feeling the need to vote no.
As I understand it we would be agreeing to 3 extra days work in return for an rpi pay rise (ie keeping the same buying power for 2% extra working days). We would be agreeing to screw the lowest paid workers of the team with the argument that they will eventually be earning loads at the top of the pay scale. That doesn't really help them now does it?
The union says we will not get a better deal than this, but does that mean that we have to accept a redution of conditions at every pay round? Is this the continuation of a slippery slope that will leave us like the pilots with little pay and no pensions? Do I have to worry that they will negotiate away everything I enjoy about our conditions? Should I look for a new career now before its too late? Am I being too melodramatic? What do you think?
As I understand it we would be agreeing to 3 extra days work in return for an rpi pay rise (ie keeping the same buying power for 2% extra working days). We would be agreeing to screw the lowest paid workers of the team with the argument that they will eventually be earning loads at the top of the pay scale. That doesn't really help them now does it?
The union says we will not get a better deal than this, but does that mean that we have to accept a redution of conditions at every pay round? Is this the continuation of a slippery slope that will leave us like the pilots with little pay and no pensions? Do I have to worry that they will negotiate away everything I enjoy about our conditions? Should I look for a new career now before its too late? Am I being too melodramatic? What do you think?
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Originally Posted by Dan Dare
Got my prospectus from the union today, but even though they put a convincing case I'm still feeling the need to vote no.
As I understand it we would be agreeing to 3 extra days work in return for an rpi pay rise (ie keeping the same buying power for 2% extra working days). We would be agreeing to screw the lowest paid workers of the team with the argument that they will eventually be earning loads at the top of the pay scale. That doesn't really help them now does it?
The union says we will not get a better deal than this, but does that mean that we have to accept a reduction of conditions at every pay round? Is this the continuation of a slippery slope that will leave us like the pilots with little pay and no pensions? Do I have to worry that they will negotiate away everything I enjoy about our conditions? Should I look for a new career now before its too late? Am I being too melodramatic? What do you think?
As I understand it we would be agreeing to 3 extra days work in return for an rpi pay rise (ie keeping the same buying power for 2% extra working days). We would be agreeing to screw the lowest paid workers of the team with the argument that they will eventually be earning loads at the top of the pay scale. That doesn't really help them now does it?
The union says we will not get a better deal than this, but does that mean that we have to accept a reduction of conditions at every pay round? Is this the continuation of a slippery slope that will leave us like the pilots with little pay and no pensions? Do I have to worry that they will negotiate away everything I enjoy about our conditions? Should I look for a new career now before its too late? Am I being too melodramatic? What do you think?
'trust me I'm an ATS provider manager'
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Dan Dare,
You are already being paid for those "3 extra days". If you happen to be at a unit that hasn't needed to use them,well lucky you. All this does is bring all units into line and allow NATS to utilise what they are already paying for.
chevvron, Not much can be done about your council tax I'm afraid. How will you lose out on ASAP? I understand you will be paid according to the roster you actually work. So if you have chosen not to do a full range of shifts why should you receive the same as a colleague who makes themself available for all shifts for that unit?
Bex. How would a shorter deal guarantee a better deal?? Not that many strings from what I was presented with. what would you be asking for if this were to be rejected?
You are already being paid for those "3 extra days". If you happen to be at a unit that hasn't needed to use them,well lucky you. All this does is bring all units into line and allow NATS to utilise what they are already paying for.
chevvron, Not much can be done about your council tax I'm afraid. How will you lose out on ASAP? I understand you will be paid according to the roster you actually work. So if you have chosen not to do a full range of shifts why should you receive the same as a colleague who makes themself available for all shifts for that unit?
Bex. How would a shorter deal guarantee a better deal?? Not that many strings from what I was presented with. what would you be asking for if this were to be rejected?
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250kts
Good reply; the 3 extra days are used by a lot of units already....
As for shift allowance; I agree - why should units that finish at 10 at night get the same money as 24hr units?? Why should someone who refuses to do nights for 'personal reasons' at a 24hr unit get the full shift allowance?
I don't see too many strings attached - how would we achieve a better pay deal?? We are already screwing the new entrants to £10,000 a year. Any gain for ATCOs will have to come from somewhere.
Yes the company made a profit last year, but in comparison to the amount of outstanding debt, it was not much, especially as we are having to deal with new lower route charges.
I would like more money but I do not know how it is going to be achieved.... If the vote is NO I hope people are prepared for no pay rise this year...... the union has had 2 years to prepare for this one and it is still not implemented on time, even if we return a yes vote it will not be in the pay until March at the earliest - 3 months after the due date.
I personally will be voting no, but not because I think the main offer is rubbish; I think that as a company we are going to go rapidly downhill if we do not attract the right people into the college in the first place (if the college remains much longer - tho thats a different rumour); we cannot pay peanuts if we do not want to attract monkeys.
The other reason I will be voting no is the OJTI training pay. I think it is a very bad idea to encourage unscrupulous OJTIs to train longer and longer to get more money - again, it will not benefit the trainee and that, in turn will not benefit us. There is also a great risk of select individuals being given more training slots if they are mates with the rosterer.
There are watches at certain units that have not validated ab initios for years - we should not encourage these people by giving them more money; they should have their OJTI ticket ripped up.
We could get money savings if we trimmed down some of the most limp wristed and ineffectual management I have ever worked with; and stopped signing up to courses such as TRM. If we do have to do these courses, why not do them in house, instead of wasting £3 million on hotels etc??
Good reply; the 3 extra days are used by a lot of units already....
As for shift allowance; I agree - why should units that finish at 10 at night get the same money as 24hr units?? Why should someone who refuses to do nights for 'personal reasons' at a 24hr unit get the full shift allowance?
I don't see too many strings attached - how would we achieve a better pay deal?? We are already screwing the new entrants to £10,000 a year. Any gain for ATCOs will have to come from somewhere.
Yes the company made a profit last year, but in comparison to the amount of outstanding debt, it was not much, especially as we are having to deal with new lower route charges.
I would like more money but I do not know how it is going to be achieved.... If the vote is NO I hope people are prepared for no pay rise this year...... the union has had 2 years to prepare for this one and it is still not implemented on time, even if we return a yes vote it will not be in the pay until March at the earliest - 3 months after the due date.
I personally will be voting no, but not because I think the main offer is rubbish; I think that as a company we are going to go rapidly downhill if we do not attract the right people into the college in the first place (if the college remains much longer - tho thats a different rumour); we cannot pay peanuts if we do not want to attract monkeys.
The other reason I will be voting no is the OJTI training pay. I think it is a very bad idea to encourage unscrupulous OJTIs to train longer and longer to get more money - again, it will not benefit the trainee and that, in turn will not benefit us. There is also a great risk of select individuals being given more training slots if they are mates with the rosterer.
There are watches at certain units that have not validated ab initios for years - we should not encourage these people by giving them more money; they should have their OJTI ticket ripped up.
We could get money savings if we trimmed down some of the most limp wristed and ineffectual management I have ever worked with; and stopped signing up to courses such as TRM. If we do have to do these courses, why not do them in house, instead of wasting £3 million on hotels etc??
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I would like to think the banding thing would not rear it's ugly head... I am band 5 so it's easy for me to say that (some might say).
However, I wanted a scottish (any) airport as my first choice; I got sent down the area route. I wanted Prestwick; I got TC.
The pay rise is the same percentage regardless of what band people are in. People at Band 1 or 2 units who whinge about the highly manned (and therefore vote powerful) band 5 units should think what their comments are doing.... it will only turn some people against them.
There are plenty of vacancies at Band 5 units, we are screaming out for people... come down and work here. If you're excuse is you like where you live or you like working at your particular unit; then I am afraid I don't have time for peoples whingeing.
There are several people where I work who are dying to move north for various reasons, but we cannot spare them. They know what they would be paid if they moved; they think it is a fair pay.
The banding, although not 100% accurate, is a pretty good system. The 3 Band 5 controlling units are Band 5 for a reason, particularly Swanwick and TC.
However, I wanted a scottish (any) airport as my first choice; I got sent down the area route. I wanted Prestwick; I got TC.
The pay rise is the same percentage regardless of what band people are in. People at Band 1 or 2 units who whinge about the highly manned (and therefore vote powerful) band 5 units should think what their comments are doing.... it will only turn some people against them.
There are plenty of vacancies at Band 5 units, we are screaming out for people... come down and work here. If you're excuse is you like where you live or you like working at your particular unit; then I am afraid I don't have time for peoples whingeing.
There are several people where I work who are dying to move north for various reasons, but we cannot spare them. They know what they would be paid if they moved; they think it is a fair pay.
The banding, although not 100% accurate, is a pretty good system. The 3 Band 5 controlling units are Band 5 for a reason, particularly Swanwick and TC.
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Chevvron,
I am not saying that band 1 or 2 units are not short of staff; I am certainly not saying they do not deserve more money.
Farnborough for one works it's socks off with IFR traffic against puddle jumpers.
What I am saying is that people at units that have been banded lower than the Band 5 units should not whinge and start saying that high paid Band 5 units will vote for the pay rise because "We're all right Jack"
What I am trying to get across is the point that people who say stupid things like that are alienating units, and certainly not endearing themselves to their 'rich' vote heavy colleagues.
A lucid argument as to why people should vote NO is the way ahead, not a statement along the lines of "if you vote yes you are stitching us up and thinking only of yourselves"
I am not saying that band 1 or 2 units are not short of staff; I am certainly not saying they do not deserve more money.
Farnborough for one works it's socks off with IFR traffic against puddle jumpers.
What I am saying is that people at units that have been banded lower than the Band 5 units should not whinge and start saying that high paid Band 5 units will vote for the pay rise because "We're all right Jack"
What I am trying to get across is the point that people who say stupid things like that are alienating units, and certainly not endearing themselves to their 'rich' vote heavy colleagues.
A lucid argument as to why people should vote NO is the way ahead, not a statement along the lines of "if you vote yes you are stitching us up and thinking only of yourselves"
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ujatco_535 said"As for shift allowance; I agree - why should units that finish at 10 at night get the same money as 24hr units?? Why should someone who refuses to do nights for 'personal reasons' at a 24hr unit get the full shift allowance?"
If you read the offer paper they do:-
100% ASAP paid to qualifying ATCOs whose shift rosters include night duties AND weekend working OR ATCOs whose anticipated shift rosters normally require a minimum of 203 annual attendances.
So those who do shirk nights still get the same.
You've gotta watch these people.....
If you read the offer paper they do:-
100% ASAP paid to qualifying ATCOs whose shift rosters include night duties AND weekend working OR ATCOs whose anticipated shift rosters normally require a minimum of 203 annual attendances.
So those who do shirk nights still get the same.
You've gotta watch these people.....
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"Lower pay for new entrants - now theres an idea - lets reduce it so much that the calibre of applicant is reduced (I've heard as low as 10-11K). OK, they may not pass the aptitude tests, but how long will the company accept lower numbers of entrants before 'massaging' the scores needed to join??
They've already bug***ed up the training by going too far at the college. We will end up with people with such a lack of aviation knowledge (I do not mean we need more spotters), that it will be dangerous. How does that tie in with becoming ???"
So are you saying that people who want to be ATCO's...........are all spotters and have no idea about aviation or even any commitment to the industry?
As someone who has her apptitude tests on Tuesday, you're doing a very good job of putting me off-after all, who would want to work with people who have an attitude like that?!!
There are too many narrow minded people like this on here..........you should all be a bit more encouraging!!!!
They've already bug***ed up the training by going too far at the college. We will end up with people with such a lack of aviation knowledge (I do not mean we need more spotters), that it will be dangerous. How does that tie in with becoming ???"
So are you saying that people who want to be ATCO's...........are all spotters and have no idea about aviation or even any commitment to the industry?
As someone who has her apptitude tests on Tuesday, you're doing a very good job of putting me off-after all, who would want to work with people who have an attitude like that?!!
There are too many narrow minded people like this on here..........you should all be a bit more encouraging!!!!
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Hi,
I am most definately not saying that!! What I am stating is that due to continual cuts, people may be put off joining the college - in particular, those on a second career.
The courses have more success if there is a good cross section of people.... the older people can bring a bit of maturity to the course,the young ones can get the oldies to lighten up!
The way the college is going now, in my opinion, is a backward step - we are supposed to be the world leader in ATM, yet we are reducing the training time given to students with sometimes detrimental affect.
There is even a rumour that in the future, initial college training will be done abroad, in a means to save money - how can the company do this and claim to be the world leader?
People who apply to NATS should be given the best opportunity to succeed - and at the moment, upper management is not working to this.
'Spotters' et al are more than welcome - but not exclusively so - we need a good cross section of people, to keep the company fresh.
Good luck in what is a great job, workng with a great bunch of people (i.e. the people on the shop floor)
I am most definately not saying that!! What I am stating is that due to continual cuts, people may be put off joining the college - in particular, those on a second career.
The courses have more success if there is a good cross section of people.... the older people can bring a bit of maturity to the course,the young ones can get the oldies to lighten up!
The way the college is going now, in my opinion, is a backward step - we are supposed to be the world leader in ATM, yet we are reducing the training time given to students with sometimes detrimental affect.
There is even a rumour that in the future, initial college training will be done abroad, in a means to save money - how can the company do this and claim to be the world leader?
People who apply to NATS should be given the best opportunity to succeed - and at the moment, upper management is not working to this.
'Spotters' et al are more than welcome - but not exclusively so - we need a good cross section of people, to keep the company fresh.
Good luck in what is a great job, workng with a great bunch of people (i.e. the people on the shop floor)
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Originally Posted by speedbird2727
Anyone got any info on trainee salaries? Ive read on adverts that the its circa £17k, but reading some of these posts im now not too sure!
Salary while at CATC will be circa £10,000, with a modest living allowance.
On leaving the college sucessfully it will rise to £15,000 and then £16,000 a year later.
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Originally Posted by Gonzo
TATC,
Union literature I have in front of me says that under the new pay deal, 10k at the college, as you say, and then 18k, then 19k a year later.
Union literature I have in front of me says that under the new pay deal, 10k at the college, as you say, and then 18k, then 19k a year later.
Thanks.
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● Average time at DAT&S (College) for an Area TATC (Trainee) will be around 12 months and average time at DAT&S for an Airport TATC will be around 9 months (includes some element of re-coursing)
● TATC moves onto TP 1 scale on posting to Unit and TP 2 scale after 24 months. LACC/LTCC and Heathrow are Band 5.
● TATC then moves on to V scales after initial validation (no change)
● Holding a student at a Unit will increase length of time spent on revised scales
DAT&S £10K (Tax efficient)
TP1
Band Base £15K
Band 1 £15K
Band 2 £15K
Band 3 £15K
Band 4 £16.5K
Band 5 £18K
TP2 (24mths)
Band Base £16K
Band 1 £16K
Band 2 £16K
Band 3 £16K
Band 4 £17.5K
Band 5 £19K
● TATC moves onto TP 1 scale on posting to Unit and TP 2 scale after 24 months. LACC/LTCC and Heathrow are Band 5.
● TATC then moves on to V scales after initial validation (no change)
● Holding a student at a Unit will increase length of time spent on revised scales
DAT&S £10K (Tax efficient)
TP1
Band Base £15K
Band 1 £15K
Band 2 £15K
Band 3 £15K
Band 4 £16.5K
Band 5 £18K
TP2 (24mths)
Band Base £16K
Band 1 £16K
Band 2 £16K
Band 3 £16K
Band 4 £17.5K
Band 5 £19K
