NATS UK ATCO Pay offer: What do you think?
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The only vote we got on privitisation was the oppurtunity to vote for Tony Blair and his "our skies are not for sale " manifesto promise. He lied, we got sold. I'll never make that mistake again.
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you all vote to accept privatisation three or four years ago?
NO WE DID NOT!
The staff have no say over whether or not "our air was for sale"'
The pay rise is seen as being "generous" but as usual it is devisive,and IMHO another indication of Prospects' total disregard for the airfields.....
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tribekey
there's a whole world of difference between a Company trimming down surplus staff numbers using the applicable 'standard methods', and the same Company using a large Union to get (bribe?) their members to effectively vote another smaller Union's members out of a job by tying the big Union's pay offer to the little Union's staffing issues.
This below-the-belt tactic becomes even more despicable when many of those who vote for such a move will not be in eventual receipt of the applicable cash incentive themselves - they have to vote in favour of the entire deal - even the bits that don't apply to them, or they don't agree with - or they don't get the bit of the pay deal that does relate to them!
Its bad enough that the Management has stooped so low, but it's even worse that some members of the same Company workforce think so little of their colleagues as to even entertain the idea of voting in favour. Irrespective of whether the deal being offered to the ATCOs is good or bad, IT SHOULD NOT BE TIED IN TO ATSA STAFFING ISSUES! Some ATCOs don't even seem to think that what's going on here is morally wrong - this just totally sucks.
there's a whole world of difference between a Company trimming down surplus staff numbers using the applicable 'standard methods', and the same Company using a large Union to get (bribe?) their members to effectively vote another smaller Union's members out of a job by tying the big Union's pay offer to the little Union's staffing issues.
This below-the-belt tactic becomes even more despicable when many of those who vote for such a move will not be in eventual receipt of the applicable cash incentive themselves - they have to vote in favour of the entire deal - even the bits that don't apply to them, or they don't agree with - or they don't get the bit of the pay deal that does relate to them!
Its bad enough that the Management has stooped so low, but it's even worse that some members of the same Company workforce think so little of their colleagues as to even entertain the idea of voting in favour. Irrespective of whether the deal being offered to the ATCOs is good or bad, IT SHOULD NOT BE TIED IN TO ATSA STAFFING ISSUES! Some ATCOs don't even seem to think that what's going on here is morally wrong - this just totally sucks.
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tribekey, you seem to have completely grasped the wrong end of a stick. the only votes made on PPP were fixed at the Houses of Parliament. this deal sucks for a number of reasons, the ATCO1 deals, the SAMOS/ATSA underhandedness, BUPA separatism, 3 years and a whole lot more - we must vote NO
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I will be giving it my best effort to convince everybody on my watch at TC to VOTE NO.Come on guys and gals we are in the best position ever , 3 year deal what!!! AAVA agreed for the next 6yrs and not inflation linked!!!The company is running on AAVA's at the moment.As for meeting staffing requirements we 238 students through the college by 2008!!! i don't think so we have never achieved this before and with tougher selection on the way it's not going to improve.TC in the summer was using 40 yes 40 AAVA a week so that shows how many we are short, as for no money in the pot "delays are down and traffic is up by roughly 7%and that means 7% more profit for the company.
Waisting money!!! try the cost of building CTC for example thats where its all going!!!!!!!!
Over and out
Waisting money!!! try the cost of building CTC for example thats where its all going!!!!!!!!
Over and out
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OK-let's assume the deal is kicked out. What credibiity/mandate do you think the negotiating boys and girls would have having already recommended this as the best available?
Having attended a fairly lively meeting the other day, the reps indicated the importance of this not being linked to the £50m savings imposed by CAA and also that this was a deal for all ATCOs despite the fact that NATS made it clear that they wanted NSL increases to be at an absolute minimum.
I'm just at a loss to think that in the present climate thery could have done significantly better than they have. At the end of the day it could be,say,1%-2% better over the period and maybe much more divisive than this deal appears to be.
Having attended a fairly lively meeting the other day, the reps indicated the importance of this not being linked to the £50m savings imposed by CAA and also that this was a deal for all ATCOs despite the fact that NATS made it clear that they wanted NSL increases to be at an absolute minimum.
I'm just at a loss to think that in the present climate thery could have done significantly better than they have. At the end of the day it could be,say,1%-2% better over the period and maybe much more divisive than this deal appears to be.
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thanks to those who answered, sorry if i made a mistake over the original 'vote' for privatisation-the info came from someone in nats. I also take the point about the deal effecting nats atsa's, as several have said you all need to stand together on that point, however, we've been in exactly the same situation(at non nats unit), all staff saying they would only accept a deal if the atsa's benefit too but when it comes to the crunch this doesn't happen.
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tribekey
'they would only accept a deal if the atsa's benefit too but when it comes to the crunch this doesn't happen.'
The history of ATCO support for ATSAs within NATS doesn't make for good reading. Judging by the responses tabled on here and in the NATS forum, with a few notable exceptions (a level of support for the ATSA position?), I would expect the ATCOs overall to vote out the offer - but it won't be anything to do with the ATSA job issue that decides it for them. The bit that's dividing them (as always) is that some stand to do better than others within their own ranks.
Leopards don't change their spots..........
What I'm concerned about now is how my own Union is going to tackle the issue
'they would only accept a deal if the atsa's benefit too but when it comes to the crunch this doesn't happen.'
The history of ATCO support for ATSAs within NATS doesn't make for good reading. Judging by the responses tabled on here and in the NATS forum, with a few notable exceptions (a level of support for the ATSA position?), I would expect the ATCOs overall to vote out the offer - but it won't be anything to do with the ATSA job issue that decides it for them. The bit that's dividing them (as always) is that some stand to do better than others within their own ranks.
Leopards don't change their spots..........
What I'm concerned about now is how my own Union is going to tackle the issue
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Interesting thread... I wish you all luck...
We are going through contract negotiations over here on the other side of the pond too and ours is looking somewhat bleak right now...
The govt. wants to cut back and there is NOTHING about any sort of increase. Right now if the govt. has thier way with us, we are looking at a five year pay freeze with NO cost of living increases at all as well as no incentive bonuses for doing well. The also want to do away with all of our differentials (additional pay to our base pay, what I think you are refering to when you say spine.). They want to do away with night differential which is 10% for working between 1800 and 0600. (All differentials in the US are paid for actual time worked by the minute.) Training differential which is 10% and is only for time plugged in, which is normally in the five hour or plus range for a day. Sunday pay which is 25% for working the sunday. CIC pay which is controller in charge which you get if working the supervisors position, this is also 10%.
On top of this they want to start a B-scale for new hires to come in at a lesser pay band which will always be lower than what we get today. The new hires at the academy used to get GS-7 pay plus what we call per diem for when you travel. Today the folks get GS-1 with no per diem. They are elligible for govt. assistance for the poor while working there to give you an indication what the pay is like...
I feel for y'all's plight both in pay and with the ATSA issue. (We did away with most of our ATSA's long ago as they weren't deemed as useful as having a full controller by the FAA.)
Take care and Merry Christmas to all of you...
regards
Scott
We are going through contract negotiations over here on the other side of the pond too and ours is looking somewhat bleak right now...
The govt. wants to cut back and there is NOTHING about any sort of increase. Right now if the govt. has thier way with us, we are looking at a five year pay freeze with NO cost of living increases at all as well as no incentive bonuses for doing well. The also want to do away with all of our differentials (additional pay to our base pay, what I think you are refering to when you say spine.). They want to do away with night differential which is 10% for working between 1800 and 0600. (All differentials in the US are paid for actual time worked by the minute.) Training differential which is 10% and is only for time plugged in, which is normally in the five hour or plus range for a day. Sunday pay which is 25% for working the sunday. CIC pay which is controller in charge which you get if working the supervisors position, this is also 10%.
On top of this they want to start a B-scale for new hires to come in at a lesser pay band which will always be lower than what we get today. The new hires at the academy used to get GS-7 pay plus what we call per diem for when you travel. Today the folks get GS-1 with no per diem. They are elligible for govt. assistance for the poor while working there to give you an indication what the pay is like...
I feel for y'all's plight both in pay and with the ATSA issue. (We did away with most of our ATSA's long ago as they weren't deemed as useful as having a full controller by the FAA.)
Take care and Merry Christmas to all of you...
regards
Scott
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Scott, our pay ladder points are aka spine points, and you can jump an extra point for being an OJTI and examiner. Our differentials for nights/shifts is UHP which is about to be renamed and changed to cover those that no longer do nights or weekends or both due to being part time or at a non-24 hr unit. Someone able for the full normal palete of shifts will get exactly the same, someone doing permenant nights gets 125% of current, and those not able for something will get either 75% or 50% of current payment. The current payment is about £4500 per year for all grades gross and thats for weekends, nights, bank holidays, Christmas, New Year, Easter, starting any shift before 7am and finishing any shift after 8pm and is paid currently to everybody who falls under any or all of the catergories listed. We do however get compensated extra days leave every year for working the bank holidays etc (8 days for everybody usually).
Everybodies pay increases by one spine point every April 1st until you reach the top of the scale.
But the new deal needs voting in yet..........
Everybodies pay increases by one spine point every April 1st until you reach the top of the scale.
But the new deal needs voting in yet..........
Manchesters Most Wanted PPRuNer
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With regard to the issue involving the transferral of SAMOS duties from ATSAs to ATCOs - is this to enable airfields to get rid of ATSA cover during night shifts only?
Or something more sinister?
I'm surprised that PCS have colluded with this seemingly?
Or something more sinister?
I'm surprised that PCS have colluded with this seemingly?
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Only an observationm but....,may I remind that in the last two decades that some NATS staff took on the jobs of Met Office Observers.This caused inter union discussions on a large scale because of the obvious job reductions that ensued for one group of workers to the benefit of the ATSA grade.Many reasoned arguments both pro/con were put forward at the time.Is it not history repeating itself ?
Can the staff wishing to repeal the current proposals hand on heart say, that if time were reversed that they wouldn't have taken on these extra duties.
Can the staff wishing to repeal the current proposals hand on heart say, that if time were reversed that they wouldn't have taken on these extra duties.
StandupfortheUlstermen
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Well, all our ATCO's here at Brizzel, are Met rated so we do it anyway, and the ATSA's don't do nights. God help you all if they use us as an example. Still, an extra 2% for doing met sounds nice.
Funny someone brings up the subject of a 'vote' on privatisation; way back in the mid '70's when it was proposed to set up the CAA, all NATS employees (NATCS as it was then) were offered the chance to sign for the CAA or remain in the D of T who actually 'owned' NATS then. A lot of people actually did choose to remain in the civil service, and were found jobs there.
I don't recall any such option being made available when NATS split from the CAA.
250kt:
maybe the 'negotiating boys and girls' should have gone for a vote before telling NATS Management 'yes'.
I don't recall any such option being made available when NATS split from the CAA.
250kt:
maybe the 'negotiating boys and girls' should have gone for a vote before telling NATS Management 'yes'.
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nats,
A lot of ATCOs I know are Qualified Met Observers. [One guy went on a course as an ATCO [non NATS] then went on a Met course as a NATS ATSA
As you may or may not know, the Met was done by the MoD, hence the "switch" to ATC[ers]
At Manch, the Met Observer stayed "on site" [on the a/f] for quite a while until the ATSAs were "qualified"....[as SAMOS] met obs.
On "single manning", i.e. one ATSA at night, the ATSA is allowed a "Two hour responibity free break", so SAMOS goes "automatic" for two hours.
Also, [at Manch] we do not have any ATCOs currently valid/qualified on SAMOS.
As to "The training"
wot I got....was
A few hours in the Training Section....
8 hours OJTI [16 wx obs] with the Training Section
A "Test" with a Qualified Met/SAMOS examiner
That is how I got my SAMOS certificate. NOTE, not a Met Observers Cert .
I was trained by ATSAs.......will I train an ATCO?????
watp,iktch
A lot of ATCOs I know are Qualified Met Observers. [One guy went on a course as an ATCO [non NATS] then went on a Met course as a NATS ATSA
As you may or may not know, the Met was done by the MoD, hence the "switch" to ATC[ers]
At Manch, the Met Observer stayed "on site" [on the a/f] for quite a while until the ATSAs were "qualified"....[as SAMOS] met obs.
On "single manning", i.e. one ATSA at night, the ATSA is allowed a "Two hour responibity free break", so SAMOS goes "automatic" for two hours.
Also, [at Manch] we do not have any ATCOs currently valid/qualified on SAMOS.
As to "The training"
wot I got....was
A few hours in the Training Section....
8 hours OJTI [16 wx obs] with the Training Section
A "Test" with a Qualified Met/SAMOS examiner
That is how I got my SAMOS certificate. NOTE, not a Met Observers Cert .
I was trained by ATSAs.......will I train an ATCO?????
watp,iktch
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chiglet
'I was trained by ATSAs.......will I train an ATCO?????'
Unfortunately, you won't be asked to - they will appoint in-house mentors (same as appeared recently at LL ; 2 from CC and 1 from KK), and the Met Office guys will do the check-out at the end.
For this task, sadly, the question as to whether the station ATSAs will/will not train ATCOs is irrelevent - management will find a way around it.
Anyway, if we did, we'd want paying for it!
'I was trained by ATSAs.......will I train an ATCO?????'
Unfortunately, you won't be asked to - they will appoint in-house mentors (same as appeared recently at LL ; 2 from CC and 1 from KK), and the Met Office guys will do the check-out at the end.
For this task, sadly, the question as to whether the station ATSAs will/will not train ATCOs is irrelevent - management will find a way around it.
Anyway, if we did, we'd want paying for it!
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Well, seeing as this has spilled out of the NATS forum, I may as well make it relevant to the Non-Nats peeps out there.
This pay deal also allows for a Band Zero. Ask Luton, Southampton (and Brizzel?) what Band One is like compared to five?
Anyway, the new band zero/base band is to allow NATS to continue its foray into airport contracts with lower bids. So when NATS comes in and nabs the contract at your aerodrome, you will be on the most derogatory pay scale imaginable - a pay scale rated as ZERO!
VL
VOTING NO
This pay deal also allows for a Band Zero. Ask Luton, Southampton (and Brizzel?) what Band One is like compared to five?
Anyway, the new band zero/base band is to allow NATS to continue its foray into airport contracts with lower bids. So when NATS comes in and nabs the contract at your aerodrome, you will be on the most derogatory pay scale imaginable - a pay scale rated as ZERO!
VL
VOTING NO
Vector line - that's a new one I hadn't heard.
And our supposed union reps actually agreed to all this? (on top of the union demanding a 20% increase in subscriptions)
And our supposed union reps actually agreed to all this? (on top of the union demanding a 20% increase in subscriptions)