NATS UK ATCO Pay offer: What do you think?
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chevvron,
Have they told management "yes"? I doubt it.
What I think they will have stated is that they believe they have gone as far as they can in terms of a negotiation and that the deal can be recommended to the members but would need to be balloted upon. Now I certainly don't profess to know as much as any of the negotiating team on the state of the company or what their objectives for an overall package were but I have to say that their arguments in favour of the deal were very strong and logical.
White hart.
Didn't all permanent ATSAs recieve a payment earlier this year to allow non permanent staff to be recruited into the grade so it would be a last in 1st out system? Sounds like you took a bung to help ensure you wouldn't be 1st in line to lose your job. Do we have any evidence any where in the country of ATSAs having been forced into redundancy?? My impression is that NATS are an excellent employer in that respect but no doubt I'll be given numerous examples in the coming few days to prove me wrong.
Have they told management "yes"? I doubt it.
What I think they will have stated is that they believe they have gone as far as they can in terms of a negotiation and that the deal can be recommended to the members but would need to be balloted upon. Now I certainly don't profess to know as much as any of the negotiating team on the state of the company or what their objectives for an overall package were but I have to say that their arguments in favour of the deal were very strong and logical.
White hart.
Didn't all permanent ATSAs recieve a payment earlier this year to allow non permanent staff to be recruited into the grade so it would be a last in 1st out system? Sounds like you took a bung to help ensure you wouldn't be 1st in line to lose your job. Do we have any evidence any where in the country of ATSAs having been forced into redundancy?? My impression is that NATS are an excellent employer in that respect but no doubt I'll be given numerous examples in the coming few days to prove me wrong.
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250kts
'Didn't all permanent ATSAs recieve a payment earlier this year to allow non permanent staff to be recruited into the grade so it would be a last in 1st out system? Sounds like you took a bung to help ensure you wouldn't be 1st in line to lose your job. Do we have any evidence any where in the country of ATSAs having been forced into redundancy?? '
A payment was made to serving full time ATSA2s as part of a deal concerning staffing reductions NATS-wide as outlined under the 2005 Business Plan. For EGLL this meant a reduction of 5 ATSA posts (30 down to 25). Since the payment was agreed, there has never been any proposal or plan placed in front of us as to explain or identify exactly how this would be achieved - except that it all had to be completed before the move to the New VCR in Oct06. We are still at least 2 ATSAs over the agreed number of 25. There is absolutely no chance of VCA ATSAs being recruited into LL Tower doing the same job as myself as things stand, so, no, I would say that we didn't take a 'bung' to save our own positions. Based on the fact that over the last decade, the promotional prospects for LL ATSA2s has been probably the poorest within the Company, I'd say that we all knew without a doubt that some of us will be leaving via the back door before too long.
As to evidence of ATSA redundancy, I can only speak for what I have seen at LL. No redundancies as yet - BUT, with the above issue still to be resolved, no sufficient prospects of promotion within LL (there never has been!), other stations/centres facing a similarly identified overburden of ATSA posts in the not too distant future (iFacts, MACC etc), the issue of new staffing levels to be decided for our new VCR (the local proposal is for 20, but the target for management is 15 - can be achieved by getting ATCOs to do nights' SAMOS, no less!) - and a resounding message from Senior Management at our ATSA open meeting last July that there will be no pay-offs, and little or no chance of meaningful redeployment - you tell me how all this is going to be sorted without recourse to redundancy?
In the face of such difficulties, I find it very hard to see how the problem will be resolved without redundancy figuring somewhere in the equation, but, with regard to the issue being debated here, I am not prepared to stand aside quietly and just let another group of workers vote me out of a job for a paltry 2% in their paypackets.
I expect my Union to do EXACTLY what is required here - oppose such a move, and secure the best deal it can for the members it is supposed (!) to represent. As soon as this happens, and I see proof positive that the ATCO 'threat' has been removed, I shall put the soapbox away until next time........ and I'm sure there will be a next time
'Didn't all permanent ATSAs recieve a payment earlier this year to allow non permanent staff to be recruited into the grade so it would be a last in 1st out system? Sounds like you took a bung to help ensure you wouldn't be 1st in line to lose your job. Do we have any evidence any where in the country of ATSAs having been forced into redundancy?? '
A payment was made to serving full time ATSA2s as part of a deal concerning staffing reductions NATS-wide as outlined under the 2005 Business Plan. For EGLL this meant a reduction of 5 ATSA posts (30 down to 25). Since the payment was agreed, there has never been any proposal or plan placed in front of us as to explain or identify exactly how this would be achieved - except that it all had to be completed before the move to the New VCR in Oct06. We are still at least 2 ATSAs over the agreed number of 25. There is absolutely no chance of VCA ATSAs being recruited into LL Tower doing the same job as myself as things stand, so, no, I would say that we didn't take a 'bung' to save our own positions. Based on the fact that over the last decade, the promotional prospects for LL ATSA2s has been probably the poorest within the Company, I'd say that we all knew without a doubt that some of us will be leaving via the back door before too long.
As to evidence of ATSA redundancy, I can only speak for what I have seen at LL. No redundancies as yet - BUT, with the above issue still to be resolved, no sufficient prospects of promotion within LL (there never has been!), other stations/centres facing a similarly identified overburden of ATSA posts in the not too distant future (iFacts, MACC etc), the issue of new staffing levels to be decided for our new VCR (the local proposal is for 20, but the target for management is 15 - can be achieved by getting ATCOs to do nights' SAMOS, no less!) - and a resounding message from Senior Management at our ATSA open meeting last July that there will be no pay-offs, and little or no chance of meaningful redeployment - you tell me how all this is going to be sorted without recourse to redundancy?
In the face of such difficulties, I find it very hard to see how the problem will be resolved without redundancy figuring somewhere in the equation, but, with regard to the issue being debated here, I am not prepared to stand aside quietly and just let another group of workers vote me out of a job for a paltry 2% in their paypackets.
I expect my Union to do EXACTLY what is required here - oppose such a move, and secure the best deal it can for the members it is supposed (!) to represent. As soon as this happens, and I see proof positive that the ATCO 'threat' has been removed, I shall put the soapbox away until next time........ and I'm sure there will be a next time
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I have been reading White Harts genuine concerns with some interest. How would ATCOs feel if the management in their negotiations with PCS agreed that PCS grades could "do" the GMP position at LHR or the planners position on night shifts at Swanwick without reference to either Prospect or its members. I would suggest that ATCO colleagues would be rightly outraged. The fact that this has been agreed behind PCS colleagues backs and for such a derisory amount is insulting to everyone concerned.
Tony Fallows
Swanwick
Tony Fallows
Swanwick
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Perhaps we hould reserve our discussions for the NATS forum.
aIf you don't have access e-mail your user name and staff number to PPRUNERADAR and he will arrange access to the forum for you.
This is an important topic and not one best discussed in the public domain.
aIf you don't have access e-mail your user name and staff number to PPRUNERADAR and he will arrange access to the forum for you.
This is an important topic and not one best discussed in the public domain.
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AyrTC
The FIR job is not controlling as such, and as an ATCO that did the job for years I fully supported the transfer of task.
ATSA's are far better at providing the service than a significant number of controllers were:-
-much wider knowledge base, not sector-specific
-genuine zeal for the job, not somewhere to read the paper
-improved and more-specialised service due expertise and continuity
In the context of this thread, the FIR thing is a red herring, however the real point is the depth and amount of detail in the proposed offer that has not been explained at the various Prospect presentations....it is very apparent that different units have been given a sanitised and unit-specific positive gloss.
Does anyone doubt the value of Pprune?....the truth will be known.
ATSA's are far better at providing the service than a significant number of controllers were:-
-much wider knowledge base, not sector-specific
-genuine zeal for the job, not somewhere to read the paper
-improved and more-specialised service due expertise and continuity
In the context of this thread, the FIR thing is a red herring, however the real point is the depth and amount of detail in the proposed offer that has not been explained at the various Prospect presentations....it is very apparent that different units have been given a sanitised and unit-specific positive gloss.
Does anyone doubt the value of Pprune?....the truth will be known.
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Ayr TC,
The most important difference is that the ATCOs were given a vote by Prospect on whether to transfer the task to the ATSA grade which was carried by a majority vote. In the situation regarding the SAMOS task the ATSAs who do it now are not being given that choice.
The most important difference is that the ATCOs were given a vote by Prospect on whether to transfer the task to the ATSA grade which was carried by a majority vote. In the situation regarding the SAMOS task the ATSAs who do it now are not being given that choice.
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viaEGLL
The thread is about the ATCO pay offer, and the ATSA/SAMOS issue is part of that offer until we are informed officially that its not. Therefore, my/our input to this topic is relevant.
So, if you are as upfront with your comments to peoples' faces at work as you are on here, and you work at LL, you will know which ATSAs to speak to about this - perhaps you'd like to make yourself known to us and discuss your views in person?
The thread is about the ATCO pay offer, and the ATSA/SAMOS issue is part of that offer until we are informed officially that its not. Therefore, my/our input to this topic is relevant.
So, if you are as upfront with your comments to peoples' faces at work as you are on here, and you work at LL, you will know which ATSAs to speak to about this - perhaps you'd like to make yourself known to us and discuss your views in person?
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viaEGLL,
I am sure that it wasnt meant to be flippant, but your remark about the "hard done by ATSAs" comes across like that. The "hard done by ATSAs" are not some anonymous group of people, but colleagues who you have worked with for years, who are individuals with wives/partners/children/mortgages and who are very concerned for their futures because of those great responsibilities. In a few years when with the advent of new technologies ATCOs are being made redundant I would like to think that I would be a little more sensitive to their plight.
Tony Fallows
Swanwick
I am sure that it wasnt meant to be flippant, but your remark about the "hard done by ATSAs" comes across like that. The "hard done by ATSAs" are not some anonymous group of people, but colleagues who you have worked with for years, who are individuals with wives/partners/children/mortgages and who are very concerned for their futures because of those great responsibilities. In a few years when with the advent of new technologies ATCOs are being made redundant I would like to think that I would be a little more sensitive to their plight.
Tony Fallows
Swanwick
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i wasnt being flippent to those atsa's just making a point about the topic being discussed and how things spirral out of control . As far as i am concerned i was totally unaware of atsa's restructure being part of our deal so White Hart perhaps you should start up your own little topic as you seem to have plenty of views to air !!! Face to face or not as i said i have wife/children etc so i want the best deal for myself so i will know how you feel but some atsa's have had a pretty good number for many years and also a chip on there shoulders as if they are owed something
Over and Out
Over and Out
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viaEGLL
Looks like somebody got out of bed the wrong side today! I much prefer 'face to face', but hey! it's late, and you started it, so .......
' I wasnt being flippent to those atsa's just making a point about the topic being discussed and how things spirral out of control '
So what has 'spirraled (sic) out of control'? Your ability to understand what's being discussed in both the pay offer and on here, or your efforts to restrain yourself from showing your obvious disdain for your ATSA 'colleagues'? I shall use the word 'colleagues' guardedly here, because I suspect that if/when your anonimity is blown at your workplace, and the ATSAs learn just what you think of them, they will be your 'colleagues' no more.
'so White Hart perhaps you should start up your own little topic as you seem to have plenty of views to air !!!'
I certainly have no need to start a 'little topic' about the 'us and them' syndrome - you are SO eloquently demonstrating it on here, there's no need!
Those of us who work as ATSAs for NATS know ALL about that, as now do those people from outside NATS reading this thread! And yes, I do have plenty of views to air - and I have every right to do so - particularly on any subject that has the potential to affect me and my family on a personal level. If you don't like my point of view, then that's your prerogative - but it would be preferable if you refrained from attempting to belittle or intimidate either myself or any of my ATSA colleagues on here, or anywhere else for that matter. Keep it civil, and we'll keep it likewise. Being an ATCO doesn't bestow you with super powers or automatic intellectual superiority over others - its just a job title, and you're just another ATCO.
'Face to face or not as i said i have wife/children etc so i want the best deal for myself so i will know how you feel but some atsa's have had a pretty good number for many years and also a chip on there shoulders as if they are owed something'
I accept that you want the best deal - but so do I, and that doesn't include allowing people like you to determine my fate. As for knowing how I 'feel' - don't make me laugh! It's not your job that's potentially on the line here! And as for being 'owed something' - yes, perhaps we are! After years of being ignored on a professional level, regarded as second rate by people with a similar mentality to yourself - we're regarded as the menials of the Company - too bl**dy right we're owed something! For starters, how about a fair deal and a bit of honesty from the Company that employs us; some tangible support, (rather than just a free diary every year), from the Union that happily takes our dues every month; and maybe, just maybe, a little mutual respect from others with whom we work in ATC - and that includes you!
'As far as i am concerned i was totally unaware of atsa's restructure being part of our deal'
And that one statement speaks volumes! It highlights EXACTLY why our Union should speak up on behalf of the ATSAs with regard to this pay offer. By your own admission, you have absolutely NO IDEA about the impact of all of the issues on which you are about to vote; you've obviously made no attempt to look at it in any detail, except the bottom line - how much more cash you can cram in your already overstuffed wallet. I am sure that there will be others out there just like you, and it is this complete ignorance and disinterest of anybody and anything else that makes the pay offer, and those that promote it, so utterly despicable. At the end of the day, all you will be interested in is what YOU stand to gain at somebody else's expense - ultimately, maybe even mine! Selfish, selfish, bl**dy selfish!
'Over and Out'
Correct - as far as I am concerned (and probably any other ATSAs reading this) you most definitely are!!
Jeez .... I need a beer
Looks like somebody got out of bed the wrong side today! I much prefer 'face to face', but hey! it's late, and you started it, so .......
' I wasnt being flippent to those atsa's just making a point about the topic being discussed and how things spirral out of control '
So what has 'spirraled (sic) out of control'? Your ability to understand what's being discussed in both the pay offer and on here, or your efforts to restrain yourself from showing your obvious disdain for your ATSA 'colleagues'? I shall use the word 'colleagues' guardedly here, because I suspect that if/when your anonimity is blown at your workplace, and the ATSAs learn just what you think of them, they will be your 'colleagues' no more.
'so White Hart perhaps you should start up your own little topic as you seem to have plenty of views to air !!!'
I certainly have no need to start a 'little topic' about the 'us and them' syndrome - you are SO eloquently demonstrating it on here, there's no need!
Those of us who work as ATSAs for NATS know ALL about that, as now do those people from outside NATS reading this thread! And yes, I do have plenty of views to air - and I have every right to do so - particularly on any subject that has the potential to affect me and my family on a personal level. If you don't like my point of view, then that's your prerogative - but it would be preferable if you refrained from attempting to belittle or intimidate either myself or any of my ATSA colleagues on here, or anywhere else for that matter. Keep it civil, and we'll keep it likewise. Being an ATCO doesn't bestow you with super powers or automatic intellectual superiority over others - its just a job title, and you're just another ATCO.'Face to face or not as i said i have wife/children etc so i want the best deal for myself so i will know how you feel but some atsa's have had a pretty good number for many years and also a chip on there shoulders as if they are owed something'
I accept that you want the best deal - but so do I, and that doesn't include allowing people like you to determine my fate. As for knowing how I 'feel' - don't make me laugh! It's not your job that's potentially on the line here! And as for being 'owed something' - yes, perhaps we are! After years of being ignored on a professional level, regarded as second rate by people with a similar mentality to yourself - we're regarded as the menials of the Company - too bl**dy right we're owed something! For starters, how about a fair deal and a bit of honesty from the Company that employs us; some tangible support, (rather than just a free diary every year), from the Union that happily takes our dues every month; and maybe, just maybe, a little mutual respect from others with whom we work in ATC - and that includes you!
'As far as i am concerned i was totally unaware of atsa's restructure being part of our deal'
And that one statement speaks volumes! It highlights EXACTLY why our Union should speak up on behalf of the ATSAs with regard to this pay offer. By your own admission, you have absolutely NO IDEA about the impact of all of the issues on which you are about to vote; you've obviously made no attempt to look at it in any detail, except the bottom line - how much more cash you can cram in your already overstuffed wallet. I am sure that there will be others out there just like you, and it is this complete ignorance and disinterest of anybody and anything else that makes the pay offer, and those that promote it, so utterly despicable. At the end of the day, all you will be interested in is what YOU stand to gain at somebody else's expense - ultimately, maybe even mine! Selfish, selfish, bl**dy selfish!
'Over and Out'
Correct - as far as I am concerned (and probably any other ATSAs reading this) you most definitely are!!
Jeez .... I need a beer
Last edited by White Hart; 20th Dec 2005 at 23:56.
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Permission to intrude, speaking as an EX NATS employee, and an ATSA when I was...
Whilst I appreciate that this thread was started as an "ATCO Pay Deal" thread, why do SOME Atcos seem to have such a problem discussing ATSA issues as well?
Cushy number? Chips on shoulders? I can NAME a multitude of ATCOs who have had a cushy number from NATS, many of whom seemed to think that they were owed a living because once upon a time they were valid at a unit somewhere. Don't try and lump that one purely on ATSAs
Pay deals affect all staff, be it in a morale sense, a team work sense, or a taking of jobs sense. FIR - no ATCOs lost their jobs over that, likewise Flow being transferred. If the SAMOS issue has the potential to cost ATSA jobs, then yes, everyone should be aware of the outcome, and not just think its 2% with no comeback.
Most experienced ATCOs value the input from experienced ATSAs. Most experienced ATCOs know that "Over and Out" is incorrect R/T phraseology and would never ever use it, even in jest.
Mr Chips
Ex Area Control ATSA
Ex TC
Ex NATS
Whilst I appreciate that this thread was started as an "ATCO Pay Deal" thread, why do SOME Atcos seem to have such a problem discussing ATSA issues as well?
Cushy number? Chips on shoulders? I can NAME a multitude of ATCOs who have had a cushy number from NATS, many of whom seemed to think that they were owed a living because once upon a time they were valid at a unit somewhere. Don't try and lump that one purely on ATSAs
Pay deals affect all staff, be it in a morale sense, a team work sense, or a taking of jobs sense. FIR - no ATCOs lost their jobs over that, likewise Flow being transferred. If the SAMOS issue has the potential to cost ATSA jobs, then yes, everyone should be aware of the outcome, and not just think its 2% with no comeback.
Most experienced ATCOs value the input from experienced ATSAs. Most experienced ATCOs know that "Over and Out" is incorrect R/T phraseology and would never ever use it, even in jest.
Mr Chips
Ex Area Control ATSA
Ex TC
Ex NATS
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White Hart,
Point taken but i was just giving my view about the topic not them and us syndrome!!!
As you have issues with the union and the paydeal structure and to advise you the handout i received from the union is the only reference that anybody where i work has seen and been briefed on..
I have every respect for my atsa colleagues and do have a lot of atsa friends , so i do know their high working standards.
However, i have seen atsa with a chip on their shoulder just as you probalbly have seen atco's with the same .
So, as i originally said it was only the topic i was getting back too and if i had of been fully briefed by the wonderful union i am a member of i would probably have a more indepth knowledge.
Well,' read the rest of the post i hear you cry ' ok, when not knowing that it was a direct link to the pay then thats my downfall.
If the pay deal was down to a vote and this included your job on the line i would vote ' no' because in my view your jobs are more important than my extra spine point.
Over and Out was just a little attempt at a bit of humour thanks for the info Mr Chips
White Hart i think you should make this info more avaible to the uninformed people who are clearly not being given the full picture by the union.
Point taken but i was just giving my view about the topic not them and us syndrome!!!
As you have issues with the union and the paydeal structure and to advise you the handout i received from the union is the only reference that anybody where i work has seen and been briefed on..
I have every respect for my atsa colleagues and do have a lot of atsa friends , so i do know their high working standards.
However, i have seen atsa with a chip on their shoulder just as you probalbly have seen atco's with the same .
So, as i originally said it was only the topic i was getting back too and if i had of been fully briefed by the wonderful union i am a member of i would probably have a more indepth knowledge.
Well,' read the rest of the post i hear you cry ' ok, when not knowing that it was a direct link to the pay then thats my downfall.
If the pay deal was down to a vote and this included your job on the line i would vote ' no' because in my view your jobs are more important than my extra spine point.
Over and Out was just a little attempt at a bit of humour thanks for the info Mr Chips
White Hart i think you should make this info more avaible to the uninformed people who are clearly not being given the full picture by the union.
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For the benefit of any LL ATSAs, JonnyBG, callyoushortly, and any other interested parties - Heathrow PCS has confirmed tonight that Prospect has withdrawn the ATCO/SAMOS issue from their pay negotations.
Mr Chips - the postal service would appear to have resumed - chk yr PMs..
Mr Chips - the postal service would appear to have resumed - chk yr PMs..
Last edited by White Hart; 24th Dec 2005 at 21:41.
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WH
Many Thanks for the info. Glad it has been withdrawn at last. I can keep doing Met Obs on a last resort contingency basis at night (only if no ATSA available and all overtime refused!)
Good luck in your fight to keep the MET tasks. You do have the support of many controllers at the airports.
MERRY XMAS from JBG
Many Thanks for the info. Glad it has been withdrawn at last. I can keep doing Met Obs on a last resort contingency basis at night (only if no ATSA available and all overtime refused!)
Good luck in your fight to keep the MET tasks. You do have the support of many controllers at the airports.
MERRY XMAS from JBG
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jonny
many thanks for that - yes, a very good bit of news. Good luck with your own issues too - and i sincerely hope the Prospect big wigs don't stand on our toes again!!
I suppose I can put the soapbox away now .......... until next time
merry xmas 2 you 2
WH
Arthur J negus - PM for you
many thanks for that - yes, a very good bit of news. Good luck with your own issues too - and i sincerely hope the Prospect big wigs don't stand on our toes again!!
I suppose I can put the soapbox away now .......... until next time
merry xmas 2 you 2
WH
Arthur J negus - PM for you