NATS UK ATCO Pay offer: What do you think?
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Originally Posted by YourFriendlyATCO!
250Kts
You're living on a different planet.
You're living on a different planet.
Great post Nick. Maybe someone else living in the real world.
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It is clear that NATS are trying to attract a younger person to the ATCO job. That's understandable because they have more useful years left. With many ATCOs taking retirement in their early 50's - an 18 or 20 year old is going to be more productive than a 30 year old.
OK, the proposed salray isn't great, but for someone just out of 6th form it's not too bad. The college course is dramatically shorter than it used to be, so depending on discipline and unit, you can be out of there in 6 months and valid within another 9. Just over a year and you're on a decent pay scale. It's not even that hard. It's nowhere near as academic as any college or university course I have attended. The only stress is the practical summatives and they are no more nerve wracking than any other exam (unless you are particularly dodgy).
As a concession, maybe those streamed for area or London airports should be on a higher wage to start with?! because of the extra time to validation and the higher banding of those units.
£10k is not a good wage for a career change, but it is clear from this offer that NATS don't really care about attracting that type of applicant anymore.
OK, the proposed salray isn't great, but for someone just out of 6th form it's not too bad. The college course is dramatically shorter than it used to be, so depending on discipline and unit, you can be out of there in 6 months and valid within another 9. Just over a year and you're on a decent pay scale. It's not even that hard. It's nowhere near as academic as any college or university course I have attended. The only stress is the practical summatives and they are no more nerve wracking than any other exam (unless you are particularly dodgy).
As a concession, maybe those streamed for area or London airports should be on a higher wage to start with?! because of the extra time to validation and the higher banding of those units.
£10k is not a good wage for a career change, but it is clear from this offer that NATS don't really care about attracting that type of applicant anymore.
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As a concession, maybe those streamed for area or London airports should be on a higher wage to start with?! because of the extra time to validation and the higher banding of those units.
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VectorLine
Your opening paragraph makes good sense. It is unfortunate that such a lesson has taken so long to learn.
I appreciate that the old ways of filling supervisory positions by a time-in-job formula was probably out-dated, but it was replaced by a management selection process that was/is alien to the operational coalface worker; however it favoured the Graduate entrant who not only expected 40-year job security but also that he/she would only control traffic for 5 or 6 years [7 to 8 at the outside] before progressing on the career ladder.
What resulted is an organisation so top-heavy that the severe shortage of operational controllers is hampering the ability to cope with traffic growth.
This can to some extent be camouflaged by the 24/7 nature of the job, because the abnormally large operational workforce associated with it tends to smokesreen the manager/worker ratio.
Of course with several thousand applicants for each intake there is no need to offer more than £10k, the shrinkage in applications may streamline and expedite the selection/training process.
I appreciate that the old ways of filling supervisory positions by a time-in-job formula was probably out-dated, but it was replaced by a management selection process that was/is alien to the operational coalface worker; however it favoured the Graduate entrant who not only expected 40-year job security but also that he/she would only control traffic for 5 or 6 years [7 to 8 at the outside] before progressing on the career ladder.
What resulted is an organisation so top-heavy that the severe shortage of operational controllers is hampering the ability to cope with traffic growth.
This can to some extent be camouflaged by the 24/7 nature of the job, because the abnormally large operational workforce associated with it tends to smokesreen the manager/worker ratio.
Of course with several thousand applicants for each intake there is no need to offer more than £10k, the shrinkage in applications may streamline and expedite the selection/training process.
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Originally Posted by 055166k
Your opening paragraph makes good sense. It is unfortunate that such a lesson has taken so long to learn.
I appreciate that the old ways of filling supervisory positions by a time-in-job formula was probably out-dated, but it was replaced by a management selection process that was/is alien to the operational coalface worker; however it favoured the Graduate entrant who not only expected 40-year job security but also that he/she would only control traffic for 5 or 6 years [7 to 8 at the outside] before progressing on the career ladder.
What resulted is an organisation so top-heavy that the severe shortage of operational controllers is hampering the ability to cope with traffic growth.
This can to some extent be camouflaged by the 24/7 nature of the job, because the abnormally large operational workforce associated with it tends to smokesreen the manager/worker ratio.
Of course with several thousand applicants for each intake there is no need to offer more than £10k, the shrinkage in applications may streamline and expedite the selection/training process.
I appreciate that the old ways of filling supervisory positions by a time-in-job formula was probably out-dated, but it was replaced by a management selection process that was/is alien to the operational coalface worker; however it favoured the Graduate entrant who not only expected 40-year job security but also that he/she would only control traffic for 5 or 6 years [7 to 8 at the outside] before progressing on the career ladder.
What resulted is an organisation so top-heavy that the severe shortage of operational controllers is hampering the ability to cope with traffic growth.
This can to some extent be camouflaged by the 24/7 nature of the job, because the abnormally large operational workforce associated with it tends to smokesreen the manager/worker ratio.
Of course with several thousand applicants for each intake there is no need to offer more than £10k, the shrinkage in applications may streamline and expedite the selection/training process.
It is also a bit less than some school leaver posts in my home area, which will discourage the less ambitious people from applying
those people with a real interest in the job will wish to apply, and with the reatively short time at the college 10k will not put these people off - nor will it put off poeple with ambition. What will be lacking is applicants with experience of self learning - A-levels are still pretty much spoon fed and require little learning and reading outside of the classroom. The same cannot be said of ATC. there is also a steep learning curve - especially on the new courses which has resulted in a high failure rate.
There is the danger of recruiting a lot of youngsters wh will see the time in bournemoth as an excuse to party and lounge on hte beach in stead of doing the required studying - ie a guaranteed income while partying.
As for the V scale compensating those at LTCC or SWanwick etc where the cost of living is higher and time to calidate is longer I dont see it as doing this. Firstly the V scale is paid on validation - which means those training at LTCC will on average be on the 15,000/16,000 salary longer than those going to airports who validate quicker.
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As for the V scale compensating those at LTCC or SWanwick etc where the cost of living is higher and time to calidate is longer I dont see it as doing this. Firstly the V scale is paid on validation - which means those training at LTCC will on average be on the 15,000/16,000 salary longer than those going to airports who validate quicker.
On the other hand, you could say that by extrapolating the "low pay to start for bigger future financial reward" arguement, those at regional airports should be paid full scale when they validate as their salary scales are ultimately lower than their peers at the bigger units.
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Originally Posted by NudgingSteel
sorry, can't let that one pass....
vulnerable workers? get out into the real world, talk about:
ATCO salaries...
allowances...
hours you work and the time off you get...
job security of a valid ATCO...
... to people having to work long hours to feed a family on genuinely low wages in any other employment sector, and ask them how vulnerable they think you are!
vulnerable workers? get out into the real world, talk about:
ATCO salaries...
allowances...
hours you work and the time off you get...
job security of a valid ATCO...
... to people having to work long hours to feed a family on genuinely low wages in any other employment sector, and ask them how vulnerable they think you are!
From your post it would appear that you already feel salaries/job security/time off etc are at least satisfactory compared with other professions. So if you are already doing so well, do you really need that extra few percent so badly? The crucial point being which group of your colleagues will you be screwing in 3 years time to get a few percent more than if the pay deal was to be applied fairly across the board & underpinned by a minimum amount for those for whom an extra 3% is nowhere near the kind of sum those higher up the scale receive.
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Originally Posted by Mad As A Mad Thing
This isn't about how ATCO's are paid or job security relative to other professions. This is about whether you as an individual can justify screwing colleagues at the bottom of the ladder to fund your own payrise.
From your post it would appear that you already feel salaries/job security/time off etc are at least satisfactory compared with other professions. So if you are already doing so well, do you really need that extra few percent so badly? The crucial point being which group of your colleagues will you be screwing in 3 years time to get a few percent more than if the pay deal was to be applied fairly across the board & underpinned by a minimum amount for those for whom an extra 3% is nowhere near the kind of sum those higher up the scale receive.
From your post it would appear that you already feel salaries/job security/time off etc are at least satisfactory compared with other professions. So if you are already doing so well, do you really need that extra few percent so badly? The crucial point being which group of your colleagues will you be screwing in 3 years time to get a few percent more than if the pay deal was to be applied fairly across the board & underpinned by a minimum amount for those for whom an extra 3% is nowhere near the kind of sum those higher up the scale receive.
I understand that NATS was/is spending around £50m on training with a failure rate around 30%. it is clear that this can't be allowed to continue either financially or with that failure rate. What this deal does is attempt to redistribute some of that money into the payscales for those that ACTUALLY VALIDATE and become a useful and productive ATCO. Those people then progress quicker up a scale to a higher maximum where they will spend the majority of their career. I for one can't see the problem with that as either an objective or indeed as a result.
This really is a no-lose situation because if the supply of applicants dries up NATS will have no choice than to increase the starting salary again and the savings produced now will already be in the pay scales.
I think it's called short term pain for a long term gain. 4 years in the job will mean nearly £50k/year on this deal at a Band 5. Not bad for what could well be less than 2 years as a trainee.
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Not strictly linked to the pay deal but if NATS are so concerned with cutting salary costs for new recruits I find it absurd that an ATCO (T&D) can fail at one unit, be chopped and shifted to a "quieter" one whereupon sucessful validation is, as I understand it, still rewarded backdated ATCO pay from 2 years after leaving the college, however long training takes and however much money it is (recently well over 10k I've been led to believe!). If that isn't a waste of money then I don't know what is!?!
just an opinion.
just an opinion.
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Bandbox, we've recently heard about one of our trainees who didn't make it on DTY on safety grounds, who went to manchester and recently validated, clearing 17K with the backdated pay!
How can that be right?
People are being rewarded for failure. The sooner this ends the better!
How can that be right?
People are being rewarded for failure. The sooner this ends the better!
I say there boy
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People are being rewarded for failure. The sooner this ends the better!
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2 answers to this off shoot of the thread
a) some people were not necessarily given the best chance/ opportunity to validate at some units, be that mentors, too few hours etc, some admittedly may have just been pants. Some were "held" for years during the NERC opening, did the wrong AVC for the sector, the list goes on.
with the hours and experience mounting up, it is a lot more likely they will validate at their next unit. And the back pay was a hidden bonus, nobody would want to go thru the hell of training reviews, will i get reposted, or am i off to stack shelves in tesco. And if asked they would have glady settled for a validation, a jb, and no backpay, nobody asks though!
b) If NATS are going to pay it, then the ATCOs aren't exactly gonna say , you know what, I don't want it, put it towards your cost saving.
It's always good for the Band 4/ Band 5 banter too!
And PS, beware the chinese whispers of back pay, I heard a trainee at Manchester got so much back pay he just ordered a bugatti.
a) some people were not necessarily given the best chance/ opportunity to validate at some units, be that mentors, too few hours etc, some admittedly may have just been pants. Some were "held" for years during the NERC opening, did the wrong AVC for the sector, the list goes on.
with the hours and experience mounting up, it is a lot more likely they will validate at their next unit. And the back pay was a hidden bonus, nobody would want to go thru the hell of training reviews, will i get reposted, or am i off to stack shelves in tesco. And if asked they would have glady settled for a validation, a jb, and no backpay, nobody asks though!
b) If NATS are going to pay it, then the ATCOs aren't exactly gonna say , you know what, I don't want it, put it towards your cost saving.
It's always good for the Band 4/ Band 5 banter too!
And PS, beware the chinese whispers of back pay, I heard a trainee at Manchester got so much back pay he just ordered a bugatti.
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I agree that 10k is a somewhat meagre salary for the newly initiated, but there are still plenty of applicants because the rewards are clear and gauranteed if you can make the cut. In terms of this scheme not attracting the right applicant my opinion is that this is slightly off the mark as it would bring people in that are instilled with the dedecation and determination needed to make a contribution. Also if it does only appeal to the youngsters then it is fact that they are more pliable and can be moulded easier into a successful ACTO than someone older and set in their ways.
Im sure your management cant justify flinging thousands at someone just to end up with no return, you have to recognise that as good business scense.
How many of yous have had a whip-round for the newbies? not many me thinks.
Im sure your management cant justify flinging thousands at someone just to end up with no return, you have to recognise that as good business scense.
How many of yous have had a whip-round for the newbies? not many me thinks.
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Originally Posted by incise
I agree that 10k is a somewhat meagre salary for the newly initiated, but there are still plenty of applicants because the rewards are clear and gauranteed if you can make the cut. In terms of this scheme not attracting the right applicant my opinion is that this is slightly off the mark as it would bring people in that are instilled with the dedecation and determination needed to make a contribution. Also if it does only appeal to the youngsters then it is fact that they are more pliable and can be moulded easier into a successful ACTO than someone older and set in their ways.
Im sure your management cant justify flinging thousands at someone just to end up with no return, you have to recognise that as good business scense.
How many of yous have had a whip-round for the newbies? not many me thinks.
Im sure your management cant justify flinging thousands at someone just to end up with no return, you have to recognise that as good business scense.
How many of yous have had a whip-round for the newbies? not many me thinks.
May I suggest that it would actively discourage 'older' people from applying. By older, I mean those who already have a career and are looking to change. They may, of course, still be 'instilled with the dedication and determination....' but may have wife/husband/kids/mortgage and 10k a year will not be financially viable.
Regarding a 'whip round', well that's not really necessary is it? Those who feel that strongly about it will surely have voted no
