Aus Expats - would you go home (with poll)
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This little fishy is not heading home any time soon (to work at least!!) Happy where I am and life just keeps getting rosier. Just started this thread to see who was out there and what they thought of what was happening in the world of Aus ATC. It seems unanimous - AsA has lost the plot when it comes to staffing!!!
Last edited by Barra Tuesday; 20th Sep 2005 at 04:43.
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Barra
I totally agree with you, and as having worked for ASA for 20 + years (yes and trying to get back - with no luck) and keeping in contact with those still there, they are actually worse than what they were, and they have become more anal than what they were.
There is no future with ASA or Serco/ Navcanada/ATNS or any other ATS provider for that matter, and the sooner more people realised this the better.
Yes the union is way out of its league here and ASA has got the better of them. I see this from the gradual eating away of conditions at each EBA.
IT will come back to bite ASA on the arse, as one day there will be a major incident/mid air and then we will see some major heads roll, a senate inquiry, the loss of a minister or two, CEO's some directors (incl Kevin Gale - what a bloody joke he is.... he has incident after incident when he was at Coffs landing acft over the top of other acft on the runway waiting to takeoff.. so they cancel his licence and put him on the board of directors... if only the board knew they would demand his resignation) this shows how laughable the whole ASA organisation has become, an accident waiting to happen.
All for now.
TTFN
I totally agree with you, and as having worked for ASA for 20 + years (yes and trying to get back - with no luck) and keeping in contact with those still there, they are actually worse than what they were, and they have become more anal than what they were.
There is no future with ASA or Serco/ Navcanada/ATNS or any other ATS provider for that matter, and the sooner more people realised this the better.
Yes the union is way out of its league here and ASA has got the better of them. I see this from the gradual eating away of conditions at each EBA.
IT will come back to bite ASA on the arse, as one day there will be a major incident/mid air and then we will see some major heads roll, a senate inquiry, the loss of a minister or two, CEO's some directors (incl Kevin Gale - what a bloody joke he is.... he has incident after incident when he was at Coffs landing acft over the top of other acft on the runway waiting to takeoff.. so they cancel his licence and put him on the board of directors... if only the board knew they would demand his resignation) this shows how laughable the whole ASA organisation has become, an accident waiting to happen.
All for now.
TTFN
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U/S
There we go then. As you can see I have been out of Oz for a while.
Thank goodness they got rid of Gale the man (if you can call him that) was a bloody joke!
Who then is the latest ASA puppet on the board?
I am working way west of your location at this point, but the defence jobs look interesting at this point.
TTFN
There we go then. As you can see I have been out of Oz for a while.
Thank goodness they got rid of Gale the man (if you can call him that) was a bloody joke!Who then is the latest ASA puppet on the board?
I am working way west of your location at this point, but the defence jobs look interesting at this point.
TTFN
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I can smell the sour grapes.
Funny, there seem to be a few controllers in Brissie and Melbourne who have worked overseas. That is, gone and come back. Why is it that they've managed to do this?
Barra, after reading of the troubles others have with the ME, Serco, NATS, NavCanada, it seems I'd rather stay in Oz. The surf is certainly better, right Tobzalp.
I enjoy my job, I have good working conditions, and yes, the current certified agreement negotiations are difficult. But as a union, civilair has a common resolve. We are taking this fight to management, and I think something good will come of it.
Tweety, you haven't been around for a while, so maybe things have changed just a little since you left. In fact, they may have gotten better since you left.
Ciao
Funny, there seem to be a few controllers in Brissie and Melbourne who have worked overseas. That is, gone and come back. Why is it that they've managed to do this?
Barra, after reading of the troubles others have with the ME, Serco, NATS, NavCanada, it seems I'd rather stay in Oz. The surf is certainly better, right Tobzalp.
I enjoy my job, I have good working conditions, and yes, the current certified agreement negotiations are difficult. But as a union, civilair has a common resolve. We are taking this fight to management, and I think something good will come of it.
Tweety, you haven't been around for a while, so maybe things have changed just a little since you left. In fact, they may have gotten better since you left.
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No sour grapes here.
I for one hope the guys in Oz get a good deal in the next certified agreement. Everyone leaves, or doesn't leave for different reasons. If you are happy doing what you are doing DP, good for you. I think what the guys here are getting at is, that if ASA is so short, then they should pay the returning Expat Aussies, commensurate to their experience, including that experience they have gained overseas.
At the moment, when you come back they don't seem to want to know what you have been doing overseas. They don't want to maybe gain from what we have learnt, and be better for the skills we can bring into the organisation. This isn't about a "mine's bigger than yours" argument, but the fact is, that a lot of us, have been working some very busy traffic around the world, and as such have picked up skills, that I personally would never have got sitting on the sectors I was on in Melbourne.
So as I said no sour grapes, just a bit perplexed that there is a source of controllers out there, that for the right offer, ie. the right re-entry increment, and the right sectors (I mean what sense does it make to send a guy who has just spent a couple of years vectoring his arse off into Dubai, to Brisbane Oceanic?????), would return and help ease the shortage in Oz, for a lot less money than it will cost to train guys from scratch.
At the moment, when you come back they don't seem to want to know what you have been doing overseas. They don't want to maybe gain from what we have learnt, and be better for the skills we can bring into the organisation. This isn't about a "mine's bigger than yours" argument, but the fact is, that a lot of us, have been working some very busy traffic around the world, and as such have picked up skills, that I personally would never have got sitting on the sectors I was on in Melbourne.
So as I said no sour grapes, just a bit perplexed that there is a source of controllers out there, that for the right offer, ie. the right re-entry increment, and the right sectors (I mean what sense does it make to send a guy who has just spent a couple of years vectoring his arse off into Dubai, to Brisbane Oceanic?????), would return and help ease the shortage in Oz, for a lot less money than it will cost to train guys from scratch.
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Sadly .. I probably agree with ASA 
Someone leaves my company (for better or worse), they go off to foreign or national pastures and spend some years earning much more than me and better benefits (potentially). Then for whatever reason they come back and expect the company which employ us both to pay us the same salary ... yeah right.
Loyalty and seniority still has a price I hope. Mercenaries who go off in search of wilder dreams and pay get no less respect for doing so, but expecting to come back on the same salary and seniority as others of their generation who stuck with it ?? **** off.
Someone leaves my company (for better or worse), they go off to foreign or national pastures and spend some years earning much more than me and better benefits (potentially). Then for whatever reason they come back and expect the company which employ us both to pay us the same salary ... yeah right.
Loyalty and seniority still has a price I hope. Mercenaries who go off in search of wilder dreams and pay get no less respect for doing so, but expecting to come back on the same salary and seniority as others of their generation who stuck with it ?? **** off.
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Ok well PPruneRadar, we will have to agree to disagree.
Fact 1. ASA is short of staff. So short they are closing sectors on a regular basis.
Fact 2. The training of Ab-Initios costs in the vicinity of $300,000 Australian, and at the end of that they are lucky to get half of the trainees rated. And forgetting the cost, the number of trainees is not enough to cover the shortfall that already exists, coupled with the retirements that are impending.
Fact 3. The expats aren't begging for a job back. ATC'ers are more in demand in expat ATC job markets now than ever before. So what is being said is that it makes good business sense to recognise the experience these guys have, and pay them accordingly. If they don't want to do that, fine, they continue to run short, and we continue to live and work O/S.
You call us mercenaries. We have gone and worked overseas for a million different reasons, and not always money. I made more money in Australia, even when taking into account tax, but I wanted to get out because the ATC was more interesting here than it was back home. Due to that I have gained skills I wouldn't have in Australia. When the expats return they bring with them that experience, and those skills, and the benifactor is the ATC company.
My personal opinion is that if ATC wasn't such a closed market the world over and companies actually encouraged controllers to work on term transfers in other countries, ATC would be the better for it. Most other industries benefit from the cross pollination of ideas and techniques but it seems that ATC'ers always feel that their way and the way their country does it is the best.
Anyway I guess you aren't going to agree, since you work in a country that doesn't even recognise a controllers license from another country, so I better "**** off".
Fa
Fact 1. ASA is short of staff. So short they are closing sectors on a regular basis.
Fact 2. The training of Ab-Initios costs in the vicinity of $300,000 Australian, and at the end of that they are lucky to get half of the trainees rated. And forgetting the cost, the number of trainees is not enough to cover the shortfall that already exists, coupled with the retirements that are impending.
Fact 3. The expats aren't begging for a job back. ATC'ers are more in demand in expat ATC job markets now than ever before. So what is being said is that it makes good business sense to recognise the experience these guys have, and pay them accordingly. If they don't want to do that, fine, they continue to run short, and we continue to live and work O/S.
You call us mercenaries. We have gone and worked overseas for a million different reasons, and not always money. I made more money in Australia, even when taking into account tax, but I wanted to get out because the ATC was more interesting here than it was back home. Due to that I have gained skills I wouldn't have in Australia. When the expats return they bring with them that experience, and those skills, and the benifactor is the ATC company.
My personal opinion is that if ATC wasn't such a closed market the world over and companies actually encouraged controllers to work on term transfers in other countries, ATC would be the better for it. Most other industries benefit from the cross pollination of ideas and techniques but it seems that ATC'ers always feel that their way and the way their country does it is the best.
Anyway I guess you aren't going to agree, since you work in a country that doesn't even recognise a controllers license from another country, so I better "**** off".
Fa
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I didn't intend this post to go the way that it is - I reiterate what I said earlier in that the intent was to see who was out there and who would go home for the right package - whatever the right package might be for that individual. Other countries do it (pay experienced controllers well) so why not AsA?? PPrune Radar you really need to get out more 
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True; but I must admit I have never been told to **** Off before; been told lots of times to Faaark Orfff though. Obviously Pprune Radar isn't an Aussie.
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ASA is short of staff. So short they are closing sectors on a regular basis.
end of that they are lucky to get half of the trainees rated.
companies actually encouraged controllers to work on term transfers in other countries, ATC would be the better for it.
I mean what sense does it make to send a guy who has just spent a couple of years vectoring his arse off into Dubai, to Brisbane Oceanic?????),
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DP, ANSA is an ex-'big board' boy.
The mod is entitled to an opinion, but
WTF? When has the 'company' ever shown any loyalty in return? Seniority? Don't know about NATS or Eurocontrol, but when was the last rise-thru-the-ranks Senior Manager at AsA? They are all "contract mercenaries" too (often with american accents).
Is it still 1955 where you are? Sticking with it? Maybe you'll just have to accept that sometimes those with a bit of get-up-and-go, get up and go.
Perhaps if the international "market" for ATC labour was a bit more open, controllers in oz might see a decent payrise? AsA wouldn't be attempting to stifle wages growth, would they? That would be anti-competitive, and fly in the face of their 'business' philosphies. Especially as demand for controllers world-wide rises.
The mod is entitled to an opinion, but
Loyalty and seniority still has a price I hope.
but expecting to come back on the same salary and seniority as others of their generation who stuck with it ?? **** off.
Perhaps if the international "market" for ATC labour was a bit more open, controllers in oz might see a decent payrise? AsA wouldn't be attempting to stifle wages growth, would they? That would be anti-competitive, and fly in the face of their 'business' philosphies.
Especially as demand for controllers world-wide rises.
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DP, ANSA is an ex-'big board' boy.
And for those that worked the Perth sectors before they transitioned to Brissie. Kimberley sector handles significantly more traffic than pre-TAAATS. Carpentaria is a sh!t fight at 3 am in the morning.
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Sometimes you have to throw a big pebble in the pool to catch the fish 
I don't have any objection with people being paid the market rate, but why should they step right back in to career progression and seniority as though they had never even left ??
I don't have any objection with people being paid the market rate, but why should they step right back in to career progression and seniority as though they had never even left ??
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I tend to agree with PPrune Radar on this issue.
As one with an interest in the state of play, I remember how p!ssed off I was that guys that had made use of the training that AsA had provided, bu66ered off overseas then came back ahead of us all that had stayed behind.
There are several guys that did recently go back, one was from UAE, you should all know him and he was given Oceanic I think.
Now he had also done radar in Oz before leaving and all the UAE redar stuff too, but he wasn\'t unrealistic enough to moan about where he was put. I mean, the company are under no obligation to reemply you.
If they have a shortage on TOPS or Ocean and you want a job, the choice is pretty clear.
Are you sure that you are not teenagers? Seem to want the cake and to eat it to!
Adults learn that you can\'t always get what you want immediatley, remember that there is always a Team Leaders (or whatever they are called these days) job going and that WILL take into account you overseas experience. All you have to do is wait til you are entitled to apply.
For those that think I am a management troll...think again, I did the old Perth sectors, then TOPS, then other spots, now in the sandpit.
I just don\'t have the "they owe me a living" ideology.
ps you guys aren\'t the same crowd that insisted that the company pays your tertiary fees are you?
If you are that would explain a lot
As one with an interest in the state of play, I remember how p!ssed off I was that guys that had made use of the training that AsA had provided, bu66ered off overseas then came back ahead of us all that had stayed behind.
There are several guys that did recently go back, one was from UAE, you should all know him and he was given Oceanic I think.
Now he had also done radar in Oz before leaving and all the UAE redar stuff too, but he wasn\'t unrealistic enough to moan about where he was put. I mean, the company are under no obligation to reemply you.
If they have a shortage on TOPS or Ocean and you want a job, the choice is pretty clear.
Are you sure that you are not teenagers? Seem to want the cake and to eat it to!
Adults learn that you can\'t always get what you want immediatley, remember that there is always a Team Leaders (or whatever they are called these days) job going and that WILL take into account you overseas experience. All you have to do is wait til you are entitled to apply.
For those that think I am a management troll...think again, I did the old Perth sectors, then TOPS, then other spots, now in the sandpit.
I just don\'t have the "they owe me a living" ideology.
ps you guys aren\'t the same crowd that insisted that the company pays your tertiary fees are you?
If you are that would explain a lot
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Well no big boards anymore in Oz. It's all TAAATS, and that's a whole new ball game
There does seem to be some very big chips on shoulders, here. I, for one, certainly don't think that I'm "owed" anything by AsA.
but he wasn\'t unrealistic enough to moan about where he was put
Furthermore, I think ANSA's point was that once AsA does re-hire someone, it's really a "bum-on-seat" mentality if you don't tap that persons experience. They'll put ab-initio's on radar sectors, and send the experienced radar guy to TOPS. So, whilst they are certainly entitled to hire people and put them where they are short, it's not like they only hire 1 guy a year. Efficient use of resources? Not exactly an AsA strong point.
bu66ered off overseas then came back ahead of us all that had stayed behind
DP
Carpentaria is a sh!t fight at 3 am in the morning
PP Radar
step right back in to career progression and seniority as though they had never even left
Slagging those who left doesn't help. AsA not utilising a ready source of labour is a means of making people think twice about leaving, and hence keeping a lid on your salary. See it for what it is. If people were able to come and go more freely, more would go. If there were genuinely no jobs, fair enough. Doesn't seem to gel with what you and others are saying on other threads.
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you did well to start this thread, congrtulations.
As for DP well sorry son, no sour grapes! However, yes I would consider coming back to ASA under the right conditions, but at the moment the conditions aren't right.
there are some Scandanavian contries that actually encourage their controllers to go O/S for experience and welcome them back with open arms and pockets and usually stick them back at the level they were at or above as happened in a couple of cases I know of. Why , because they knew they couldn't ever get that type of experience in their own country and this was a much cheaper way of getting that and having happier more highly trained staff who would most likely stay put. And guess what that is exactly what has happened.
I agree with Ferris's last post and in fact most of his rhetoric.
I know a controller who spent 18 years with ASA who has worked all the old sydney sectors incl the old busy Sy Arr N & S Bn arr S CG app, UAE area, one of The busuiest Toronto sectors (if not oneof the busiest in North America) incl approach and working during the 9/11 terrorist attack, and with all that experience still cant get a job back with ASA, and this has happened to numerous controllers with similiar stories time and time again over the last few years. This experience should not only be recognised but also encouraged (as per the scandanavian experience) by ASA, but until there is a major frontal labotomy done on the ASA upper and mid management, then a CV full of projects and other BS with only a little controlling will fit the bill for them. When will they learn.
There is currently a shortage of area controllers (in fact controllers in general) worldwide and even more so of controllers with a full book of ratings - a rarity these days, du e to streaming. And yes this does have ASA worried and why Ferris is correct in saying that is why they do not encourage the rehire of returning controllers for fear that most will flee and a way of keeping a lid on wages... you must remember the word [B]" BONUS" this is all the managers think about...stuff the troops.
DP despite what you think, conditions have been eroded quite substantially over the last 10 years, so I take it you have only been there a dog watch and only in Brisbane, if not let me knowif the contrary.
Finally to the moderator PPrune radar, I don't take kindly being told to "**** off" by anyone especially the moderator who is supposed to keep a lid on this sort of thing, top effort on you. Dont get stroppy at the likes of us who have given the expat thing a go because maybe you lacked the balls to take a shot at it yourself. so to you on behalf of the rest of the forum, I say "**** off". If you're happy with your lot and not prepared to take that chance great, but dont begrudge us the right or the chance and go and come back and possibly be recognised for the gaining of experience in ATC skills and the life experience gained.
TTFN
you did well to start this thread, congrtulations.
As for DP well sorry son, no sour grapes! However, yes I would consider coming back to ASA under the right conditions, but at the moment the conditions aren't right.
there are some Scandanavian contries that actually encourage their controllers to go O/S for experience and welcome them back with open arms and pockets and usually stick them back at the level they were at or above as happened in a couple of cases I know of. Why , because they knew they couldn't ever get that type of experience in their own country and this was a much cheaper way of getting that and having happier more highly trained staff who would most likely stay put. And guess what that is exactly what has happened.
I agree with Ferris's last post and in fact most of his rhetoric.
I know a controller who spent 18 years with ASA who has worked all the old sydney sectors incl the old busy Sy Arr N & S Bn arr S CG app, UAE area, one of The busuiest Toronto sectors (if not oneof the busiest in North America) incl approach and working during the 9/11 terrorist attack, and with all that experience still cant get a job back with ASA, and this has happened to numerous controllers with similiar stories time and time again over the last few years. This experience should not only be recognised but also encouraged (as per the scandanavian experience) by ASA, but until there is a major frontal labotomy done on the ASA upper and mid management, then a CV full of projects and other BS with only a little controlling will fit the bill for them. When will they learn.
There is currently a shortage of area controllers (in fact controllers in general) worldwide and even more so of controllers with a full book of ratings - a rarity these days, du e to streaming. And yes this does have ASA worried and why Ferris is correct in saying that is why they do not encourage the rehire of returning controllers for fear that most will flee and a way of keeping a lid on wages... you must remember the word [B]" BONUS" this is all the managers think about...stuff the troops.
DP despite what you think, conditions have been eroded quite substantially over the last 10 years, so I take it you have only been there a dog watch and only in Brisbane, if not let me knowif the contrary.
Finally to the moderator PPrune radar, I don't take kindly being told to "**** off" by anyone especially the moderator who is supposed to keep a lid on this sort of thing, top effort on you. Dont get stroppy at the likes of us who have given the expat thing a go because maybe you lacked the balls to take a shot at it yourself. so to you on behalf of the rest of the forum, I say "**** off". If you're happy with your lot and not prepared to take that chance great, but dont begrudge us the right or the chance and go and come back and possibly be recognised for the gaining of experience in ATC skills and the life experience gained.
TTFN
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Mt. Isa, Williamtown, Sydney, Archerfield, Brisbane (SAR, Fraser, Tops, Byron). 22+ years and still loving it and working in Oz.
Brent is back on Ocean and he's quite happy. But then again, he's that sort of guy.
BTW, in recent meetingswith ATC in Brisbane, Greg Russell, our new CEO, asked for short and medium term solutions for ATC staffing. I mentioned an experienced ATC recruitment program as a solution. Not sure how much of a response it will get.
Brent is back on Ocean and he's quite happy. But then again, he's that sort of guy.
BTW, in recent meetingswith ATC in Brisbane, Greg Russell, our new CEO, asked for short and medium term solutions for ATC staffing. I mentioned an experienced ATC recruitment program as a solution. Not sure how much of a response it will get.