Here it comes: Syria [Archive] - Page 8

Turbine D

15th Mar 2016, 01:41

Putin has read the handwriting on the wall and he doesn't want to get caught up in a war with Turks, Saudis and UAE on one side and Iran and Assad on the other. Assad is far from secure.
There have been indications of new Russian pressure on the Assad government. Days before the cease-fire started, Mr. Assad dismissed it and declared that he was on the road to taking back all of Syria. But Russia’s envoy to the United Nations let it be known publicly that those remarks “do not chime” with Russia’s efforts. He told the Russian business newspaper Kommersant that Syria’s leaders should “take account” of Russia’s military help and follow its lead if they wanted to escape “with their dignity intact.” In other word, time to leave while you can.

Geordie_Expat

15th Mar 2016, 11:32

Or, to put it another way, "do as you are told or we are off".

Lonewolf_50

15th Mar 2016, 17:09

Analysis: Why Putin Picked This Moment to Pull Out of Syria - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/analysis-why-putin-picked-moment-pull-out-syria-n538671)

An interesting analysis of why Putin went in, and why he's leaving. UK based think tank. One of the objectives has been met, which is to replace the Ukraine thing in the news with Russia doing something more positive.

At least 250,000 people have died, but the UN stopped counting in 2014 (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/syria-war-five-years-hunger-horror-heartbreak-n538661).

I guess that the UN no longer believes that Syrian lives matter. So be it.

A_Van

15th Mar 2016, 17:41

I do not think it has any links to Ukraine as a UK (likely sofa-based) think tank tries to present. The whole Ukraine issue is a piece of cake for various conspiracy fans that often loose the ground in their paranoid dreams.

IMHO, Carnegie Moscow Center could provide a better picture and analysis. At least it is funded by Rockefeller, Ford and some other foundations plus supervised by CIA, and those guys do not give money to idiots ;)

However, it is indeed possible to artificially link Ukraine to these Russian activities just by giving an order to Kiev to start shelling the separatist-controlled regions once again. The latter, obviously, will reply and then the propaganda will, as usual, keep silence about the regime shells and only take note of those coming from separ's and adding that the "Russian killing machine woke up". Hope it will not happen.

Lonewolf_50

15th Mar 2016, 19:54

I do not think it has any links to Ukraine as a UK (likely sofa-based) think tank tries to present. The whole Ukraine issue is a piece of cake for various conspiracy fans that often loose the ground in their paranoid dreams. Fair enough, Russia has enough interests in the Mid East to want to take action when those interests are threatened.

SkyHawk-N

17th Mar 2016, 12:00

I see that there are a number of interesting videos filmed at Hmeymim Air Base showing KA-52 Alligator (look in the background of the first few seconds of this video)

e7oD5sCulf4

and Mi-28 Havoc (see 15 second mark)

srra3IKtEg8

Haven't seen much reported of their use in Syria so far.

A_Van

17th Mar 2016, 12:27

BTW, for those interested in details, it was emphasized along with the "main announcement" that not all the aircraft will be returned back to Russia. A certain minimum will remain. Somewhat a sqdrn of attack aircraft and some fighters to support them. The same for some helicopters. And of course S-400 and Pantzyr anti-aircraft ground systems will remain as well. It was also published in the (Russian) official press that if necessary it will be a matter of hours to return.
Just to avoid being blamed in inconsistency....

Hangarshuffle

29th Mar 2016, 19:18

Had to scroll all the way back into the third tier to find this thread again- probably a fair indication of how highly it rates on the current agenda.12 days will have passed since the last entry to mine. And that is entirely indicative of the level of interest in this air war, being carried out by real RAF aircrew under real threat. Amazing. It was front page news for days on end a few short weeks ago. Now it doesn't even rate on Prune. Chipmunks, Air cadets not in gliders and long forgotten piss ups rate far higher....Why is this?
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/update-air-strikes-against-daesh
The latest Govt. spin about it above in a linky. Thursday 17th of March the RAF were carrying out multiple attacks in Northern Iraq in what must have been a bit of a party for some, and yet it features absolutely nowhere on here (Prune).
Amazed still and a little dismayed. Not saying there should be a daily upbriefing on all combat carried out in our names, it just worries me that service actions, combat missions and our own peoples lives are now regarded in such a dismally low level of attention or scrutiny or give a ****.

pr00ne

29th Mar 2016, 19:27

hangarshuffle,

What on earth makes you think that a lack of posting on a rumour site indicates
"a dismally low level of attention or scrutiny?"

It's a rumour web site.

Get over yourself.

melmothtw

29th Mar 2016, 20:31

That it took you 12 days to type your post Hangarshuffle dismays me. At least make it look like you care...

chopper2004

30th Mar 2016, 14:26

Yesterday DoD and EUCOM put out a press release saying all dependents to leave Turkey asap

Families ordered to leave Turkey are unlikely to return - Europe - Stripes (http://www.stripes.com/news/europe/families-ordered-to-leave-turkey-are-unlikely-to-return-1.401735)

KAISERSLAUTERN, Germany — The U.S. military is arranging accommodations for hundreds of dependents of Defense Department personnel ordered to leave Turkey because of security fears, a departure that most likely will be permanent.
“Families are being briefed on all their options,” said Julie Weckerlein, a spokeswoman for U.S. European Command.
Those options include returning to one’s home of record in the States or moving to a follow-on assignment if there is one, she said. Families with school-age children will also likely be able to stay at Ramstein Air Base temporarily so their kids can finish out the school year, Air Force officials at Ramstein said.
In all scenarios, the military is paying expenses such as transportation and lodging for those families.
Upon arriving at their destination, families will be greeted by a team that will address housing, medical, financial and educational needs, Weckerlein said.
The mandatory departure, ordered Tuesday by the State and Defense departments, affects about 670 dependents of military and civilian personnel at Incirlik and those at smaller bases in Izmir and Mugla. The families of U.S. diplomats in the same areas are also ordered to depart.
No specific threat triggered the dramatic move to pull most dependents out of Turkey, the Pentagon said Tuesday.
“This was a decision made out of an abundance of caution, given the overall picture, the security threats that … we looked at in the region,” Defense Department spokesman Peter Cook said.
Weckerlein added that “they’ve been considering this for some time.”
“While realizing how disruptive this is for our families,” she said, “the top priority is their safety, security and well-being.”
Cook said the decision was also made at the request of EUCOM commander Gen. Philip Breedlove.
“This decision allows for the deliberate safe return of family members from these areas due to continued security concerns in the region,” Cook said at a Pentagon briefing. “It in no way signifies a permanent decision to end accompanied tours at these facilities and is specifically intended to mitigate the risk to DOD elements and personnel, including family.”
The military is reviewing the status of Incirlik and other installations in Turkey as a family destination, officials said. It’s not known when or if families might be able to return to the affected installations.
“They’re not going to be gone for three months and return,” Weckerlein said. “At this time, dependents won’t be in Turkey. There is no timeline of a return.”
The types of tours at these installations — unaccompanied versus accompanied — as well as tour lengths are currently under review, she said.
How long personnel whose families have left Turkey might remain there is also being reviewed, Weckerlein said. If, for example, an airmen is on a three-year accompanied tour without family, that tour length may be adjusted, she said.
For now, servicemembers will continue to reside in installation housing as long as they’re there, she said.
Uncertainty about the nature of future tours to the base comes as military operations at Incirlik have increased. The base is on the front lines of the fight against the Islamic State group in Syria and Iraq, with U.S. fighters routinely launching from Incirlik on strike missions.
But the security situation in Turkey has been deteriorating in recent months as Turkey has been hit with a series of terrorist attacks, including high-profile bombings in Istanbul, Ankara and southern Turkey. Defense Department personnel and their dependents in Europe are restricted from traveling there.
ke a permi move

Hangarshuffle

26th Apr 2016, 21:55

Might as well post it. We seem so blasé and almost immune to questioning or challenging why we are now almost continually involved in war fighting and conflict.
New types of bombs dropped recently.
ISIS hit by RAF's 2,000lb bunker bombs in new Ministry of Defence video | Daily Mail Online (http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-3559248/RAF-unleash-enhanced-2-000lb-bunker-buster-bombs-time-against-ISIS-tunnel-network-obliterated-Iraq.html)

Our special forces on operations in Syria I think.
Moment western troops use a Javelin anti-tank missile launcher to take out a 'Mad-Max-style' ISIS car bomb | Daily Mail Online (http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-3560202/Moment-western-troops-use-Javelin-anti-tank-missile-launcher-Mad-Max-style-ISIS-car-bomb.html)

The Yemen, Syria, Iran and Libya the UK's armed forces are presently involved with on real operations (and probably half a dozen more countries as well).
There will never be peace again. Conflict is such a waste.

Lonewolf_50

26th Apr 2016, 23:05

New types of bombs dropped recently.
ISIS hit by RAF's 2,000lb bunker bombs in new Ministry of Defence video | Daily Mail Online (http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-3559248/RAF-unleash-enhanced-2-000lb-bunker-buster-bombs-time-against-ISIS-tunnel-network-obliterated-Iraq.html) Nice to see that the expensive kit works. Moment western troops use a Javelin anti-tank missile launcher to take out a 'Mad-Max-style' ISIS car bomb | Daily Mail Online (http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-3560202/Moment-western-troops-use-Javelin-anti-tank-missile-launcher-Mad-Max-style-ISIS-car-bomb.html) How is this bad news? Someone took out a car bomb. Car bombs have a habit of killing a lot of non combatants in that part of the world. Looks like the Brits are doing someone some good there. There will never be peace again. Conflict is such a waste. Is this just a rant/tantrum, or do you have a point? The multipolar world we live in is by its nature more uncertain and dangerous than the more or less bi-polar world you and I grew up in.
Funnily enough, even during that "stable" era there were plenty of wars all over this planet. I guess you just weren't paying attention.
Crying about the multi polar world being dangerous won't change anything.

Europe had three hundred years of serious growing pains to get us to the current era. Thirty years war through the end of WW II. It looks like the Middle East is having the opportunity to go through similar growing pains. Look on the bright side: they may be better off at the far end, just as Europe was/is.

Turbine D

27th Apr 2016, 00:29

Hangershuffle,
There will never be peace again.
Good assessment, see the confirmation below:

The top U.S. intelligence official, James Clapper, warned this week that the Islamic State is operating clandestine cells in Britain, Germany and Italy. At the same time, European security services are in a quandary over how to handle the hundreds, possibly thousands, of young men who have gone to Syria to join ISIS, but come back claiming to disavow the group.

Flap62

27th Apr 2016, 01:46

The US must be expecting trouble and they( Hillbillygirl) wouldnt like a repeat of Benghazi Ambassador killing again just before a presidential election in the US .

Hillbillygirl? Yale educated lawyer, grew up in Chicago, long political career. Sheesh, I've got no time for the woman but for God's sake, if you're going to try to disparage the woman at least try to include a shred of truth!

ORAC

27th Apr 2016, 14:44

/Israel fears IS affiliate on Syrian border holds chemical weapons (http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-fears-is-affiliate-on-syrian-border-holds-chemical-weapons/)

Officials are monitoring the actions of the Yarmouk Martyrs Brigade, believing they may be planning to test the deadly agents

Lonewolf_50

27th Apr 2016, 18:44

Officials are monitoring the actions of the Yarmouk Martyrs Brigade, believing they may be planning to test the deadly agents Lovely offering from our dear friends who follow the religion of peace (or maybe they're just being naughty boys, and are really splitters?)

Turbine D

27th Apr 2016, 22:57

wdew,
The US must be expecting trouble and they( Hillbillygirl) wouldnt like a repeat of Benghazi Ambassador killing again just before a presidential election in the US .
Just re-post your old "Coup" post and all will understand where you are coming from.

ORAC

24th May 2016, 13:15

Syria conflict: IS 'destroyed helicopters' at T4 base - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-36368346)

T28B

24th May 2016, 14:52

Syria conflict: IS 'destroyed helicopters' at T4 base - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-36368346) Looks like a truck park got a mortar attack, hard to figure out how many trucks were caught in it.

Rosevidney1

24th May 2016, 20:36

According to the BBC 20 trucks were destroyed.

T28B

25th May 2016, 00:43

Old rule of war: the enemy gets a vote. True from whatever side you are on.

ORAC

19th Jun 2016, 21:10

Lonewolf_50

20th Jun 2016, 12:59

Would this be considered escalation????

Russian jets strike American-backed forces in Syria, ignoring U.S. warnings - LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-russia-syria-strikes-20160617-snap-story.html) Hard to say, as this fight has more than two sides, and has had since it started. Based on that report, it's a step backward in US/Russian cooperation and deconfliction.

ORAC

10th Jul 2016, 16:28

Isis shoots down Russian helicopter near Palmyra in Syria (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-shoots-down-russian-helicopter-near-palmyra-syria-a7128901.html)

A Russian military helicopter has been shot down by Isis near Palmyra, Syria, killing both pilots. The men have been named as Ryafagat Khabibulin and Yevgeny Dolgin.

The Mi-25 aircraft was reportedly conducting a test flight in the area when it received a request for assistance from the Syrian military, who were under attack from a group of Isis militants to the east of Palmyra. But after running out of ammunition, the helicopter was shot down, Russian news agency Sputnik reported.

A statement from the defence ministry said: “The crew received a request from the Syrian unit's command to strike the advancing fighters. The captain, Ryafagat Khabibulin, made a decision to attack the terrorists. The skillful actions of the Russian crew thwarted the terrorists' advance.

When the helicopter's ammunition was spent and it changed its course to the opposite direction, it was shot down by terrorists from the ground and crashed in an area controlled by the Syrian government army. The helicopter's crew was killed.”.....

W1-AYCd9tJQ

Lonewolf_50

10th Jul 2016, 16:36

Thanks for the video link, ORAC.
Starting at about time 12, it looks to me like a couple of chaff/flare launches were made, then a flash in the vicinity of the Tail Rotor/Tail Rotor Gear Box. Didn't see any missile smoke trail, but perhaps one hit it after the missileboost phase was over. (Chaff/flare launch due to smoke seen?) (Could also have been well aimed fire from a AAA unit, but my guess would be missile). After a few more looks, maybe those flashes were other hits on the helicopter. Grainy video.

Again, it was hard to make out detail, but the nose pitch down moment looks like the tail rotor and its box came off -- a significant CG change happened. (One cannot be sure if any flight controls were damage by what hit the helicopter, or if the crew were also hit with frag...).

The rotating descent further suggests to me loss of the tail rotor, though what other controls may have been damaged is hard to say.

Tough one to try and salvage. .:(

EDIT: after looking at that frame by frame analysis provided in downsizer's link, it appears that my guess at a chaff/flare launch is wrong (right before the tail was hit) and that even though the initial report was that the helicopter was out of ammo, the video seems to show it using forward firing ordnance shortly before being hit in the tail. Looks like I get a C- for video analysis.

AreOut

11th Jul 2016, 11:54

they were flying a syrian version (a bit weaker from russian one), quite irresponsible from russian pilots to jump in the fight like that without any preparation..brave but irresponsible

downsizer

11th Jul 2016, 18:14

Internet analysis suggests it could have been a blue on blue...

https://citeam.org/ruaf-mil-mi-35-hind-e-down/

No idea how plausible the claim is, but I doubt we'll ever know exactly what happened.

Hangarshuffle

15th Jul 2016, 20:33

Coup attempt on in Turkey tonight, which complicates things further in the region.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/15/turkey-coup-attempt-military-gunfire-ankara

Wondering if we will have an entire review of UK involvement in this region after PM May Govt. formed and mot recent terror outrages in fellow involvers France.
?

A_Van

26th Jul 2016, 06:36

The articles as per the links below might be interesting for those blaming the Russian AF in affecting civilians while bombing ISIL and likes.

http://www.infowars.com/retaliation-for-nice-france-bombs-120-civilians-in-syria/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/20/us-airstrike-allegedly-kills-56-civilians-in-northern-syria

The "score" here seems to be higher than in the cases allegedly reported earlier by some "rebels" hurt by the Russian AF.

This once again proves an obvious fact that having good platforms/aircraft and hi-pres munitions is not the only key to success. ISR "component stack" of C4ISR is often more important when dealing with such enemies who could be effectively "fed" with cheap dumbb ombs (especially as modern avionics can help put them down with some 20 m accuracy).

ORAC

1st Aug 2016, 13:47

Of course they were, you always drop supplies into a town you have been besieging and bombing for months, and which have finally cut-off and are starving into submission.

On the other hand of course, they could have supporting ground forces, and been trying to get away from the treatment that could expect if they fell behind enemy lines.......

Russian helicopter shot down over Syria killing five people (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/russian-helicopter-shot-down-over-syria-killing-five-people-1.2741543)

A Russian transport helicopter has been shot down in Syria, killing all five people on board, a Kremlin spokesman said.

The Mi-8 helicopter was shot down in Idlib province while returning to the Russian air base on Syria’s coast after delivering humanitarian goods to the city of Aleppo, the defence ministry said. The helicopter had three crew members and two officers deployed with the Russian centre at the Hemeimeem air base on board.

Dmitry Peskov, spokesman for Russian president Vladimir Putin, said that “from what we know from information provided by the defence ministry, all those who were on the helicopter died”. He said the Russians “died heroically because they tried to move the aircraft away so as to minimise losses on the ground”.........

http://video.news.com.au/v/490092/SYRIA-Crowds-Gather-at-Site-of-Russian-Helicopter-Crash-in-Idlib-August-01

https://www.dailymotion.com/cdn/manifest/video/x4mp9qa.m3u8?auth=1470232233-2562-ww48z29g-afb45ef23ca1e0664592368d345e591a

ORAC

8th Aug 2016, 07:19

Interesting article

Erdogan-Putin: Ready to Settle Scores with the US and Europe (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/raghida-dergham/erdogan-putin-ready-to-se_b_11384488.html)

Ragheda Dergham, Columnist and Senior Diplomatic Correspondent, Al Hayat (translated from Arabic)

ORAC

16th Aug 2016, 07:02

Russia deploys Backfires to Iran. I wonder how permanent the deployment will become.

https://mobile.twitter.com/WarfareWW/status/765248392113037312

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cp6xBgAWEAEmALc.jpg

Heathrow Harry

16th Aug 2016, 15:37

Basing out of Iran as well

Syrian conflict: Russian bombers use Iran base for air strikes - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-37093854)

Russia's defence ministry says it has used a base in western Iran to carry out air strikes in Syria.

Tupolev-22M3 long-range bombers and Sukhoi-34 strike fighters took off from Hamedan on Tuesday, a statement said. Targets were hit in Aleppo, Idlib and Deir al-Zour provinces, it added. Local groups said 27 civilians had died. It is reportedly the first time Russia has struck targets inside Syria from a third country since it began a campaign to prop up Syria's president last year.

Lonewolf_50

16th Aug 2016, 15:56

Is this in support of Syrian ops? Interesting. I looked at a chart and determined that they have to overfly Iraq, or Turkey, to get there. Have the weird turned pro? Has Erdogan decided to let Vlads lads fly over Turkey to get to Syria?

Who owns the airspace over Iraq? Is the Iraqi government cool with the Backfires overflying?
Are the Americans/Western airspace folks in the loop so that deconfliction is available?

We do indeed live in interesting times.

Melchett01

16th Aug 2016, 17:38

Lonewolf,

This isn't new - the RFAF have been doing this sort of routing over Iran/Iraq for months now. I can only assume that the Government of Iraq is content or it wouldn't happen. There's no need to overfly Turkey; fly from whichever home base down to Mozdok, stage there, route over the Caspian and hang a right over Tehran and keep going til you hit Raqqa, Dayr as Zawr or Aleppo. All this does is put the BACKFIRES a little bit closer to action and enables a more timely response.

But when you consider the range and payload of a BACKFIRE and the watch the video on RT of them dropping a dozen or so probable general purpose bombs, such a limited payload given the total capacity, and when set against the firepower they already have in Syria - FROGFOOT, FENCER, FULLBACK, not to mention HIND, HAVOCK and HOKUM attack aviation along with the odd TOS-1 thermobaric systems, dropping a few GP dumb bombs means very little. If I were a betting man, I'd say it was either a forward deployment tied in with the Kavkaz 16 exercise programme or an Info Ops / diplomatic move. Capability wise it adds very little. If it's not a demonstration or messaging piece, then the question to ask is just what exactly is wrong with all the fast air and attack aviation already in country? Where is the deficiency that they can't get the job done?

TEEEJ

16th Aug 2016, 17:54

Lonewolf,

The Iraqi's have been allowing Russian bombers and cruise missiles to overfly from Iranian airspace since 2015. Tu-22M3 Backfires were regularly flown over Iran/Iraq to attack targets in Syria. See following from 2015 showing Iranian fighters escorting Tu-95MS Bear H before they launched their cruise missiles over Iranian airspace into Syria.

VEOowSmxwbY&feature=related

https://theaviationist.com/2015/11/20/iriaf-f-14s-escort-ruaf-tu-95/

"The Russians did notify the coalition as per the memorandum of understanding for safety of flight," said U.S. military spokesman Col. Chris Graver. "They informed us they were coming through and we ensured safety of flight as those bombers passed through the area and toward their target and then when they passed out again."

U.S. cleared Iraqi airspace so Russia could bomb non-ISIS targets in Syria | Washington Examiner (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/u.s.-cleared-iraqi-airspace-so-russia-could-bomb-non-isis-targets-in-syria/article/2599452)

Lonewolf_50

16th Aug 2016, 19:19

The Iraqi's have been allowing Russian bombers and cruise missiles to overfly from Iranian airspace since 2015.
Thanks TEEJ, I recall the cruise missile, not that common of a mission, so it seems that this fits into a standard ops theme at this point.

chopper2004

16th Aug 2016, 21:44

Iranians been supporting Russian air strikes last year such as their F-14A Tomcats escorting their Backfire and Blackjack strategic bombers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRXlz2yB5ok

Its kind of surreal as from the 1980s till a decade ago (the retirement of the USN F-14D )- various carrier based F-14A/D were embarked - shadowing / escorting any of the Soviet Frontal Aviation TU-16/22/95/160 that came close to any battle group so one would see a pair of Tomcats escorting away a curious TU-95 or TU-22

cheers

Heathrow Harry

17th Aug 2016, 11:53

"Capability wise it adds very little. If it's not a demonstration or messaging piece, then the question to ask is just what exactly is wrong"

Indeed - but we all know that equipment is often deployed for other reasons - training, using up old bombs, getting a Campaign Medal.... and there's an election in Russia soon sogood to show the taxpayers what they spend their Roubles on........

ORAC

17th Aug 2016, 18:09

Krauthammer: Russia?s Iran Airbase Signals the Collapse of the Obama Policy | National Review (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/439078/krauthammer-russias-iran-airbase-signals-collapse-obama-policy)

"......But this is an astonishing development. The Iranians are fanatically nationalistic, they never allow anybody to operate out of their territory. For Russia to be operating bombers out of Iranian air bases and going over Iraqi territory that used to be under our control is a demonstration of the total bankruptcy and the collapse of the Obama policy. The whole idea of the Iran deal was a rapprochement between us and Iran. Instead it’s a rapprochement between Iran and Russia. Now that all the sanctions are gone, it’s shipping over the most advanced air defense systems, using Iranian airspace, acting as allies.

This has never happened before. The entire northern part of the Middle East is now under an Iranian–Russian condominium because this administration and its naïveté has allowed Russia and Iran to progress with no resistance and with nothing on our side. You have Hezbollah in the fight as well. This is a very powerful coalition, and the Arabs are defenseless without us and we are nowhere to be seen."

Lonewolf_50

17th Aug 2016, 19:18

Krauthammer: Russia?s Iran Airbase Signals the Collapse of the Obama Policy | National Review (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/439078/krauthammer-russias-iran-airbase-signals-collapse-obama-policy)

============
This has never happened before.
Really? I think it has happened before. I recall the back and forth shifting between US and Russian/Soviet alliances in Ethiopia a few decades back.

Looking back since 9-11, nearly 15 years ago, it is obvious that GW Bush and his team wanted to change the Middle East. They succeeded. Change has occurred. President Obama (champion of the Arab Spring) also wanted to change the Middle East. He too succeeded. Change is taking place.

Its' just not quite the change either of them envisioned as the end state, because there are other players in this game. (That too has happened before ...)

What is it that the Bard said? "The play's the thing." ;)

TEEEJ

17th Aug 2016, 19:46

Lonewolf wrote

Thanks TEEJ, I recall the cruise missile, not that common of a mission, so it seems that this fits into a standard ops theme at this point.

No problem, Lonewolf. It appears that the Russians have not requested cruise missile overflights at the moment.

Baghdad – Iraqi Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi announced on Tuesday that Iraqi airspace has been opened for Russia, but this is made only with some ‘conditions’.

Speaking at a press conference in Baghdad today Abadi said, “We opened our skies to the Russians under some conditions. We have not received an official request from Russia about the passage of any types of rockets across our skies. ”

Iraqi airspace opened for Russia, confirms Abadi - Iraqi News (http://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/iraqi-airspace-opened-for-russia-confirms-abadi/)

Heathrow Harry

18th Aug 2016, 08:59

Not in Iraq's interest to stop ANYONE from bombing ISIS TBH

Lyneham Lad

19th Aug 2016, 09:41

In The Times today (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/moscow-presses-turkey-for-access-to-us-airbase-dcqblj25g?shareToken=630167faf685aa99d9f467d52d6c421b):-

Extract from article - Russia is pressing Turkey for access to a key airbase used by the US as it tries to extend its influence in the Middle East.

The American-built Incirlik base, about 65 miles from the Syrian border, is used by Nato and has about 50 US nuclear warheads stored on site. A senior Russian politician said that allowing Russian jets and bombers to use it would be a logical continuation of President Erdogan’s efforts to rebuild Turkey’s relations with the Kremlin.

“It just remains to come to an agreement with Erdogan that we get the Nato base Incirlik as [our] primary airbase,” Senator Igor Morozov, a member of the upper house’s committee on international affairs, said. This would allow the Russian air force to subject Islamic State and other jihadist groups to “constant bombing” and bring the war to a quicker conclusion, he said.

“You’ll see, the next base will be Incirlik,” he told Izvestia, a Moscow daily, after the Kremlin revealed this week that its bombers had started using a base in Iran to launch attacks on Syria. “This will be one more victory for Putin.”

:ooh::eek:

TEEEJ

22nd Aug 2016, 19:15

A week after allowing Russian planes to fly bombing runs into Syria from a base inside its borders, Iran reversed course on Monday and withdrew permission for the flights, complaining that the Kremlin had been too public about the arrangement.

The about-face and the explanation for it from Iran’s Foreign Ministry seemed to surprise Russia, where state news media had been trumpeting the deal as a sign of a growing friendship with Iran.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/23/world/middleeast/iran-russia-syria.html

A_Van

23rd Aug 2016, 05:11

It is a very good news. Luckily, no logistics infrastructures have been deployed there that would result in extra money to take them out. Hope local politicians start understanding they should not trust or rely too much on Iran, especially in military aspects. I wonder if they would recall that Assad is the Iranian puppet, in the first instance?

NutLoose

23rd Aug 2016, 11:41

Lonewolf_50

23rd Aug 2016, 12:34

Turkey is now shelling both sides in a bid to allow some 1,500 Turkish-backed Syrian rebels gathered in the Turkish city of Gaziantep, to drive IS out of Jarablus.

Turkey shells both IS and Kurdish positions in Syria - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37161538) I sit here sipping my coffee, and wonder what the RoE is for this particular fight. *scratches head* Glad I'm not the one answering the calls for fire.

ORAC

4th Sep 2016, 09:04

y8YIjFKTMUk

ORAC

28th Sep 2016, 11:47

Both main hospitals directly attacked and destroyed by either a Russian or Syrian aircraft using PGMs. Reports are attack was by a single aircraft which took out first one one of the hospitals, then the other.

Looks like a premeditated and planned attack, neither accidental nor collateral damage.

57mm

28th Sep 2016, 18:20

UN Sec Gen rightly classifies this as a war crime. Meanwhile, the slaughter continues.

racedo

28th Sep 2016, 20:53

UN Sec Gen rightly classifies this as a war crime.

So hitting a Hospital is a war crime.................... interesting.

Lonewolf_50

28th Sep 2016, 20:55

I doubt that Mr Assad, and Mr Putin, give a flying fart what the UN Sec Gen has to say.

MSOCS

28th Sep 2016, 23:48

What an utter sh*tstorm this is! The World media have an absolute duty to present the full abhorrence of this situation to every home across the globe. The image of the poor, drowned migrant toddler on the beach was enough to rouse the international communities to respond with meaning; this situation goes way beyond that one IMHO. Action thus far has been weak.

Release the footage, the evidence, the horror and show Russia and Syria for what they really are.

Utter barbarians!

recceguy

29th Sep 2016, 01:53

When US (or NATO which is the same) hits an hospital it's a mistake or a collateral damage.
When it's the other side it's a war crime.

This time over Syria the farce of no-fly zones as they were implemented over Bosnia or Irak will not happen, thanks to Su-35 and S-400.
I understand a truce has to be enforced, as for the moment the US-backed islamist insurgents (the so-called "moderate" ones) are clearly losing ground.

When instead of Aleppo it was Dresden or Hamburg or even Le Havre, the world media was not so present.

DroneDog

29th Sep 2016, 15:58

The Syrian horror show effects both sides, yet no western media outlet shows the mangled kids on Assad's side.
Reports from Syrian on social media state that mysterious transport aircraft with no markings are seen dropping supplies to ISIS positions, Bizarre.

Lonewolf_50

29th Sep 2016, 16:49

When US (or NATO which is the same) hits an hospital it's a mistake or a collateral damage.
When it's the other side it's a war crime.
Plenty of posters here get on the "war crime" bus as soon as a building is reported to be hit by someone from the US. (The one in Kandahar within the last year or two is a case in point).
Unlike them, I don't assume that what the news reports spit out initially is some how Gospel.

For example in this case: if someone was shooting at the aircraft, or the troops who the aircraft are supporting, from the roof of that hospital, they turned the hospital into a fighting position by that very act.
Hmm ... a fighting position is a valid target.

Give this some time. What really happened? Neither you nor I know, beyond "something blowed-up, sir." .

racedo

29th Sep 2016, 19:00

15 years after 9/11 US is supporting Al Qaeda.

US / UK and other Nato members forces are in a Sovreign country supporting a side in a Civil war who are happy to slaughter and murder in their barbarity to get on TV.

We have seen what happened in Libya when it was pretty obvious what the end result would be.

MSOCS

29th Sep 2016, 21:23

Something tells me that indiscriminately (i.e. dropping whole sticks of non-precision Russian weapons) laying waste to swathes of urban areas, known to be occupied with vulnerable children, women and men - and using thermobaric warheads!!?? - is not a valid comparison with how the "west" do their business.

On the subject of collateral then yes, by definition, if something other than the intended target was inadvertently hit in this instance, it's "collateral damage." But....you don't drop entire sticks of thermobaric weapons if your targeting assessment shows there's a high risk to others - ergo, this is either deliberate (they knew), or they aren't considerate of CDM and are inept. Both conclusions are despicable IMHO.

flyhardmo

30th Sep 2016, 06:23

https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2016/09/29/why-everything-you-hear-about-aleppo-is-wrong/

Could be propaganda from the Syrian side but I sense a lot more truth in then we have been fed by our media outlets and our governments. Worth watching the video.

Lonewolf_50

30th Sep 2016, 13:59

Could be propaganda from the Syrian side but I sense a lot more truth in then we have been fed by our media outlets and our governments. Worth watching the video.
That video has more fluff than content -- but her perspective from seeing stuff in Syria is of interest. Takes to long for that talking head to get to the point, and the bias is obvious. It's value is in getting someone who's been around there to describe things with a different narrative slant than the daily sound bytes most commonly transmitted from "mainstream news."

DroneDog

30th Sep 2016, 16:58

I actually found it quite balanced, more so than the BBC / C4 fodder we are fed, as far as i know Assad was democratically elected with observers from the UN verifying the election.
The west reason for being there is to force through a gas pipeline that Assad has redused and to exploit the countries natural resources.
The female being interview is British so I can see a sense of balance in what is being reported.
You see for years we have witnessed wars in the middle east, each one pretty horrific but this time the effects are now being felt in Europe and the USA as mass immigration is now the norm. All so that a few multinationals can make a few bucks...
Have a look at Yemen, I had to look for it on a map such as the threat it posed to the west and how western weapons used by our mates the Saudis are causing havoc and yet more bad feeling and ultimately terrorism. Yet no covergae on BBC or C4....funny old world.

A_Van

30th Sep 2016, 17:32

DroneDog,

Right observation about Yemen, IMHO. Surprisingly, there is quite a little noise about Yemen in the Russian media as well, though many issues there are more tough than in Syria, including massive casualties of the civil population. I would expect much more accusations towards "Saudi vassals of US".

MSOCS

30th Sep 2016, 17:42

Russian State-sponsored trolling. Never trust anything you read on forums.

Yes, yes, it works both ways. I know....

ORAC

1st Oct 2016, 18:07

Manager of largest Aleppo hospital reports it has been struck again repeatedly in a series of of air attacks; a mixture of barrel bombs, including chlorine, and cluster bombs.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/01/russia-warns-us-not-to-intervene-aleppo-hospital

SASless

2nd Oct 2016, 00:18

So the Syrians and its Shia allies in the Region are going to finally kick the Opposition forces out of Aleppo.

I am sure Obama and Kerry shall give them a stern talking to about that.

Oh...sorry....the Shia are tied to the Iranians and we know how many Iranians there are pulling Obama's Strings.

Very opportune time for all those Billions of Dollars and other Cash Payments to wind up in the Iranian Coffers.

US officials said they were seeing signs that thousands of troops from across the Shia world - including Syrian regime soldiers, Iranian Revolutionary Guards, Hizbollah fighters, Iraqi militiamen and Afghan mercenaries - were massing for a final assault on Aleppo.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/01/john-kerry-suggests-syrian-elections-include-assad-as-hospitals/

NutLoose

2nd Oct 2016, 02:30

Russia warns US not to intervene as hospital is hit in latest Aleppo blitz (http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/russia-warns-us-not-to-intervene-as-hospital-is-hit-in-latest-aleppo-blitz/ar-BBwSTx4?li=BBoPRmx&ocid=iehp)

Russia warns US not to intervene as hospital is hit in latest Aleppo blitz

SASless

2nd Oct 2016, 03:16

Sorry...we don"t even call Islamic Terrorists "Islamic" so must be you are a bit confused about these Insurgents!

When US (or NATO which is the same) hits an hospital it's a mistake or a collateral damage.
When it's the other side it's a war crime.

This time over Syria the farce of no-fly zones as they were implemented over Bosnia or Irak will not happen, thanks to Su-35 and S-400.
I understand a truce has to be enforced, as for the moment the US-backed islamist insurgents (the so-called "moderate" ones) are clearly losing ground.

When instead of Aleppo it was Dresden or Hamburg or even Le Havre, the world media was not so present.

recceguy

3rd Oct 2016, 10:45

As much confused as the US are about which people they do support ?

Al-Nosra (supported by US) = Al Qaïda..... and Al Qaïda was 9/11, that's as simple as that.

Ref: (and a couple of other magazines and newspaper extracts, easy to find)

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/middleeast/article4545775.ece

Now explain to me.

ShotOne

4th Oct 2016, 08:15

If I'd read that from an anonymous ppruner I might have assumed him to be a Putinbot but General Petraus really is insisting we MUST support Al Qaeda against ISIS. That's the thing about speaking in imperatives; it doesn't have to make sense. Assad would probably have dealt with ISIS quite comfortably without our intervention...as would Saddam, come to that...

DroneDog

4th Oct 2016, 08:44

To throw into the mix

Russia Kills 30 US, Israeli, British Officers Believed To Be Assisting ISIS – Anonymous (http://www.anonews.co/russia-strikes/)

NutLoose

4th Oct 2016, 11:45

Al-Qaeda Leader in Syria Admits US Is Backing Them in Interview – Anonymous (http://www.anonews.co/al-qaeda-syria/)

http://www.anonews.co/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/al-qaeda-us-backed.jpg

TEEEJ

4th Oct 2016, 12:39

To throw into the mix

Russia Kills 30 US, Israeli, British Officers Believed To Be Assisting ISIS – Anonymous (http://www.anonews.co/russia-strikes/)

It is a propaganda hit piece generated by Sputnik (Russian News Agency).

SASless

4th Oct 2016, 12:46

Toadstool

4th Oct 2016, 19:33

How's that Obama Foreign Policy working out for all of you that raved about his being elected eight years ago?

I don't see all those cheering crowds of admirers anymore....what happened?

Did his Secretary of State choices give him bad guidance for the past eight years?

We are out of Helmand and I haven't seen flag draped coffins coming off the tails of C17s at Brize for quite some time. I will take that thanks very much.

Any chance your political rants could be kept in Jet blast?

Back to Syria.

Given the worsening of relations with Russia, they seem to have beefed up their air defence capability in Syria.

http://www.militarytimes.com/articles/russia-deploys-new-air-defense-missiles-in-syria

recceguy

4th Oct 2016, 23:24

Any chance your political rants could be kept in Jet blast?

So you don't like what you read ... sorry mate, it's a forum, and you have to realize that many people have different opinions than yours, and are not really on the US side (should we ?) when they do support al Qaida and affiliates.

I understand it's can be quite destabilising for you to acknowledge that some of us might be current wide-bodies Captains and/or former Groupe Captains/Colonels

Toadstool

5th Oct 2016, 16:38

I understand it's can be quite destabilising for you to acknowledge that some of us might be current wide-bodies Captains and/or former Groupe Captains/Colonels

Not at all recce. I understand it can be quite destabilising for you to acknowledge that those of us who are not captains/colonels/group captains have opinions:ok:

MSOCS

5th Oct 2016, 18:39

and that said Captains/Colonels and Group Captains can be quite wrong too....

To think otherwise is [probably] the very definition of arrogance.

ORAC

8th Oct 2016, 13:52

Interesting connection of the dots.....

Last week Erdogan questioned the Treaty of Lausanne of the status of the Greek islands off the Turkish coast. Which seemed strange, as he is unlikely to try to go to war over them.

Greece Defense Official: Contest Treaty, Contest EU Borders (http://www.defensenews.com/articles/greece-defense-official-contest-treaty-contest-eu-borders)

The article below, however, suggests he had a more oblique reason for questioning the treaty......

The questioning of the treaty of Lausanne and backstage with the Iraqi oil | Independent Balkan News Agency (http://www.balkaneu.com/questioning-treaty-lausanne-backstage-iraqi-oil/)

"Tension has risen between Baghdad and Ankara on the presence of Turkish troops in northern Iraq. But almost all political analysts agree that the goal of Turkey is to participate in the liberation of Mosul from the hands of the jihadists -an operation which perhaps is going to take place in November.

Ankara seems to be targeting the oil fields of the region. More likely there is a connection to this claims and the questioning of the Lausanne Treaty by Recep Tayyip Erdogan ten days ago. With the Lausanne Treaty Turkey withdrew its claims on Mosul and Kirkuk and conceded that area to the British administration in 1926.

The Iraqi Parliament on Tuesday called on Turkey to withdraw its military force from the northern Iraqi city of Bashika. About 500 Turkish soldiers are located there since March 2015, whose purpose according to the Ankara is to train the men who will take part in the fighting against the Islamic State. Bashika is just 12 km from Mosul. The Iraqi Parliament called these Turkish forces as “occupying forces”. Ankara’s response was contemptuous, with the representative of the Turkish government Numan Kurtulmuş stating: “they speak of national sovereignty but where were they when others took over Mosul”?

The Turkish president however, in a television interview had revealed the intentions of Turkey when he said that “nobody has the right to invade Mosul. After the liberation of Mosul from the “Islamic State” only Sunni Arabs, Turkmen and Sunni Kurds should stay there”. Essentially, the Turkish president showed that Turkey wants the region to be controlled by Sunni Muslims, ignoring the intentions of the Shiites, who are the majority in Iraq and Iran.........

“If there is a country that is entitled to speak of Mosul, apart from Iraq, is Turkey. The Turkmen in the region were never protected by Baghdad. Until 1987 the Turkish budget documents the rights that should be collected by the oil of the region. Our forces in Bashika are following the demand of the northern Iraqi Kurds. Turkey has a greater right than even the US to participate in the battles of Mosul and then be on the negotiations table”, says Fikret Bila in Hürriyet, explaining the views of the Turkish Government..............."

Martin the Martian

12th Oct 2016, 10:55

In yesterday's parliamentary debate on Syria, it was asked where the Stop the War Coalition was.

Today on R4 this morning asked the very same question of one of the organisation's higher-ups. I would say his reply smacks of breathtaking hypocrisy but, then again, he probably doesn't want to bite the hand that feeds.

BBC Radio 4 - Today, 12/10/2016 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07x5qqh)

Jump to 53:30.

A_Van

12th Oct 2016, 12:28

A heavy portion of hypocricy resides with mass media, which manipulate the audience.

E.g., in Syria both sides heavily shoot at other: Assad troops and "rebels" (majority of which are teamed up with Nusra/Al-Qaeda and Daesh/ISIS). Western media hysterically reports casualties caused by the former side and keeps silence about the latter. Similarly, Russian and some arabic media show similar footage on how "rebel" (read, "terrorist") mortars are destrying Aleppo living quarters that are under governmental control also killing innocent women and children.

Lonewolf_50

12th Oct 2016, 17:07

Interesting connection of the dots.....

The questioning of the treaty of Lausanne and backstage with the Iraqi oil | Independent Balkan News Agency (http://www.balkaneu.com/questioning-treaty-lausanne-backstage-iraqi-oil/)
{snip}
The Turkish president however, in a television interview had revealed the intentions of Turkey when he said that “nobody has the right to invade Mosul. After the liberation of Mosul from the “Islamic State” only Sunni Arabs, Turkmen and Sunni Kurds should stay there”. Essentially, the Turkish president showed that Turkey wants the region to be controlled by Sunni Muslims, ignoring the intentions of the Shiites, who are the majority in Iraq and Iran.........

“If there is a country that is entitled to speak of Mosul, apart from Iraq, is Turkey. The Turkmen in the region were never protected by Baghdad. Until 1987 the Turkish budget documents the rights that should be collected by the oil of the region. Our forces in Bashika are following the demand of the northern Iraqi Kurds. Turkey has a greater right than even the US to participate in the battles of Mosul and then be on the negotiations table”, says Fikret Bila in Hürriyet, explaining the views of the Turkish Government..............."
ORAC, that's a great summary of the Turks showing a bit of their hand in the long game they've been playing. No surprise.

NutLoose

1st Nov 2016, 22:54

Meanwhile I see the Beeb are saying the Iraqis are on the verge of re-capturing Mosul... surely that is re-taking as it was theirs to start with?

ORAC

2nd Nov 2016, 06:00

Depends if you consider it historically/politically/religiously as a Shia/Sunni/Kurd/Turkoman city........

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/10/21/the-history-of-mosul-in-five-maps/

jolihokistix

2nd Nov 2016, 06:44

Good reading, ORAC. That clarified Turkey's position for me, somewhat. Thanks.

ORAC

2nd Nov 2016, 11:09

Joli, for a Turkish view on Mosul and the Lausanne Treaty, see here.

http://dergiler.ankara.edu.tr/dergiler/44/676/8604.pdf

ORAC

3rd Nov 2016, 10:22

ANKARA (Reuters) — Turkey’s military has begun deploying tanks and other armored vehicles to the town of Silopi near the Iraqi border, in a move the defense minister said on Tuesday was related to the fight against terrorism and developments across the border. Fikri Isik said Turkey had “no obligation” to wait behind its borders and would do what was necessary if Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) militants took a foothold in Iraq’s Sinjar region, about 115 kilometers south of Silopi. “We will not allow the threat to Turkey to increase,” he told broadcaster A Haber in an interview.

The army deployment, disclosed by military sources, came after President Tayyip Erdogan said on Saturday that Turkey was aiming to reinforce its troops in Silopi. Photos from the sources showed a long column of vehicles, including tanks, tank rescue vehicles and construction vehicles in single file.

The deployment coincides with an Iraqi operation to drive the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) from the northern Iraqi city of Mosul and after Iraqi Shiite militias launched a related offensive to push the jihadists out of the town of Tal Afar further west. Erdogan said on Saturday Ankara would have a “different response” for Shiite militias if they “cause terror” in Tal Afar, home to a sizeable ethnic Turkmen population with historic and cultural ties to Turk

ORAC

4th Nov 2016, 14:16

RWfZmfMLJ_s

downsizer

4th Nov 2016, 14:23

Nice, now we are posting ISIS propaganda videos.

57mm

4th Nov 2016, 15:17

Noticed that the Russian aircraft carrier has broken down and is now being towed by its accompanying tug.........

A_Van

4th Nov 2016, 15:25

"Noticed that the Russian aircraft carrier has broken down and is now being towed by its accompanying tug......... " as it was copypasted from a house-wife forum :-)

Looks like it stands still and is being re-fuelled.

TEEEJ

4th Nov 2016, 18:00

Noticed that the Russian aircraft carrier has broken down and is now being towed by its accompanying tug.........

Is this the image that you saw?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwV8FzyWgAEQg_K.jpg:large

From

https://twitter.com/D__Mitch/status/794179032686399488

Not being towed but refueling from Northern Fleet tanker Dubna.

Sat image was from October 28th off the coast of Morocco.

NutLoose

4th Nov 2016, 18:49

It seems a fundamental flaw in their operations to have a warship, especially the size of a carrier sitting stationary while it takes on stores or fuel.

Martin the Martian

29th Nov 2016, 12:42

Good to see so many MPs advocating airdrops of food over Aleppo by the RAF. No doubt they will all be first in the queue to sit on the jump seat as an observer.

Hangarshuffle

29th Nov 2016, 21:18

Yea I heard them on about that last night as well, including Benn.
He was one of the first parliamentary twats to advocate more UK mil involvement.
None of them have a ******* clue.

Hangarshuffle

30th Nov 2016, 19:14

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/30/hundreds-of-mps-back-campaign-for-syria-aid-airdrops-aleppo

201 MPs have made a signature list asking for airdrops on Aleppo. I'm sort of staggered by this demand but not really surprised.
Wondering if my MP signed it.. maybe contact at my MP and ask her again to counsel avoid UK involvement. I mean its only what 19 days since Armistice. and all those poppies...yet quickly off we go again.
Think it would be very dangerous for our own people even in the slim chance this occurred. Easily construed as support for the rebels which would put our people in direct danger IMHO. Or may be its just simple me?

Lonewolf_50

30th Nov 2016, 21:19

If they die while hungry or die with a bit of food in their bellies, when the projected massacres occur ... how does this airdrop help? From the linked Guardian article: The issue was also raised in prime minister’s questions by Angus Robertson, the SNP leader in Westminster, who pressed the government to do more to help end the suffering of people in Syria.
“The situation in the besieged city of Aleppo is so bad it could be one of the biggest massacres of civilian population since the second world war,” he said.
“It is very welcome that the UN security council is discussing Syria to consider what can actually be done to alleviate the suffering of people. But things are so bad that aid agencies say Aleppo is experiencing a descent into hell.
“Can I appeal to the prime minister, time is of the essence: please can everything be done to help the people of Aleppo and Syria?”
Aid agencies never stop asking for more. (It's in the nature of the business, I suppose). Granted, this isn't my government nor our people (we've got a variety of folks in the region doing a variety of stuff) but I don't find Mr Robertson's appeal to be rational. Caveat: I was career military, so perhaps I just can't see things through his pair of glasses.

So I'll ask: is he doing this to try embarrassing the sitting government (who are not his party) or does he honestly believe that air dropped food is going to solve the problem? The problem is that there isn't a cease fire.

Davef68

1st Dec 2016, 16:19

An observation. If the MPs had voted to back bombing Assad a few years ago, where would we be today? Would Russia have jumped in then?

ORAC

7th Dec 2016, 14:58

Israeli missiles strike airport near Syrian presidential palace (http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israeli-missiles-strike-airport-near-syrian-presidential-palace-1783224561)

Second time in eight days that Israeli jets had targeted positions outside Damascus

A barrage of Israeli missiles struck an airbase outside Damascus overnight without causing any casualties, Syrian state media reported on Wednesday. According to the Al-Mayadeen television channel, the jets targeted the Mezzeh military airport, which neighbours President Bashar al Assad's palace. Loud explosions in the Mezzeh neighbourhood were also reported on social media.

Syrian State news agency SANA said the missiles were fired from a position "west of Tal Abu Nada", a mountain in the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights known as Mount Avital in Israel. "At 3:00 am (01:00 GMT) the Israeli enemy fired several surface to surface missiles from inside occupied territory," the state news agency SANA said, citing a military source. The media agency said the missiles caused a fire but no casualties.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a Britain-based monitor, earlier reported the sounds of explosions in the area of the airbase and said fires had erupted inside the facility afterwards. It did not confirm the source of the explosions.

The Mezzeh airbase, less than eight kilometres (five miles) southwest of Damascus, hosts the headquarters of the feared air force intelligence service and its notorious prison.

It was the second time in eight days that Israel, which is technically still at war with Syria, had targeted positions outside Damascus. Last week, Damascus alleged that Israeli jets attacked west of Damascus, with reports in Arab media saying an arms convoy intended for Hezbollah was the target.

The news came amid tensions along Israel's northern border after clashes between the Israeli army and militants affiliated with the Islamic State group........

Lonewolf_50

7th Dec 2016, 15:03

It was the second time in eight days that Israel, which is technically still at war with Syria, had targeted positions outside Damascus. Last week, Damascus alleged that Israeli jets attacked west of Damascus, with reports in Arab media saying an arms convoy intended for Hezbollah was the target. The news came amid tensions along Israel's northern border after clashes between the Israeli army and militants affiliated with the Islamic State group...
Ah, so that's why the Israelis are pitching in. Time to make a fresh batch of popcorn.

racedo

10th Dec 2016, 16:51

Strange that Syria has recovered 95% of Aleppo city and there hasn't been a massacre of hundreds of thousands.

There hasn't been hundreds of thousands there.

A_Van

11th Dec 2016, 06:26

Racedo,

Right, MOUT as usual. Losses are inevitable. BTW, I assume the situation in Mosul/Iraq is not better. Terrorists there also use human shields and do not allow the civilians to leave the occupied blocks (mines, killings of those who attempt to run away).

57mm

11th Dec 2016, 18:26

ISIS recapture Palmyra; thought they were supposed to be all but defeated?

MSOCS

11th Dec 2016, 18:33

Well, if Russia had been attacking Daesh as they have purported to, instead of shoreing up Assad against the Rebels, perhaps Palmyra wouldn't have fallen...again.

I'm sure once Aleppo is totally in Assad's hands, he'll purge Daesh once and for all. After he spends the next 50 years paying Putin back for the assistance, and has rebuilt most of the city.

A_Van

12th Dec 2016, 03:46

Well, if the western coalition would not encourage Saudis and Qatar to support "rebels" who are Al Qaeda associates and where Daesh gets the weapons from, the Syrian territory would be already cleaned up from the terrorists.

And this strange policy when the "rebels" are nearly nailed down: the West starts pressure not to kill them, let them go out, arrange for multi-day fire-stops, etc. All this allows for the terrorists to re-group, get supplies and attack in another place, like it happened to Palmyra recently. Another threat may arise from Mosul: the fears are that the coalition would simply allow the terrorist go to Syria to make it more difficult to Syrians.

ORAC

12th Dec 2016, 06:17

MSOCS, it'll just end up as a 3 way fight between Assad, the Turks and the Kurds - particularly over the northern oilfields and Mosul.

Lonewolf_50

12th Dec 2016, 14:51

Ten years ago, peter W Galbraith wrote The End of Iraq (https://www.amazon.com/End-Iraq-American-Incompetence-Created/dp/0743294246)
One of his most compelling themes was that the Kurds would be the only beneficiaries of the breakup of Iraq as we knew it then.
He got that partially right. After reading his book, one wonders if, in the law of unintended outcomes, that war should have been named Operation Kurdish Freedom. No wonder the Turks declined to let the Fourth Armored Division start in Turkey and head south. They saw the writing on the wall.

Given that certain clutures/ethnicities have been given preferred status by the so-called international community -- Bosniaks, Albanians, "Macedonians" and a few others -- why not the Kurds? Why not the Pashtun? Why not redraw those lines on the map?

ImageGear

12th Dec 2016, 15:01

???

How about the Crimea and Ukraine borders?

Not to get too political about what constitutes a reason for redrawing borders.

Imagegear

Lonewolf_50

12th Dec 2016, 15:39

???

How about the Crimea and Ukraine borders?

Not to get too political about what constitutes a reason for redrawing borders.

Imagegear
Those borders appear to have been redrawn when the USSR became CIS and then became Russia minus a number of former republics. That is consistent, for folks like the Armenians, Georgians, various denizens of the Farbakistans, and in Ukraine, getting the benefit of "new lines on the map" but it does leave their Russian resident populations (sometimes) in a bind (as seen up in the Baltic state) and creates problems of its own.

I guess we won't see populations transfers, as between the Greeks and Turks after WWI, endorsed by the UN as it was by the Powers That Be in Europe a century ago. I suppose that's progress?
The UN seems to have taken on the attitude that "the lines as we see them now (1945) are inviolable unless they change with our approval" are what's 'right' ... hmmm, I guess that does open a can of worms, eh?
Saddam tried to redraw some lines in 1990 (to get that 19th province back) and it didn't seem to work out for him). Putin has better success in the Caucasus, and recently Crimea. Guess who's got a permanent seat on the UNSC? :E ;)

ORAC

13th Dec 2016, 10:49

Sky News are reporting the United Nations as stating that Assad forces entering Aleppo are conducting a house to house search as they advance and killing all occupants they find - men, women and children, no exceptions.

Lonewolf_50

13th Dec 2016, 12:56

When the Bosnian Serbs did stuff like this, the UN got involved in the ground. Interesting double standards at work. Then again, per my previous comment, guess who has a permanent seat on the UNSC?

The Nip

14th Dec 2016, 07:54

ORAC,

I can't dispute what Sky News are saying, it does raise the question whether all this news is 'fake' to suit an agenda.

There are always 2 sides to a story. The West have a reason for this type of story to run.

A_Van

14th Dec 2016, 09:06

In the course of liberating eastern Aleppo, several mobile field studios were found (along with some footage) where terrorist groups and so-called "white helmets" (closely associated with them) were creating all those "horror" films. It could be seen how special people put speciaL make-up ("blood", "wounds", etc) on the faces and bodies of poor kids (even babies) invloved in the show. Then, how rehearsal took place (e.g. put poor little ones beneath the conrete plate and then "recover" out of there), then "take 1", "take 2", etc. And the same kids "migrated" from one scenario to another.
No need to say that when eastern Aleppo was liberated, no operating schools and hospitals were found there. All such buildings were used for military purpose (weapon stores, command posts, etc.).
Another fake is about "mass killings" while in reality some 100+K civilians ran to western parts to find shelter. I am rather surprised in the opposite way: the local "combatants" after they surrender and put weapons down are massively "forgiven" and let go. Only foreign merceries are "treated in the right way". I was thinking that some 10-20 years in "comfortable desert stone quarries" would be more appropriate for terrorists (provided due evidences exist on their atrocities).

Arclite01

14th Dec 2016, 09:18

History is written by the victors A_Van, we all know that.

and it wouldn't be the first time that the truth is not the truth or the whole truth in a war zone.

There are certainly some people suffering out there.

Arc

ORAC

14th Dec 2016, 09:43

Maskirovka may work elsewhere - but not here.

A_Van

14th Dec 2016, 12:47

Arc,

You are right. Moreover, unfortunately, very often the truth is not uncovered even centures after.

Today I was using a Moscow metro (subway, underground, U-bahn, ...). There is a train there totally dedicated to Shakespeare. Nicely decorated with lots of quotes in original and Russian translation. In front of my eyes there was the following text from "King Lear":
"Time shall unfold what plighted cunning hides,
Who covers faults at last with shame derides.
Well may you prosper"

I am afraid the author (or Cordelia) was wrong in the first line when using the word "unfold" :-(

SkyHawk-N

14th Dec 2016, 14:07

For what has been going on in Aleppo and Syria in general, there is an independent Canadian journalist who has visited several times and actually has some first hand knowledge. She is not very complimentary of BBC and other MSM reporting.

g1VNQGsiP8M

Interesting about the 'White Helmets', who have been given some $100 million but she says that no one in Eastern Aleppo has heard of them!

8IIrzJcEWAU

Hangarshuffle

14th Dec 2016, 18:56

Its a civil war. Backed by various outside factions... its very confusing for ordinary British people to understand why our forces, sent by our Government should in any single way either interfere or be involved.
I'll nail my colours to the mast- we should not be involved and thankfully we haven't been.
I know my post is a little out of context but I still keep hearing various MPs stating why we should be involved and I disagree with them.

T28B

14th Dec 2016, 20:58

there is an independent Canadian journalist
Independent? Journalist? There is no such thing -- she does this for money. What does exist is a journalists with a different editorial bias.

She's offering opinion as well as observation, but she's also speaking from having been on the ground over there and having seen that whole mess up close and personal a half a dozen different times. That, and her not having the editorial bias of the MSM are in her favor, big time.

I thank you for the link and I appreciate her candor. That's hard to find anymore. It's at the very least a different angle than the "corporate media" from Russia, or the "corporate media" based in various Western nations whom she excoriates in her talk. (Given my experiences with the media, I like to see the major media take a shot to the chops given how often they simply get it wrong, be it matters of aviation or military).

ORAC

14th Dec 2016, 21:18

Eva Bartlett? A long time apologist for Assad and a long time paid shill for Russia Today. Impartial? Joke, right?

https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/comment/2016/5/25/assads-allies-in-the-west

"...When there was starvation in besieged Madaya, Eva Bartlett, a Canadian writer for Russia Today,trumpeted reports claiming that the images of severely malnourished children were either fake or propaganda....."

racedo

14th Dec 2016, 21:30

"...When there was starvation in besieged Madaya, Eva Bartlett, a Canadian writer for Russia Today,trumpeted reports claiming that the images of severely malnourished children were either fake or propaganda....."

What you mean like the Kuwaiti stolen incubators ?

White helmets celebrating with bodies of dead Syrian soldiers while holding up Al Qaeda / IS signs...............

A_Van

15th Dec 2016, 05:53

ORAC, the URL you mentioned is self explanatory: the accusations on that brave girl come from UK arabs who will say whatever the establishment tells them. You may also add that so called Syrian observatory and those mad folks who call Trump as a Kremlin agent.

I "googled" on the Russian Net - she (Eva B.) was once interviewed by RT, but RT interviews hundreds of different people...

By the way, the same situation with several brave US and UK journalists operating in the south-east Ukraine. They say that "corporate media" does not want even to talk to them, to say nothing about footage, interviews and other materials.

Information war is our reality.

westernhero

15th Dec 2016, 08:37

A very good book

https://www.amazon.com/First-Casualty-Correspondent-Myth-Maker-Crimea/dp/080186951X

I doubt much has changed.

The Nip

15th Dec 2016, 18:19

Could someone explain why the 'fighters' are allowed to leave Aleppo and move to an area to fight again?
I can seem to find anything that explains the reasoning behind this.

Just This Once...

15th Dec 2016, 18:25

They are just moving them to the next desired mean point of impact. It's a bit like weapon to target matching, just done the other way around.

AnglianAV8R

15th Dec 2016, 18:42

There is more than one truth to tell in the terrible story of Aleppo | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/aleppo-falls-to-syrian-regime-bashar-al-assad-rebels-uk-government-more-than-one-story-robert-fisk-a7471576.html)

Lonewolf_50

15th Dec 2016, 22:02

Around the same time, Syrian soldiers were privately expressing their belief to me that the Americans would allow Isis to leave Mosul to again attack the regime in Syria. An American general had actually expressed his fear that Iraqi Shiite militiamen might prevent Isis from fleeing across the Iraqi border to Syria. ----------
I wonder who the reporter is referring to, and where that quote comes from. I was under the impression that 'kill or capture' was the RoE around Mosul, but perhaps I am guessing badly. A source would be interesting.
Well, so it came to pass. In three vast columns of suicide trucks and thousands of armed supporters, Isis has just swarmed across the desert from Mosul in Iraq, and from Raqqa and Deir ez-Zour in eastern Syria to seize the beautiful city of Palmyra all over again. Might they simply have caught the various forces in and around Mosul by surprise by moving *when* they did? Most of the forces trying to take Mosuls are focused on the problem in Iraq, their turf, not what's going on in Syria.
Take a look at this from an Iraqi local commander's perspective: if they flee Mosul, that's one less bunch of people I have to fight with this lashed together coalition trying to recapture the town. Don't send your precious air strikes off after those who are fleeing, I need those sorties over here. (Here being somewhere in or around Mosul.
One wonders at what went on, and why airstrikes on the moving units were not taken as attacks of opportunity? :confused:

SkyHawk-N

16th Dec 2016, 06:28

This is what the U.S. Commander (Townsend) had to say on ISIS leaving for Palmyra...

LiveLeak.com - US Commander Happy Palmyra Was Lost

Calling the Syrians "Russian Proxies" was very calculating.

Is it not beyond the realms of probability that in this instance the U.S. used Daesh as their proxies? So many thousands of fighters and vehicles, traveling out of a combat zone across a desert, without being detected and countered? The excuse of being in Syria does not wash, it hasn't stopped operations there over the last few years.

Toadstool

17th Mar 2017, 20:10

OK, so it was reported in the Mirror but..

Give RAF heroes campaign medal for fighting ISIS, says Labour Shadow Defence Secretary - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/give-raf-heroes-campaign-medal-10019794.amp)

Not heard anything concrete or rumours in the crew room.

ORAC

6th Apr 2017, 19:08

Rex Tillerson - Secretary of State - press conference this evening.

Question: "Would you and president Trump organise a coalition to remove Assad from office"

Answer: "Those negotiations are underway".......

tartare

7th Apr 2017, 01:35

A brace of at leasr 50 on their way... or already landed says Reuters.
This from the NYT.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/06/world/middleeast/us-said-to-weigh-military-responses-to-syrian-chemical-attack.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=a-lede-package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

MPN11

7th Apr 2017, 02:12

Much discussion on Fox News right now (1908 here in Phoenix, AZ).

It seems the US knew where the CBW strikes were launched from, and has checked no Russian aircraft were on site. Overnight attack to minimise impact of personnel at their workplace. No suggestion Putin was advised beforehand, but then monitoriting would have given them enough clues it was coming. USN destroyers had been training for 2 days before the launch.

Interesting timing for President Xi at Mar-del-Lago, who might see President Trump in a different light now.

Octane

7th Apr 2017, 02:14

The US has just "delivered" 50 Tomahawk cruise missiles to a Syrian Air Force Base. Hang on to your seats...

fleigle

7th Apr 2017, 02:21

And then we have this;
Syria war: US launches missile strikes in response to chemical 'attack' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39523654)
f

MPN11

7th Apr 2017, 02:22

Fox News now saying 59 Tomahawks used.

Octane

7th Apr 2017, 02:31

Hang on to your seats, this could be the beginning of something dramatic. I really hope not...

CONSO

7th Apr 2017, 04:41

The US has just "delivered" 50 Tomahawk cruise missiles to a Syrian Air Force Base. Hang on to your seats...

They asked ASS ad to sign the receipt to verify delivery but he wans't there. Maybe next delivery will be to his home at 3AM ?? lone can hope !! :cool:

Octane

7th Apr 2017, 04:58

I was hoping for that quite some years ago now. The man is pure evil. I'm sure they knew exactly where he was and could have done so if they desired... All a bit late now, wonder how the hell the Russians are going to respond to this? :uhoh:

A_Van

7th Apr 2017, 05:20

troppo

7th Apr 2017, 05:38

Professor Plum

7th Apr 2017, 05:45

ORAC

7th Apr 2017, 06:23

https://pbs-h2.twimg.com/media/C8xst95XcAU5wjX.jpg

Pentagon Statement.

At the direction of the president, U.S. forces conducted a cruise missile strike against a Syrian Air Force airfield today at about 8:40 p.m. EDT (4:40 a.m., April 7, in Syria). The strike targeted Shayrat Airfield in Homs governorate, and was in response to the Syrian government's chemical weapons attack April 4 in Khan Sheikhoun, which killed or injured hundreds of innocent Syrian people, including women and children.

The strike was conducted using Tomahawk Land Attack Missiles (TLAMs) launched from the destroyers USS Porter and USS Ross in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea. A total of 59 TLAMs targeted aircraft, hardened aircraft shelters, petroleum and logistical storage, ammunition supply bunkers, air defense systems, and radars. As always, the U.S. took extraordinary measures to avoid civilian casualties and to comply with the Law of Armed Conflict. Every precaution was taken to execute this strike with minimal risk to personnel at the airfield.

The strike was a proportional response to Assad's heinous act. Shayrat Airfield was used to store chemical weapons and Syrian air forces. The U.S. intelligence community assesses that aircraft from Shayrat conducted the chemical weapons attack on April 4. The strike was intended to deter the regime from using chemical weapons again.

Russian forces were notified in advance of the strike using the established deconfliction line. U.S. military planners took precautions to minimize risk to Russian or Syrian personnel located at the airfield.

We are assessing the results of the strike. Initial indications are that this strike has severely damaged or destroyed Syrian aircraft and support infrastructure and equipment at Shayrat Airfield, reducing the Syrian Government's ability to deliver chemical weapons. The use of chemical weapons against innocent people will not be tolerated.

A_Van

7th Apr 2017, 07:41

Business as usual: no proof (here about chemicals), blame your enemy for whatever happens in the world and arrange a strike.

"Déjà vu" in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Lybia, etc.

IS and so-called rebels often used chemicals both in Syria and Iraq (either self-made or stolen long ago from the regime before they were eleminated) but these facts were ignored and not broadcast in western "mainstream media". IMHO, it does not sound absurd that some of their stocks was blown up during the bombardment and poisoned an area around. However, I do not line out the possibility of the Assad's men involved (don't like that guy). In fact, it looks not so difficult to investigate what actually blew up that contained sarin (or whatever was inside), but who bothers? The side to be blamed was assigned in advance.

Professor Plum

7th Apr 2017, 07:59

Business as usual: no proof (here about chemicals), blame your enemy for whatever happens in the world and arrange a strike.

"Déjà vu" in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Lybia, etc.

Erm...... apart from the fact that gadaffi admitted to having chemical weapons, and then agreed to get rid of the (2004) and asked for foreign assistance transporting them out of the country (2014). But I'm sure you knew that!

Saddam also gassed plenty of Kurds. Remember?

As for Yugoslavia...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/721644.stm

Just This Once...

7th Apr 2017, 08:48

It was said here by the Russian media that the Russian military were informed shortly before the strike and they were assured that the parts of this base where their personnel might be located would not be hit.
Military wise I wonder why that many missiles were launched (59)? Are Tomahawks so ineffective?

The effectiveness of TLAM is well proven over decades of use. Airfields are large targets and hardened facilities need at least a warhead each, with larger ones needing more.

Missile attrition rates en-route to target would have been an unknown factor though. Russia (and therefore Syria) were pre-alerted so able to bring their IADS to bear in order to protect their base. Early reports suggest that the assembled defensive systems had little effect on the inbound strike. If this is to believed then this is a surprisingly ineffective display by Russian air defence systems.

Wander00

7th Apr 2017, 08:53

Interesting comments on BBC News by former UK Ambassador to Syria, who suggested an alternative scenario to CW attack, and that it could have been conventional weapons igniting ISIS store of CW, and suggesting strike by US was premature. Time will tell.

tartare

7th Apr 2017, 08:57

Can someone explain why purely logistically and technically (not politically) has Assad's airforce not been destroyed?
Surely that would be relatively easy to do, and would seriously cramp the ability to use chemical weapons and barrel bombs?

Roland Pulfrew

7th Apr 2017, 09:07

ORAC

7th Apr 2017, 09:10

There is a fine line between attempting to have Assad be removed and destroying the armed forces and the organs of state. Look what happened when they disbanded the armed forces and started debaathification in Iraq. And remember the USA, UK, France etc are fighting ISIS in the north and oppose many of the other Jihadist groups - who would move into the areas currently held by the state if they were rendered defenceless?

Punishing them for using CW against the CWC is not the same as destroying them.

Octane

7th Apr 2017, 09:15

If the Syrian Air Force is neutralized, I wonder if the Russians will take up the slack? I also wonder if they took out the barracks...

A_Van

7th Apr 2017, 09:26

Just This Once...,

This strike has nothing to do with the Russian air defense system (i.e. operated by the Russian military to protect Russian forces).
I assume that at the Syrian air base that was attacked there were some old Russian systems, but they were operated (and I doubt that they were) by Syrian dumbs with zero effectiveness.

In general, Tomahawks are easy targets for modern IADS unless they come massively in decades and hundreds. Maybe the USN just overestimated capabilities of the Syrians and sent that many CMs? To ground the aviation on such as base, a dozen or two would be enough.

P.S. This was my sarcasm about their in(effectiveness). I studied this stuff in detail since late 70's (at that time - BGM) in a military college.

tartare

7th Apr 2017, 09:27

Yep - understand all that ORAC - but trying to grasp how technically difficult it would be for the US and/or allies.
Destroy every Syrian fast jet and helicopter.

ORAC

7th Apr 2017, 09:50

If they were stupid enough to leave them in hangars and HAZ, relatively simple. A US general said this morning that if ordered they could take out every base in a day.

However, runways are easy to repair; and as found in GWI HAZ can be filled with rags and oil to make it look like an aircraft was inside/destroyed. The real things can be towed off base and put beside hospitals or hidden inside factories etc and towed back for take-off or launched from roads.

The figures for the number of aircraft required in GWI to be required to go back day after day to make sure a large dessert base with multiple runways stayed shut was eye opening.

Dougie M

7th Apr 2017, 10:10

Last week the Trump administration were uninterested in Syria's morass. Isn't this more of a "See president Xi what we can do to North Korean nuclear research centres if you don't do it first" demonstration.

Just This Once...

7th Apr 2017, 10:13

Just This Once...,

This strike has nothing to do with the Russian air defense system (i.e. operated by the Russian military to protect Russian forces).

In general, Tomahawks are easy targets for modern IADS unless they come massively in decades and hundreds. Maybe the USN just overestimated capabilities of the Syrians and sent that many CMs?

Then we would have to deduce that Russia tacitly approved of the attack and did nothing with their advanced systems to protect the host nation and trusted the US enough in that the inbound TLAM tracks would not terminate anywhere near their personnel.

I am more inclined to think the Russians were caught with their pants down and the announcement from Moscow that they will be bolstering their air defence capability in Syria as a result of this attack seems to support this.

Either way, this attack by 'easy targets' got through to their own target points.

A_Van

7th Apr 2017, 10:50

Eclectic

7th Apr 2017, 11:04

Russia either allowed TLAMs to rain down on a close ally, or its much vaunted S-300 system couldn't handle the threat. It is one or the other.
Either way they have egg on their face.
It would be interesting what ECM measures the USA employed in support of the strike package and whether they blinded the S-300 system.
Whatever happened there is a lot for Putin to digest.
Trump obviously was doing tit for tat and will now sit on his hands until Assad is naughty again. He could have attempted to decapitate the regime or enforced a no fly zone, but both of these options would be more politically fraught.
Then there is the undeniable fact that Trump has restored the World Order after 8 years of Obama. This affects the whole world, especially expansionist states such as China and Russia and pariah states such as North Korea.
The South China Sea is a problem that must be addressed sooner or later, likewise the mad child Kim Jong-un. Trump will definitely act when he needs to, we know that for sure now.

The left in USA have been claiming that Putin won the election for Trump. That accusation now looks pretty dumb. They also say that Putin has Trump sex tapes, presumably we will be seeing these sometime today. Putin has played the international law card but seems to be suffering amnesia about MH-17 and Crimea.
Also the Russian propaganda position that rebel CW stores were hit by conventional Syrian bombs looks pretty feeble, but has been picked up by the lefties and fellow travelers in the West.

Finally 59 TLAMs is a sizable package. Interesting what the % degradation of the Syrian airforce is.

Just This Once...

7th Apr 2017, 11:19

Either way, the previous boasts via TASS and RT look a little thin this morning:

TASS: Military & Defense - Three layers of Russian air defense at Hmeymim air base in Syria (http://tass.com/defense/855430)

https://www.rt.com/news/323815-syria-s-400-us-airstrikes/

I don't buy the idea that an airbase less than 100 miles away is of no concern, especially given the shoot-down on the Turkish boarder that prompted their deployment. Unless they had a major issue one suspects that the Russian Navy missile cruisers tracked the TLAMs from first launch and did nothing.

A_Van

7th Apr 2017, 11:50

Having a concern and launch an interceptor (even if it is possible, not the case here) are the issues of a completely different scale.

TLAMs were of course tracked, not from the ships only. I assume that when it was defined that they started flying in a pre-announced direction, the Russaan military "relaxed" and let the civil chatterboxes stream their usual blah-blah though the media.

Just This Once...

7th Apr 2017, 11:54

Ok, so you favour the notion that the Russian military permitted the attack. You may be correct of course.

A_Van

7th Apr 2017, 12:02

Ok, so you favour the notion that the Russian military permitted the attack. You may be correct of course.

"Permitted" is not the right word, for both sides. Rather, avoid military escalation.

pax britanica

7th Apr 2017, 12:08

This has nothing to do with Chemical weapons, Assad , the Russians etc T T it is just to big up Trump who has proven to be the complete paper tiger since being in office :-

Obamacare is still there
No additional Immigration restrictions because of courts
No Mexican wall in sight
idiotic behavior over Taiwan and having to grovel to the Chinese
FBI Investigations of what seems to be half his cabinet

No this is just something he can actually do so he did it to try and regain some credibility ahead of meeting the Chinese. The man is a complete idiot and a danger to the world proving once again that business and politics let alone statesmanship are different animals. Nice to see 'global Britain' being the first in with grovelling unequivocal support

Of course the USA is appalled at the chemical weapons use and indiscriminate bombing of civilians, after all the Arc Light B52 missions and Agent Orange use were too long ago to count right

Just This Once...

7th Apr 2017, 12:12

"Permitted" is not the right word, for both sides. Rather, avoid military escalation.

Pretty useless as a defensive system in that case.

TEEEJ

7th Apr 2017, 13:34

A Van wrote

3. The whole strike seems to be nothing but a "demo". The airstrip is OK, the planes in the field are OK. Some 6 old MiGs are gone with their shelters, fuel facilities, hangar with training classes and other secondary stuff. Quite nothing for 59 Tomahawks sent.

I believe that they were targeting Su-22 Fitters at the base. The planes in the field are old retired types used as training aids, decoys, etc. They have been there for years and obviously the US planners left them alone. Old MiG-15 or 17 (Likely 17) and retired Su-7 Fitter. Some could also be old Su-17/20s, but more than likely just Su-7s.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/alshayratdecoys.jpg

4. Disregarding the above consideration about the "demo", there are some rumours that less than 50% of CMs reached that airbase. I doubt such a poor performance, however 2 dead in the neighbouring village raises a point about accuracy. Anyway, it would be interesting to get real numbers. At least the holes on the planet are countable.

Of course the Russian Ministry are going to downplay the number of TLAMs that hit the base. It is all part of the propaganda game. The Pentagon are claiming 58 out of 59 hit their target. The same with the Russian UAV footage where they highlight the intact aircraft next to the runway. They know that those are derilict retired types and have been there for years, but they post the footage without comment and the armchair warriors fill in the blanks and claim "missed aircraft".

AI0Ey2IZrRY&feature=related

A_Van

7th Apr 2017, 15:24

Looks like this scenario was taken out of the shelf when the time arrived:

This is from your campus:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/britains-daily-mail-u-s-backed-plan-to-launch-chemical-weapon-attack-on-syria/5346912

By Louise Boyle (http://web.archive.org/web/20130129213824/http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?s=&authornamef=Louise+Boyle)

PUBLISHED: 14:16 EST, 29 January 2013 | UPDATED: 14:16 EST, 29 January 2013 copyright Daily Mail

Leaked emails have allegedly proved that the White House gave the green light to a chemical weapons attack in Syria that could be blamed on Assad’s regime and in turn, spur international military action in the devastated country.
.......

[email protected]

7th Apr 2017, 15:59

You clearly don't know how little credibility is given to anything in the Daily Mail - its worse than the Sun.

West Coast

7th Apr 2017, 16:10

In general, Tomahawks are easy targets for modern IADS

Van, can you provide documentation of Soviet era and now Russian IADS having had success against cruise missiles? Surely if as you put it, they were/are "easy targets" your client states must have taken them out in significant numbers.

I await your response.

A_Van

7th Apr 2017, 16:23

West Coast,

1. The answer for the 1st question is trivial and I am sure you know it: such data are not for public domain. But since my country has all kinds of modern weapons, no doubt that IADS components were tested against a broad range of targets including various types of cruise missiles.

2. About client states, as you put it, it should first be mentioned that the letter "I" is not applicable for them. And stand-alone complexes in hands of the guys who are hardly literal and had problems with discipline and motivation are nothing but a piece of metal. Look e.g., how your Saudi clients use F-15s: every now and then we hear that they hit wrong targets and kill hundreds of civilians.
Also, are you sure the Syrians had anything working at that airfield even to shoot at TALMs?

West Coast

7th Apr 2017, 16:50

It's far from trivial, the worth of the TLAM hinges on the veracity of your claim.

Any evidence on your part to support your claim would be helpful.

Also, are you sure the Syrians had anything working at that airfield even to shoot at TALMs?

Are you sure they didn't? At one time Syria had a robust IAD network. As there were numbers of Russan personnel there, wouldn't standard force protections dictate their presence? Your lot made quite a bit of noise about deploying the latest and greatest IADS after the Turks shot down your aircraft, one would think you would be ready for what is (and was) the most predictable method the US would engage. Most important, there are not 59 smoking holes (other than the targets) where Russian/Syrian IADS engaged the TLAMS. As you put it "easy targets" should have your ministry (and the Syrian equivelant ) talking up the effectiveness of their weapons, that's not in evidence.

Pontius Navigator

7th Apr 2017, 16:52

A Van, reference your last, are there any Soviet client states that don't have shed loads of ADA?

At the first wiff of an attack they usually light up like a Brock's benefit target or no. So, working, yes, effective demonstrably not.

Just This Once...

7th Apr 2017, 17:30

Looks like this scenario was taken out of the shelf when the time arrived:

Leaked emails have allegedly proved that the White House....

Except none of it was true and the reason you have to use a web archive to find it is that those that published the article withdrew it when they realised they had been had. They also faced litigation from the company quoted in the article and libel action from the totally innocent individuals whose real names were inserted into a faked email.

Scraping the bottom of the barrel digging that one up Van.

A_Van

7th Apr 2017, 18:39

Let me repeat: in this discussion I do not care about Syrian air defense, integrated, disintegrated, whatever. The staff is poorly educated, not trained at all. Whether they had or not any air defense at that place, I am not surprised the result is the same. The same for aviation: Israel proved many times during the last 50 years that even having comparable weapons, they (arabs) lose totally. But if the US ships would attack the Russian base, where IADS is really deployed and operated by right people, the result would be different, but there is a great probability that millions would not wake up this morning. Good night.

ORAC

7th Apr 2017, 19:01

The way I see it, anyone who buys Russian gets crap kit, crap training, crap support, and their arses handed to them when they go to war with a loss rate of about 100:1.

But I won't shout too loud about it - because I'm happy for them to keep buying it.....

West Coast

7th Apr 2017, 19:14

Van

You seem to be changing your tune from easy target to client states are inept. Why is that?

barnstormer1968

7th Apr 2017, 22:21

I wonder if one of the posters here remembers a recent conversation on ARRSE where they pointed out that with the modern Russian AD system in Syria that (in a hypothetical scenario) no single cruise missile could get to a target from a sub or surface vessel and that any vessel foolish enough to try would be wiped out easily. Ranges of well over 150km were easily covered by the AD system and it would shoot down fighters, stealth aircraft or missiles.
Just as well this latest raid was real and not hypothetical.............the pretend TLAMs' wouldnt have stood a chance!

racedo

7th Apr 2017, 23:04

Message sent was not for Assad or Syria, message was for North Korea.

SASless

7th Apr 2017, 23:11

Now I admit Things Metric easily defeat me....but I can grasp the simple fact "150km" is no where near the 1000 Mile range of a Cruise Missile.

tartare

7th Apr 2017, 23:23

Some interesting claims circulating on Twitter - that the whole thing was as stage managed as an episode of The Apprentice.
Russia was given two hours warning - then warned Assad.
Assets moved out of the way - TLAMs launched, Trump appears strong, Vladimir Vladimirovich points out how dangerous the US is, which is why he is needed at the helm, nothing important gets blown up.
Probably just a conspiracy theory... ;)

West Coast

8th Apr 2017, 01:20

Yah, but there's suckers everywhere that believe anything they hear that even slightly aligns with their beliefs.

walter kennedy

8th Apr 2017, 01:22

Posted by ORAC:
<<There is a fine line between attempting to have Assad be removed and destroying the armed forces and the organs of state. Look what happened when they disbanded the armed forces and started debaathification in Iraq.>>
Here, here - very much what UN boss in Iraq, Sergio di Mello said (shortly before US security let the truck bomb through that killed him).
What alternatives for stability are there other than Assad?
In the destruction of so many middle east states, cui bono?
Whatever the truth about the chemical weapons use, the response was premature and reckless - good job they have Trump as the figurehead to blame if it doesn't work out too well.

CONSO

8th Apr 2017, 01:40

Just This Once...,

1. First, this airbase is pretty far away from the one where the Russian forces are based (some 150 km). Neither Patriot, nor similar Russian systems were designed to shoot down CMs at such ranges.

2. The idea of giving the Syrians more air defense sounds questionable to me: those stupid would anyway f.. them out.

3. The whole strike seems to be nothing but a "demo". The airstrip is OK, the planes in the field are OK. Some 6 old MiGs are gone with their shelters, fuel facilities, hangar with training classes and other secondary stuff. Quite nothing for 59 Tomahawks sent.

4. Disregarding the above consideration about the "demo", there are some rumours that less than 50% of CMs reached that airbase. I doubt such a poor performance, however 2 dead in the neighbouring village raises a point about accuracy. Anyway, it would be interesting to get real numbers. At least the holes on the planet are countable.

Latest word is that it took about a half hour to launch 60- one dropped into ocean- the rest either loitered or took long way routes such that come zero time fort impact was timed so that all 59 hit target area within about 2 minutes. The pUrpose was very limited- the fireworks display must have been impressive and more effective than a power point demo on precision targeting and real time changes possible. - sort of like hitting a donkey ( jack - assad ) on the head with a two by four to get his attention. :=

Or the don cordelone equivalent of finding a horses head in his bed in the morning. Nothing personal- just business.:eek:

Lonewolf_50

8th Apr 2017, 02:35

But if the US ships would attack the Russian base, where IADS is really deployed and operated by right people, the result would be different, but there is a great probability that millions would not wake up this morning. Good night. Yeah, that's a serious concern, so I think that a bit of deconfliction was done ahead of time. Both heads of state would see it as being in their interest.

And once we understand that, Mr Assad is likely beginning to feel a little less happy about his long term relationship with his long term ally.

ImageGear

8th Apr 2017, 07:41

Message sent was not for Assad or Syria, message was for North Korea.

In recent years, the US has progressively divested its interests in the world balance of political power. However since the "mice" have been running around stealing or trying to steal, bits of tasty cheese, the US has decided that the line in the sand must be redrawn.

I'm sure that the list of "mice" would include: Russia, North Korea, Iran, Turkey, China and any number of minor rogue states. In addition, the "cats" will take some comfort in the knowledge that they once again have a "Top Cat", and that the pendulum of world political order is now more likely to swing the other way.

There is no doubt that the world as we know it does not fair well when political oversight becomes fragmented.

Imagegear

mickjoebill

8th Apr 2017, 08:17

The drone footage released by Russian TV shows some of the hangars where we can see daylight from end to end.
A still photo shows good detail of the pair of hangar doors blown off their rails and laying, flat in front of the hangar, indicating they were closed at time of impact. Would all of the hangars have had heavy blast proof doors, at both ends? The drone footage shows debris outside entrances to hangars, but no blast doors laying flat on the ground.

Can we assume hangars were hit at one end, obliterating blast doors at one end and blowing blast doors at the other end off their rails?

Australian Media report that the drone footage indicates the hangars are "intact" and use this to question the veracity of the US assessment!

Mickjoebill

[email protected]

8th Apr 2017, 08:53

Imagegear - just a shame that the 'TopCat' is a rich imbecile surrounded by like-minded rich imbeciles.

Al-bert

8th Apr 2017, 09:10

https://gosint.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/former-dia-colonel-us-strikes-on-a-syria-based-on-a-lie/

"It should also alarm American taxpayers that we launched $100 million dollars of missiles to blow up sand and camel ****."

just sayin..:eek:

Pontius Navigator

8th Apr 2017, 09:15

MJB, a quick glimpse on broadcast video showed what appeared to be an impact crater to the top of the shelter suggesting penetration before detonation.

Pontius Navigator

8th Apr 2017, 09:19

Imagegear - just a shame that the 'TopCat' is a rich imbecile surrounded by like-minded rich imbeciles.

Who just happened to win the election.

On your political scale there will be dozens of cats in the world.

racedo

8th Apr 2017, 10:02

I'm sure that the list of "mice" would include: Russia, North Korea, Iran, Turkey, China and any number of minor rogue states

So is a rogue state one that threatens and invades another country ?

Buster Hyman

8th Apr 2017, 10:11

Sorry if I'm covering old ground but, 59 Tomahawks? Are that many needed to disable an airbase? (Genuinely don't know)

Also, what is the use by date on a Tomahawk...if you get my drift...

TEEEJ

8th Apr 2017, 12:20

MJB, a quick glimpse on broadcast video showed what appeared to be an impact crater to the top of the shelter suggesting penetration before detonation.

Sputnik news agency have released a series of images from the base. Looks like some of the Tomahawks used were the TACTOM variant with the penetrating warhead? At lease one image shows the inside of one of the shelters with a hole in the roof. Obviously one shelter didn't receive a strike and the two Su-22 Fitters inside survived.

Sputnik Images media library :: Gallery (http://sputnikimages.com/en/site/gallery/index/id/3067972/context/%7B%22q%22%3A%22Voskresenskiy%22%2C%22field%22%3A%22author%2 2%2C%22orientation%22%3A%22all%22%7D/)

See gallery.

Sputnik Images media library :: Search (http://sputnikimages.com/en/site/search/?startfrom=0&q=Voskresenskiy&field=author)

Archive footage of Shayrat Airbase from April 2016. Fitters and Floggers based there.

FaklRH9K9mU&feature=related

gr4techie

8th Apr 2017, 12:53

Obviously one shelter didn't receive a strike and the two Su-22 Fitters inside survived.

Could be an old photo or they could have towed the SU-22 Fitters inside the shelters afterwards.

SASless

8th Apr 2017, 13:03

Recent news suggest there is 500 Billion Dollars Fraud and Waste in the US HUD Department.....just saying!

Yes....that is Five Hundred Thousand Million Dollars......and you think the Taxpayers give a second thought the cost of sixty cruise missiles used in this attack?

https://gosint.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/former-dia-colonel-us-strikes-on-a-syria-based-on-a-lie/

just sayin..:eek:

Al-bert

8th Apr 2017, 13:42

Recent news suggest there is 500 Billion Dollars Fraud and Waste in the US HUD Department.....just saying!

Yes....that is Five Hundred Thousand Million Dollars......and you think the Taxpayers give a second thought the cost of sixty cruise missiles used in this attack?

So what do you make of this Former DIA Colonel Patrick Lang, SASless?

Al-bert

8th Apr 2017, 13:55

:} Of course, everyone will have seen this movie, including Trumpton?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KFwXDYhG3w

Pontius Navigator

8th Apr 2017, 14:03

TEEJ, thanks, those would be from the video I saw. Just an aside on runway interdiction.

In the Falklands the aim was runway denial.
In GW 1 the aim was to pin the aircraft down to allow them to be plinked.
In GW 2 runway interdiction was not necessary as aircraft could be plinked before they could launch.

The best counter air is kill the crews. Next best, but easier, is kill the aircraft.

SASless

8th Apr 2017, 14:30

Al-Bert,

Lang's credentials are very impressive and he should know what he is talking about.

That being said....without knowing far more about him it is impossible to evaluate his position on issues.

I would suggest our involvement in the areas he was responsible for reporting upon has not been what could be described as a stellar success has it?

I have said in the past some huge mistakes were made.....using a single Source to base a plan of action, failing to field sufficient forces after the invasion, and then dis-banding the Iraqi Military, Police, and Government.

That was a genuine recipe for failure.....copied from WWII and the treatment of the Germans. Even Patton saw the folly of that back then.

Lyneham Lad

8th Apr 2017, 14:46

Peter Brookes's cartoon in The Times today.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C84yoPvXkAAMe-l.jpg:med

No surprises there, then! :eek:

Al-bert

8th Apr 2017, 15:25

Fonsini

8th Apr 2017, 15:51

Funny how during the Obama presidency the American press reported that the "United States bombs 5 Muslim nations".

But read the papers today and they will tell you that "Trump Attacks Syria".

That cartoon of the Pentagon being responsible for the decisions versus Trump making them individually shows the exact same mentality - Trump is behind everything. We saw a similar press mindset during the Bush administration, but this time it's verging on an obsession.

Personally I have always believed that presidents do exactly what they are told.

Al-bert

8th Apr 2017, 16:16

Personally I have always believed that presidents do exactly what they are told.

Yep, that's democracy for you! :hmm:

Pontius Navigator

8th Apr 2017, 16:41

Fonsini, I take it you are not so ex-pat that you missed Yes Prime Minister.

Lonewolf_50

8th Apr 2017, 19:21

Fonsini

8th Apr 2017, 19:41

Fonsini, I take it you are not so ex-pat that you missed Yes Prime Minister.

As a former civil servant I have seen more than my fair share of "Humphreys". I once had a Surveyor (Senior Executive Officer) who went into near apoplexy because I took a taxi while on assignment in London, cost 5 pounds - the reason - I dared to pay for it myself instead of claiming it on my expenses, which I was not entitled to do because I was only carrying one suitcase and not 2, as stipulated by regulations.

So he was angry because I was supposed to claim it so he could then reject the claim.

Bureaucracy at its finest.

SASless

8th Apr 2017, 19:47

You are free to believe what you wish.....be it fantasy or not!

If the good Col is to be believed, this latest Trumperation wasn't a mistake but a pre-planned deception nichts war?

flash8

8th Apr 2017, 20:06

But if the US ships would attack the Russian base, where IADS is really deployed and operated by right people, the result would be different, but there is a great probability that millions would not wake up this morning. Good night.

Along those lines... I can't understand how the missiles managed to avoid certain parts of the base where the Russians resided. Who the heck knows where they were during the operation and the projectile accuracy.

Worries me that there could have been Russian casualties and that takes the game to an entirely new and unreal level.

Either Trump is extremely clever or very naive, if the former one suspects that we aren't viewing the whole picture and that he possibly could have been working with the Russians all along, if the latter deeply worrying, and I thought Bush was a cowboy.

KenV

8th Apr 2017, 21:59

Worries me that there could have been Russian casualties and that takes the game to an entirely new and unreal level.Ummmmmm, the US informed the Russians of the attack hours before the attack, including the base that was being targeted. The Russians had ample time to get their folks out of harms way. No "cowboy" antics here.

And incidentally, the Russians could have warned the Syrian Air Force who could then have evacuated their aircraft. But they did not. The Russians also made no attempts to shoot down the missiles.

KenV

8th Apr 2017, 22:25

Sorry if I'm covering old ground but, 59 Tomahawks? Are that many needed to disable an airbase? (Genuinely don't know).

Here's the target tally we know about:
15 concrete aircraft parking revetments
10 aircraft maintenance hangars/buildings
10 anti aircraft defense sites
7 fuel storage/pumping facilities
10 ammunition bunkers
That's 52 specific targets we know about. Some targets (like large hangars) may have had more than one missile targeted at it.

And for those nitwits who complain about the cost of those missiles, each aircraft destroyed cost 20 to 50 times the cost of the missile. 20 aircraft were destroyed. The hangars, maintenance buildings, fuel facilities, ammunition facilities, aircraft revetments, etc etc almost certainly cost way more than the missiles. Those missiles got a LOT of bang for the bucks spent.

flash8

8th Apr 2017, 22:56

each aircraft destroyed cost 20 to 50 times the cost of the missile.

Six ancient Floggers?

TEEEJ

8th Apr 2017, 23:55

Six ancient Floggers?

Not just MiG-23s but also Su-22s.

Fitter undercarriage in one of the targeted shelters.

Sputnik Images media library :: Gallery (http://sputnikimages.com/en/site/gallery/index/id/3067812/context/%7B%22q%22%3A%22Voskresenskiy%22%2C%22field%22%3A%22author%2 2%2C%22orientation%22%3A%22all%22%7D/#3067967)

Reference link

http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/luc_colin3/su-22m4_fitter/images/su-22m4_fitter_028_of_145.jpg

Fitter tail in targeted shelter

Sputnik Images media library :: Gallery (http://sputnikimages.com/en/site/gallery/index/id/3067812/context/%7B%22q%22%3A%22Voskresenskiy%22%2C%22field%22%3A%22author%2 2%2C%22orientation%22%3A%22all%22%7D/#3067810)

Reference link

http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/luc_colin3/su-22m4_fitter/images/su-22m4_fitter_072_of_145.jpg

TEEEJ

9th Apr 2017, 00:11

Photo #3067785 seems to show that something got through the roof of a bunker.
Not sure how that news agency (Sputnik) got those photographs, nor their date ... (http://sputnikimages.com/en/site/gallery/index/id/3067972/context/%7B%22q%22%3A%22Voskresenskiy%22%2C%22field%22%3A%22author%2 2%2C%22orientation%22%3A%22all%22%7D/)..

Looks like the work of a Tactical Tomahawk (TACTOM) variant with the penetrating warhead.

See at 1:30 and from 1:37.

TGvIZTosVTQ&feature=related

The Sultan

9th Apr 2017, 00:48

Bottom line is base back up in less than 24 hours and back to bombing hospitals and killing civilians. A Wag the Dog operation to boost Trumpet's pathetic approval numbers.

Fonsini

9th Apr 2017, 01:26

This thread is rich in tinfoil.

Rhino power

9th Apr 2017, 02:08

And for those nitwits who complain about the cost of those missiles, each aircraft destroyed cost 20 to 50 times the cost of the missile...

Er, no... Obsolete MiG-23's and SU-22's do not cost '20 to 50' times the amount of one TLAM!

-RP

West Coast

9th Apr 2017, 04:11

What's the price of an equivelant replacement from the Russians?

Pontius Navigator

9th Apr 2017, 07:39

Bottom line is base back up in less than 24 hours and back to bombing hospitals and killing civilians. A Wag the Dog operation to boost Trumpet's pathetic approval numbers.

As s the runways were not targeted that is true. Repairing the aircraft in the shelters might take a little longer. I think you will find the orbat is a bit reduced.

As I said earlier, the most effective counter air program is kill the aircrew. To do that would pose a politically high risk of collateral casualties which makes the aircraft and facilities the next best thing.

It they wanted to close the airfield two sticks of bombs along each runway would do the trick but for cost effectiveness you would need one or two B2.

Lyneham Lad

9th Apr 2017, 10:45

I find it ironic that Trump is mired in inactivity on the home front where he can't enact much of his election promises but has taken action he indicated he wouldn't take in the only sphere where he has free reign as Commander in Chief.

But does he / should he have free rein? ISTR that President Obama tried to take action on Libya but could not get the agreement of Congress necessary to take those actions. On that basis, shouldn't President Trump also have sought Congress approval rather than make a unilateral decision to launch missiles?

beardy

9th Apr 2017, 10:50

I suppose he felt that he could be blocked and frustrated, again.

Pontius Navigator

9th Apr 2017, 11:11

LL, I don't believe Clinton was so inhibited. He launched cruise missiles against Somalia on 20 Aug 1998. Coincidentally he also submitted testimony to the grand jury 3 days earlier.

TEEEJ

9th Apr 2017, 13:53

Another video showing aftermath of the airstrike. More footage of shelters with roof holes from the Tomahawks. The remains of the aircraft shown are MiG-23s. Extensive damage to weapons storage areas.

LfWcXkgyzio&feature=related

A_Van

9th Apr 2017, 14:57

I wonder if he is now going to cut the north korean mad shorty further down? Is it a coincidence that after he talked to the Chinese commy boss "CVN-70 & Co" started moving north?

BEagle

9th Apr 2017, 16:39

AnglianAV8R

9th Apr 2017, 18:30

If American intelligence (that well-known oxymoron) has 100% proof that the Sarin was dropped by the Syrian air force, then the TLAM attack was justly deserved.

But was it? Where is the clear and unambiguous proof?

However, if the Russian version is correct, namely that the Syrian air force bombed a rebel installation which was producing chemical weapons, then that swivel-eyed imbecile has a lot of questions to answer.

Well, some of the media coverage of this alleged airstrike shows 'White Helmets' dealing with casualties. They are shown wearing industrial dust filter masks and no gloves, handling casualties.... Absolute folly if it were sarin.

The location appears to be a 'depot' of sorts and is probably also used by the extremist fighters. So, there is good reason to suspect that any CB agents may have been in the hands of these rebels and a hit by conventional munitions from the air or artillery resulted in the contamination.

The White Helmets have been 'outed' using the same girl as a casualty in different bombings and also using what are believed to be dummies. They are funded by Western interests and are closely associated with extremist fighters too.

Alternatively, we can trust our media who describe the alleged Syrian air strike as absolute fact, whilst failing to proffer any evidence.

ShotOne

9th Apr 2017, 20:19

exECMO

9th Apr 2017, 20:54

SASless,
An eon ago, I was a mission commander for a Red Flag push which, along with a panoply of other 40-50 other players, included Harriers of 1(F) Sqn. About halfway through the mission-planning circus, one of the GR7 pilots momentarily lost his composure with me over a questionable element of my plan. Apparently in the interest of diplomacy, he then caught himself and immediately apologized.

He needn't have apologized, because, after all, he was the one who had to fly the plan on NVGs...and at about 300 ft lower than me. I was asking someone to join me on my strike, it was therefore *my* responsibility to be a credible leader - and it would've been irresponsible of him not to call me on it. My point is simply this: I think our RAF/RN/RAAF colleagues can and should critique and evaluate our operational plans and actions – harshly, if necessary. I welcome it, as there’s little room for ego in effective strategy.

Herod

9th Apr 2017, 20:56

Isn't it just possible that the intelligence services know considerably more than they are putting in the public domain, for us to argue over?

racedo

9th Apr 2017, 22:44

The alternative explanation is these were rebel stocks blown up by conventional attack. The rebels have stated they would never use poison gas. Which is believable as they have no means of delivery and using it would instantly strip them of support and sympathy. So why would they have a stockpile a) at all, b) unprotected in the midst of a crowded civilian area?

And those loveable cuddly rebels are really friendly with their Christian and Non Sunni Muslim neighbours, they haven't killed and chopped heads off of thousands, butchered whomever refuses to join them.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/world/middleeast/isis-chemical-weapons-syria-iraq-mosul.html

PressTV-Saudi chemical weapons agents found in Aleppo (http://presstv.ir/Detail/2017/01/11/505784/Syria-Aleppo-Saudi-Arabia-chemical-weapons)

PressTV-Russia confirms militants gassing Aleppo (http://presstv.ir/Detail/2016/11/14/493569/Russia-Aleppo-militants-chemicals)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhlMSgGK-zA

A_Van

10th Apr 2017, 04:44

Adding a couple of paras to the previous posts by Racedo and TEEJ:

All this footage above shows that syrian military and correspondents freely walk through all the facilities totally destroyed by the strike, including the ammunition and bomb/missile storage (blown up) shortly after the strike happened.
If there were chemical weapons there, nobody would do so without special suits. Thus, obviously there were no such stuff there. While the main reason for the strike, as it was announced, was to destroy that particular site where the Assad's planes with chemical bombs operated from
Don't you think all this sounds a bit inconsistent?

By the way, in one of the above videos a long-beard guy in a unform says that obviously it was the "Nusra front" (part or associate of Al-Qaeda) who blew up the chemicals and then staged all this tragic show in order to trigger the coalition strike in just a day or two, without any real investigation.

And again, comparing with Iraq: it took about a week after the coalition strike killed 200-300 civilians (some 3 weeks ago) for the media to start asking the DoD and State dept officials who, in turn, were muttering something like "it looks like we might be involved", "we will investigate", "it was not our fault", etc. Here in Syria, even no attempt to investigate. Al-Qaeda seems to be a trustworthy source of information.

No doubt Assad is a bad guy and should be taken away. But at least the current regime is secular and there is a common groud to talk, without "holy wars" and other religious stuff. Why not to take away first all those various jihadists and then replace this bloody Assad?

West Coast

10th Apr 2017, 05:23

No doubt Assad is a bad guy and should be taken away. But at least the current regime is secular and there is a common groud to talk, without "holy wars"

Sorry Van, but Assad being marginally Secular doesn't provide a basis for communication anymore than talking to the NORKs as they are largely secular as well. I believe I saw a documentary that mentioned that one of the sanctioned churches of NK recognizes the fat one and his lineage as one of their gods.

Just This Once...

10th Apr 2017, 06:15

All this footage above shows that syrian military and correspondents freely walk through all the facilities totally destroyed by the strike, including the ammunition and bomb/missile storage (blown up) shortly after the strike happened.
If there were chemical weapons there, nobody would do so without special suits. Thus, obviously there were no such stuff there. While the main reason for the strike, as it was announced, was to destroy that particular site where the Assad's planes with chemical bombs operated from
Don't you think all this sounds a bit inconsistent?

Nice try, but no. The US made a deliberate precision attack on conventional weapon facilities - potentially releasing chemical agents was far from their intent. Using your own discriminator the absence of 'special suits' indicates that the US strike achieved their aim.

Incidentally I agree that the absence of CBRN equipment is significant. If the Russian or Syrian forces really did believe that the opposition did have the means to obtain, distribute, weaponise and deliver chemical weapons against them then the carrying and wearing of protective equipment by Russian & Syrian troops would be a matter of routine.

I'm not sure if you are an independent thinker or not as your logic always gets nudged in the wrong direction.

ORAC

10th Apr 2017, 07:25

If they only had TLAM available, then didn't have any warheads suitable for destroying CW - that would require something like a thermobaric warhead.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a8497/how-the-us-could-take-out-syrias-chemical-weapons-14826307/

AW&ST:

Pentagon officials say all 59 Raytheon-built Tomahawk Land Attack Missiles fired against a Syria’s Shayrat airfield on April 7 reached their intended targets and the 60th was waved off. One missile failed, but another was launched in its place. A surface-to-air missile site, radar and about 20 aircraft plus various ammunition bunkers and suspected chemical weapon storage facilities were damaged or destroyed in the attack. That is the assessment of the U.S. Defense Department. Speaking to the media at the Pentagon, two officials involved in the mission who declined to be named said the late-night naval strike was executed with 100% accuracy. “We’re very positive that 59 missiles hit,” they said.........

Russia was told in advance that the strike would occur, and Moscow’s regional air defense systems did not react to the passing Tomahawks. The Syrian-owned, Soviet-made surface-to-air missile system defending the base appeared to be no match for the agile, low-flying Tomahawk and was wrecked........

Preparations for the Tomahawk bombardment began on April 5, when Trump asked Secretary of Defense James Mattis for a menu of military options to respond to the chemical attack reported the day before. It was the largest chemical attack carried out in Syria since the attack on Damascus in 2013 and was made worse by a bomb strike on the local hospital treating the victims. The options, including the precision naval strike, were scrutinized by the National Security Council and presented to the Commander in Chief on April 6. By about 4.30 pm that day, while hosting the Chinese president at the Mar-a-lago resort in Florida, Trump told his generals to execute the Tomahawk plan. Four hours later, Russia was informed about imminent military actions against the airfield and then the USS Porter and USS Ross opened fire.

The ships are assigned to the Sixth Fleet operating from Rota, Spain. They were maneuvered into position the day before and had been awaiting the go-order. Officials say the crews of the Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyers are well practiced at this type of mission. It was assessed to be the military option with the lowest risk to U.S. forces, instead of a strike by manned fighters or bombers.

The missiles impacted their targets in Syria between 3-4 a.m. local time on April 7. Declassified imagery shows the significant blast marks in some targets and dark pinholes through others. U.S. officials say the exact damage is still being assessed, but they are confident that at least 20 aircraft were destroyed and they did not track any aircraft leaving the target area in the four hours after Russia was told. The runway was not targeted because the warheads used would not have been effective..........

Pontius Navigator

10th Apr 2017, 07:31

So A Van scores. CW attacked but no evidence of thermobaric weapon use or chemical residue.

ORAC

10th Apr 2017, 08:09

Not really. The Syrians wouldn't store such weapons on an airbase, they have/had specialised CW depots. Any used would be delivered specifically for a mission - especially since they were all supposed to have been handed over and destroyed.

Just This Once...

10th Apr 2017, 08:25

Agreed and to add that in the off-chance that they were reckless enough to leave sarin on-base the risk of exposure the following day would be incredibly small or nonexistent. Sarin is a volatile gas and not a persistent agent.

tartare

10th Apr 2017, 08:33

Yes - I thought it was absolutely lethal - but also dispersed very quickly.
Check out the Twitter feed of Jeffrey Lewis at arms control wonk... a lot of detail on Sarin versus containers seen at Sharyat.

Pontius Navigator

10th Apr 2017, 09:17

ORAC, I agree it is logical to keep such lethal devices away from your other facilities but I refer to the article you quoted, 'suspected chemical weapon storage facilities', so either they did and the Syrians kept stum as they didn't want to admit it, or they didn't.

Either way the US could have shown post-strike imagery.

ORAC

10th Apr 2017, 09:24

Pontius - they did.

Satellite images show before, after US strikes on Syrian base | FOX31 Denver (http://kdvr.com/2017/04/07/satellite-images-show-before-after-us-strikes-on-syrian-base/)

Satellite images show before/after of US missile strikes on Syrian air base | Q13 FOX News (http://q13fox.com/2017/04/07/satellite-images-show-beforeafter-of-us-missile-strikes-on-syrian-air-base/)

Pontius Navigator

10th Apr 2017, 10:05

ORAC, and identified as the chemical weapons storage facilities.

Jolihokistix link below shows how a successful attack on the chemical weapons storage would not have released Satin gas as it is essentially a binary weapon. Hence little need for protective clothing.

jolihokistix

10th Apr 2017, 10:15

Rare opposite point of view, from Russia, worth a read.
The chemical brothers: Putin and Assad | Russia | Al Jazeera (http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2017/04/chemical-brothers-putin-assad-170408131056190.html)

The Nip

10th Apr 2017, 13:16

Isn't it just possible that the intelligence services know considerably more than they are putting in the public domain, for us to argue over?

Further to your point, the governments, through intelligence services, put out exactly the information they want us to know and believe.

It is getting more difficult to know who to believe.

flash8

10th Apr 2017, 14:44

In my mind the most fascinating part of this whole affair is the refusal of arguably the majority of the public in the West to actually believe the MSM and the liberal narrative.

Twenty years ago people would nod in meek acceptance whatever was fed to them, today however it seems that taking the opposite position of a view presented by the MSM is the norm. Personally I think the whole episode stinks, too many loose ends and a presented narrative that just doesn't hold up to more than mild scrutiny. The strike did however push the Neocons such as McCain into orgasmic frenzy complimenting Trump as if he were a long time buddy returning home.

However over at Brietbart the Trump supporters on the whole are pretty pissed with him, if he continues down this path one suspects his support will seep pretty rapidly.

ORAC

10th Apr 2017, 15:27

If Assad thinks he's making a point, I'd suggest he find a deeper bunker.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/world/assad-regime-drops-thermite-bombs-on-rebel-province-fklmrlnhg

https://feeds.thetimes.co.uk/web/imageserver/imageserver/image/methode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2Fc567be4e-1dce-11e7-ab8a-bed946da5aa3.jpg?crop=840,472,16,30&resize=1200

Several towns in Syria’s rebel-controlled Idlib province have been hit with incendiary weapons as President Assad and his allies step up their bombing campaign after last week’s nerve gas attacks.

Multiple witnesses recorded mobile phone footage of fierce fires burning in the town of Saraqeb yesterday evening. The bright white burning plumes of the missiles which started the blazes suggest that they were either white phosphorus or thermite bombs. Other footage shows the evening sky lit up by the inferno caused by the missiles. The local opposition radio station Fresh FM reported that Russian jets had dropped two incendiary missiles on the northern outskirts of the town.

Assad and his allies have intensified their attacks on Idlib, the last pocket of rebel territory in northern Syria, and other opposition-held areas in the south of the country since last week’s chemical attack on the town of Khan Sheikhoun, which is in Idlib. Apparently undeterred by President Trump’s cruise missile strike on the Shayrat airbase, they launched a wave of bombing raids over the weekend that killed dozens of civilians.

Thermite, which burns at 3,000 degrees centigrade and is almost impossible to extinguish, sticks to the skin and can reach the bone in seconds.

The use of both white phosphorus and thermite in civilian areas is prohibited by a 1980 convention, although they can be deployed as smokescreens on the battlefield. Russia, originally as the Soviet Union, is a signatory, although Syria is not; however, there is evidence that both parties have deployed the weapons in opposition areas.

In December Human Rights Watch reported that there had been an increase in Russia and the Syrian regime’s use of incendiary weapons over the past year, with 18 attacks in Aleppo and Idlib provinces between June and August 2016. The report noted that “for at least a few weeks in mid-2016, incendiary weapons were used on a near daily basis in opposition-held areas”.

DroneDog

10th Apr 2017, 16:02

Did the west not intervene and remove all the chemical weapons from Assad's forces.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/removal-of-chemical-weapons-from-syria-is-completed-1403529356

Did he buy new supplies, if so from where, eBay?

I prefer this explanation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVevIuIRuok

?v=pVevIuIRuok

A_Van

10th Apr 2017, 16:32

CWs are spread across Middle East since the times when Gaddafi was removed, the country of Lybia bombed by "freedom bringers" and chaos started ruling there.

Some URLs (not Russian :-) :

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2016/01/28/former-libyan-intel-chief-isis-has-qaddafis-chemical-weapons/

http://www.timesofisrael.com/libyan-chemical-weapons-seized-by-extremists/

In a similar way, the Syrian "opposition" seized some CWs from the government before the campaign started to eliminate them (CWs) under the UN (or likes) control.

Every now and then we read the reports that various CWs (some are released quite primitively) are used in Syria and Iraq. Thus, linking automatically any sign of their use to a single party (e.g. the Syrian regime) is just not correct. None of the party can be excluded, but a thorough and independent investigation should be performed before throwing Tomahawks. Again, US is still "investigating" about 200 dead civilians in Mosul 3 weeks ago, in the area which is under their control now, but as for Idlib everything "became clear" in a few minutes.

So, where are the evidences about which chemicals were used in Idlib and by whom?

Clowns and professional provocators such as "white helmets", Coventry based "Syrian observatory" and likes do not count.