Here it comes: Syria
Whatever the political f**c*wits try to say, I would suggest that no one, no one will believe any talk of Weapons of most distraction etc etc. Bliar at least ensured that politicians can no longer use the "intelligence" excuse. I saw a comment in a newspaper report on this today where someone suggested that before committing military resources all politicians and top level military should sign a legally binding agreement that, if found to be a false claim (the weapons of mass distraction) they will accept being sent to the War Crimes Tribunal for judgement. Personally I would be happy with a punishment for falsity being double tap from a Hereford hooligan. Obviously this could divert attention from the parlous state of our country.
Smudge
Smudge
"Growing evidence of weapons of mass destruction" - oops, sorry, I mean chemical weapons 
I'm well out of it, as thankfully is my son who has recently become a civilian but on behalf of our armed forces I pray that we stay well out of this mess.
I'm well out of it, as thankfully is my son who has recently become a civilian but on behalf of our armed forces I pray that we stay well out of this mess.
I would think we are still a long way off from doing anything. Kofi Anan has already said there is no military solution in Syria and despite their insistence that the use of WMD would constitute a 'red line' even Obama is being massively cautious and making oblique references to the Iraq debacle, after which it will take a hell of a lot more than the intelligence community declaring because we said so. That said, there has always been a conflict between the Spooks and the politicians and the later's use of what could be very nuanced intelligence reporting for blunt political purposes, so any argument between the Spooks and politicians could well degenerate into he said she said.
IMHO, the context of any alleged use rather than the actual use will be what acts as a trigger. If it can be proven that the Regime has ordered a strike, that is one thing. However, proving that conclusively will be very difficult. It could well be a case of a rogue commander at a local level making a decision on his own initiative. Or it could be a case of Syrian logistics not being up to par, with mixed stockpiles, poor record keeping, old weapons with markings that have become obscured all contributing to an inadvertent firing of CW rounds when Ahmed was told to break open a box, take said round and fire in a given direction.
Until you can prove the first of those without any doubt and can conclusively discount the other 2 contexts, then nobody in their right minds would get involved in a civil war on the grounds of alleged WMD use.
IMHO, the context of any alleged use rather than the actual use will be what acts as a trigger. If it can be proven that the Regime has ordered a strike, that is one thing. However, proving that conclusively will be very difficult. It could well be a case of a rogue commander at a local level making a decision on his own initiative. Or it could be a case of Syrian logistics not being up to par, with mixed stockpiles, poor record keeping, old weapons with markings that have become obscured all contributing to an inadvertent firing of CW rounds when Ahmed was told to break open a box, take said round and fire in a given direction.
Until you can prove the first of those without any doubt and can conclusively discount the other 2 contexts, then nobody in their right minds would get involved in a civil war on the grounds of alleged WMD use.
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Errrr didn't we used to treat in the UK and learn how to treat Saddams Kurds that he'd used all sorts of nasties on, I remember seeing the films of nerve and blister agents. Odd how the world seemed to sit on its hands then, at least one thing has changed for the better if it is now seen as a step to far.
Last edited by NutLoose; 26th Apr 2013 at 21:54.
My Lord Melchett
With respect to your argument, I would dare to proffer that the Bliar and Bush personages, never, had problems with fabricating myths to embolden their claims to greater knowledge. Embellished by the churlish Campbell no doubt. Regardless, why do we have any interest in this internecine mish mash of disingenuous and ill suited characters ? I suspect this is the current governments "distraction" from its inability to look after our own country. In 10 years time we will regret becoming involved and, how many civilian and British servicemens deaths is this all worth ? Sorry if its a bit on the serious side, but this sh1t is serious!
Smudge
With respect to your argument, I would dare to proffer that the Bliar and Bush personages, never, had problems with fabricating myths to embolden their claims to greater knowledge. Embellished by the churlish Campbell no doubt. Regardless, why do we have any interest in this internecine mish mash of disingenuous and ill suited characters ? I suspect this is the current governments "distraction" from its inability to look after our own country. In 10 years time we will regret becoming involved and, how many civilian and British servicemens deaths is this all worth ? Sorry if its a bit on the serious side, but this sh1t is serious!
Smudge
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Get the Atropine out....................or not
I'm seeing reports of people supposedly affected by Sarin having dilated pupils.
It's a long time since I did GDT but I seem to remember that one of the symptoms of nerve agent poisoning is contracted pupils. I don't understand why someone hasn't pointed that out. Perhaps it doesn't matter, chemical warfare might be chemical warfare, but maybe touting the use of Sarin is meant to hit a nerve!
It's a long time since I did GDT but I seem to remember that one of the symptoms of nerve agent poisoning is contracted pupils. I don't understand why someone hasn't pointed that out. Perhaps it doesn't matter, chemical warfare might be chemical warfare, but maybe touting the use of Sarin is meant to hit a nerve!
I give you three words only, Dr David Kelly RiP
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Fact: There are 196 countries on earth.
Why must the UK be Sherriff every time someone kicks off?
It must be because we can afford to!
What with all those pay rises the military have had in recent years.
It is time someone in a suit in London accepted that we are no more then a Defence Force with a Nuclear card left over from a different era hidden in our back pocket and that we should limit our games to a home front scenario.
Why must the UK be Sherriff every time someone kicks off?
It must be because we can afford to!
What with all those pay rises the military have had in recent years.
It is time someone in a suit in London accepted that we are no more then a Defence Force with a Nuclear card left over from a different era hidden in our back pocket and that we should limit our games to a home front scenario.
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Ever wondered where Syria got their chemical weapons from?
If anyone wants to reply with cut and pastes from their favourite media outlet, please be aware that an equal number of journals will have a contrary view.
If anyone wants to reply with cut and pastes from their favourite media outlet, please be aware that an equal number of journals will have a contrary view.
Captain Radar,
Pinpoint pupils for nerve agent, indeed yes. But those casualties had been treated with atropine, which has the opposite effect. I was once treated with atropine and the effect is fully dilated pupils, complete inability if the eye to accommodate to bright light or to focus. And the effects of atropine poisoning can last a very long time, depending on dosage.
There is another important feature of sarin, once manufactured, it has a very short shelf life. It is easy to store as two component chemicals, which can be mixed to create sarin ready for use. That involves either deliberately mixing sarin and loading it into a weapon or using a binary weapon which does the mixing when used - e.g. a shell that mixes the two components when fired.
Does Syria own binary CW?
If not, this probably wasn't someone taking an existing weapon out of long term storage - there is no arsenal of sarin shells left over from the Cold War.
Pinpoint pupils for nerve agent, indeed yes. But those casualties had been treated with atropine, which has the opposite effect. I was once treated with atropine and the effect is fully dilated pupils, complete inability if the eye to accommodate to bright light or to focus. And the effects of atropine poisoning can last a very long time, depending on dosage.
There is another important feature of sarin, once manufactured, it has a very short shelf life. It is easy to store as two component chemicals, which can be mixed to create sarin ready for use. That involves either deliberately mixing sarin and loading it into a weapon or using a binary weapon which does the mixing when used - e.g. a shell that mixes the two components when fired.
Does Syria own binary CW?
If not, this probably wasn't someone taking an existing weapon out of long term storage - there is no arsenal of sarin shells left over from the Cold War.
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 27th Apr 2013 at 10:10.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
It as been pointed out to me that one of the 'casualties' calmly stretched with his arms above his head and crossed his legs.
The other, also repeated over the last 3 days, purportedly shows a casualty being intubated. Apparently the patient should be unconscious and his head tipped as far back as it will go to get the tube in. We didn't see that, nor did we see if it was a short make believe tube or a proper one.
If the evidence is there why do we only see the same clip on every bulletin?
The other, also repeated over the last 3 days, purportedly shows a casualty being intubated. Apparently the patient should be unconscious and his head tipped as far back as it will go to get the tube in. We didn't see that, nor did we see if it was a short make believe tube or a proper one.
If the evidence is there why do we only see the same clip on every bulletin?
Who used it is still debatable.
What "it" is is being asserted as sarin.
Thin.
Oh, and just what is to be done?
I note that China and Russia are not keen on intervention.
What "it" is is being asserted as sarin.
Thin.
Oh, and just what is to be done?
I note that China and Russia are not keen on intervention.
PN, someone who is intubated is quite capable in the right situation to tolerate having an endotracheal tube (ET) in their trachea and be quite wide awake and able to communicate by gestures, writing or by asking the right question. The dubious bit is that its not connected to anything, so why is he intubated? As you suggest this could be like the Libyan TV report where a supposedly badly injured man did a Lazerus when he thought the camera was off him.
Last edited by air pig; 27th Apr 2013 at 15:57.