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gorter 27th Feb 2015 20:16

Originally Posted by brian_dromey (Post 8883172)
New aircraft have technical problems too.

Not as many and certainly not as complicated/confusing

Oh and for the spotters out there when I left the big announcement was going to be whether the company were going to order new Airbus or new Boeing. The executive director was supposedly seen in Seattle and Airbus were seen plodding around euroway trading estate several times with tape measures.

Sean Dillon 27th Feb 2015 20:53

Spot on Gorter! In-excess of 40 pilots have resigned/left this company since the end of Summer 2014, and more are to follow. Despite the "spin" from HR, recruitment is not going to plan! This isn't a career airline, and is quite some years off, if ever without a senior management change...it's not a happy place to be!

Jet2_738, whilst appreciating your just an enthusiast, this airline is one of the worst in the UK for a number of very important reasons as an Airliner World reader you just wouldn't understand! And your old aircraft theory is nonsense - I was in the same room when the CEO declared "I know these aircraft are costing us money and something needs to be done..."

If new aircraft are indeed been bought, I'd be scared as to where the pound foolish culture will strike next, as this company doesn't have that sort of financial reserves.

Lord Spandex Masher 28th Feb 2015 00:19

Originally Posted by gorter (Post 8883183)
Not as many and certainly not as complicated/confusing

As much as there have been many generalisations in the last few posts I'd be willing to stake my not insignificant pension on me proving you wrong.

Big Tudor 28th Feb 2015 02:09

Good work Sean Dillon. Exceeding even your own best efforts by being wrong twice in one paragraph. But hey, don't be letting facts get in the way of a good story.

SWBKCB 28th Feb 2015 06:35

being humiliated by having to pay a charter airline to pick up the pieces
Classic! what on earth does this mean?

JB007 28th Feb 2015 07:42

Surely, having aircraft that you own parked up, is a good thing
And that is the biggest load of tosh I've ever read!

gorter 28th Feb 2015 08:00

As much as there have been many generalisations in the last few posts I'd be willing to stake my not insignificant pension on me proving you wrong.
Unfortunately for your pension I doubt you can. If you want to use reputable scientific sources then I can provide just as many to disprove you. If you use internal data then you are providing company sensitive information to someone who doesn't work for the company. That'll bring you in to the highly efficient disciplinary system (GDF used to mean grounded disciplined fired to the pilot workforce when I was there) and then you really can kiss your pension goodbye.

I very much remember the very weird and wonderful faults at the start of last summer which would delay us for hours and have the engineers saying "I've never seen that before" or "that shouldn't happen". No real skin off my nose because it meant I could finally catch up on some sleep after the umpteenth roster change that week.

And as to parking up aircraft for extended periods of time. Just ask any crew that has flown an aircraft that hasn't moved in a few days (particularly if it's been raining) how much they love it. Parking up an aircraft even for a few days does it no favours.

And I believe it's Titan that have been called in to cover the A330 and we all know how cheap Titan are, particularly when you call them at the last minute!

And as to the 40 pilots resigning these last few months. In my personal opinion that is an under estimation. When I last saw one of the former managers at euroway he told me it was around 20 in November alone.

Lord Spandex Masher 28th Feb 2015 10:24

Gorter, I'd actually use my experience of flying two brand new types before I moved to Jet2.

fa2fi 28th Feb 2015 10:50

Yes, I am one of the tiny proportion of real professional pilots who come in here.

I honestly can't tell the difference between your standard EZY or Jet2 flight. It's buy on board, no entertainment (apart from boarding music on LS), pay for bags, pay for seat assignment, pay for extra legroom. They're both very much LCCs with little to tell them apart. If I was on a LS flight sitting in my pleatherette seat and I closed my eyes, I honestly couldn't tell the difference. LS are good at what they do, but to make out they're something special is a bit short sighted.

EZY has a very diverse route structure with flights ranging from 15 mins to almost six hours. It also has a diverse customer range: commuters and business folk as well as holidaymakers wether they be through easyJet holidays or one of the package operators who have block booked on their flights in the past or make up a DIY package of their own. EZY also do charters to Lappland and Northern Lights flights as well as the Fearless Flyer courses, so they do have a diverse flying programme. They also have the FLEX and Plus products to keep their high yielding regulars happy with further product enhancements in the pipeline. This is why EJ (and FR) actually fly in winter. I don't recall ever seeing 6-7 easyJet craft laid up in winter. However I have seen this with Jet2 in EDI and a few in NCL.

Jet2 certainly don't cover a larger range of the market (if you strip out the NYC weekenders). Yes EZY don't have the NYC trips but LS just do a handful of those a year. A majority of the work they do is bucket and spade 'there and backs' with little night stopping in summer. They're just like any other LCC as a whole, with a couple of ad hocs in winter.

A plane is a plane to me mate. Having only flown Airbus it is what I am more familiar with and can discuss. However I don't jump down people's necks when they say they prefer another type. I don't proclaim they are perfect nor do I gloss over their faults and big them up to be something they're not which is an important attitude to have no matter what you fly.

anothertyke 28th Feb 2015 12:05

fa2fi--- broadly agree. I think Jet2 have positioned themselves quite cleverly, filled a few gaps. They've certainly made a difference to Leeds/Bradford. The reason I like them is that the fringe competitors are the heroes of the market system. They are the ones that keep the big boys honest. So I hope Jet2 survive and prosper. At their size they are not in a position to match EZY and RYR in the new purchase market. Nor do they have the year round baseline to their business the big boys do. So to me their business strategy makes a lot of sense provided there is a second hand market and the engineers can keep them going at acceptable cost.

As a passenger having flown them maybe twenty times I find their standards of service comparable to Easyjet which is fine for the markets they serve. My mate who commutes from Amsterdam reckons they are more reliable on that route than KLM. But I wouldn't fancy an 8 hour trip to New York on a Recaro seat myself!

gorter 28th Feb 2015 12:08

Originally Posted by Lord Spandex Masher (Post 8883749)
Gorter, I'd actually use my experience of flying two brand new types before I moved to Jet2.

Oh that kind of "proof" that you'd stake your pension on. I was thinking more of the facts and figures kind you know the one that's actually quantifiable.

Jet2_738 28th Feb 2015 13:31

But I wouldn't fancy an 8 hour trip to New York on a Recaro seat myself!
Nor would many people, but when the price is that much less, people tend to jump for it (mainly those who would have to save up for decades to go normally, but can go, given the price) - and besides, they're not that bad :ok:

They are the ones that keep the big boys honest. So I hope Jet2 survive and prosper.
Agreed - me too! :)

fa2fi 28th Feb 2015 14:09

Actually given the period the NYC flights are the prices are never that much cheaper. It's a lot more convenient to go direct but the prices are not that cheap. I looked last season and it was 950 plus transfers.

Hardly cheap. Certainly more than BA Holidays were. But can you put a price on convenience?

SWBKCB 28th Feb 2015 14:28

Agreed - when you look at the prices BA/KL/AF via their hubs are often cheaper than the direct Jet2 flights, so for the short breaks these are marketed as, it's a choice between price and the convenience/time saving of a direct flight (and also peripherals like miles usage, lounge access, baggage allowances, etc)

Jet2_738 28th Feb 2015 14:58

I hate to speculate, but with the boss being sighted in Seattle, do we not think that this could be the time that Jet2 begins scheduled long haul ops, by maybe purchasing 2 or 3 767-300ER(WL)'s? Given the description at Boeing's Page, does a airliner like the 767-300 not fit in very well with Jet2? I can thhink of a few reasons why this could be:-

- Common Type Rating with that of the 757
- Varied range of missions - packed trunk routes to TFS, ACE, PMI, ALC
- Capability of eight abreast, 2-4-2 (economy recaro seats)
- Possibility of what A330, offered 'extra extra legroom', or business class

In the event of such thing, could we see Jet2 get Acro (who make the slimline seats) to adapt the seats across the 737-800 fleet, some of the 757-200 fleet, (and the 767-300 fleet) so that passengers could still benefit from the economy seats with decent legroom (slimline), but have built in in-flight entertainment systems - look at the link, Acro offer this. This way, Jet2 would still be able to pack the plane right up, still have the lightweight slimline seats with the decent legroom, and please passengers with an in-flight entertainment system in front of them. Surely the addition of in flight entertainment would mean the passengers would be happy sitting in the slimline seats - at the end of the day, they are very comfortable, even for a person like me who is 6ft+.

Could this be the way forward for Jet2 - a future fleet of majoritvely 737-800's, a few 757-200's and some 767-300's?

Ian Brooks 28th Feb 2015 15:14

That`s a big drift, starting sched TA is a big expensive gamble and even if it was the plan I cannot see them using new aircraft as far too expensive
and committed for a long time, more likely a lease for 6 to 12 months to
test the water.


Jet2_738 28th Feb 2015 16:11

Yeah, I suppose so. Maybe if not some brand new 767-300WL's then maybe some in the region of 5-15 years old - given Jet2's successful business model of buying older and saving money. I reckon that if the 757 pilots don't get moved to 737-800 fleet when the time comes, then it would be most logical to move them to a 767-300 fleet - still in production, with the lowest operating costs of any twin aisle airliner, can be packed to bursting and most importantly has ETOPS certification, to best adapt and cover to what the 757 could do. It will be a sad day when we say goodbye to the 757's :{

Lord Spandex Masher 28th Feb 2015 16:22

Originally Posted by gorter (Post 8883830)
Oh that kind of "proof" that you'd stake your pension on. I was thinking more of the facts and figures kind you know the one that's actually quantifiable.

As I made the claim I get to choose how I prove it. I can give you all the quantifiable facts and figures you like but I'm guessing you have something against real life experiences if it doesn't support your side.

gorter 28th Feb 2015 17:16

Jet2 4
That's patently ridiculous. The whole point of proof is to take subjectivity out of a discussion. Otherwise you move in to the realm of ridiculous like homeopathy.

I could throw in that every time I was sat tech last summer and having the brand new easyJet and ryanairs taxying past disproves your point. It doesn't prove anything as it is just my subjective view and goes against yours.

Individual experiences are not proof so I still say your pension is at risk.

CabinCrewe 28th Feb 2015 17:25

This threads really getting drawn out on the back of virtually nothing. Maybe leave it for while until theres something tangible and new

fa2fi 28th Feb 2015 17:46

Yes. I think it is time to give it his thread a miss. It was always very informative and good craic on this thread until Jet2's Minister for Information (Jet2_738) came along.

2Planks 28th Feb 2015 21:28

To be fair to Monsieur 738, there was some heavy criticism of Jet2 from the other side of the fence that hasn't really stood up to scrutiny. I dare say on other airline threads that some of the comments would have met with much sterner sanction........

fa2fi 28th Feb 2015 23:47

@Jet2 Minister for Information
No need to apologise mate. You're obviously some child or a troll and I couldn't care less about you or your online agenda if I tried.

You don't make valuable points though. You spout off personal opinion and half truths and present them as fact. If anyone dares disagree you vehemently defend LS and don't see anyone else's point of view. You also conveniently gloss over posts where your 'valuable points' have been disproven or found to be your personal opinion and that alone. You're unable to discuss things in an adult manner nor are you able to consider the opinions of others nor facts that don't fit in with your agenda. You're unable to discuss things like an adult, see things from another point of view and your militant defending of LS is tiresome and immature.

You already explained the use of the bold and underlined text. Just because you explained it twice doesn't make it any less annoying.

Anyway, bed time for me. Planes to fly and all that. I'd also say it is a very small idustry/community and I'm already pretty certain I know who you are and you're making a bit of a t-t of yourself. Just sayin'.

Happy spotting.

paully 1st Mar 2015 08:19


I think we all know who it is....did he get the red card under his previous incarnation???

Mr A Tis 1st Mar 2015 10:01

Guys, you are all making this thread tedious for ther rest of us. I would not be surprised if it gets locked.

Lord Spandex Masher 1st Mar 2015 13:52

Gorter your original claim was that new aircraft don't suffer from as many or as complex technical problems. I can dispute that with absolute fact based on two different brand new aircraft types. That is not subjective because it isn't based on my opinion or feelings but actual occurrences.

Just because you don't accept it as fact doesn't change the fact it's a fact.

gorter 1st Mar 2015 15:38

Jet2 4
Whilst I'm certainly finding your definition of proof amusing (at best you're describing anecdotal evidence but you haven't provided any of that either) I'll leave the thread to those who want it back to jet2 items as they wish. Enjoy the roster disruption. With all the crew leaving I'm sure it'll be fun.

Lord Spandex Masher 1st Mar 2015 18:05

I didn't say I would old bean, I said I could. Either way your opinion doesn't disprove anything.

EK77WNCL 1st Mar 2015 19:16

I like the fact Jet2 has older aircraft, it works for them and I respect them for it, I don't necessarily think they'd be any better off with newer aircraft, there might be less delays (or less chance of delays) but the aircraft are so much more expensive I'm sure it wouldn't be a good move at all. They do manage, they have managed and they will manage, and customers will keep coming back.

Jet2_738 1st Mar 2015 19:37

Well said EK77WNCL! Your average punter wouldn't notice any difference, especially given Jet2's modern interior. Put them on a 28 year old 737-300, and then on a newer 737-800 - I doubt they'd notice any difference! It's always great being able to see an original classic come into Newcastle - and I really like their new addition of winglets on G-GDFH! :ok:

brian_dromey 1st Mar 2015 20:20

I don't understand why people are getting so worked up.
The model of airlines buying older, but good examples, aircraft is a well established one.
Allegiant in the US have been putting new cabins in MD-80s for for the last decade while other airlines retire them. As their MD's are getting long in the tooth they are taking pre-loved A319s (easyJet and CebuPacific) and A320s into their fleet. More famous airlines like Delta are making good use of cast off MD90s and 717s, just like Northwest Airlines acquired used DC-10s cheaply and flew them for another decade or more. Even BA are taking used A320s from wizzAir for their Gatwick fleet.

Different airline models work differently, older aircraft can be more demanding of fuel and engineering, but are less demanding of capital and allow for more seasonality. You build a different type of schedule and support around 100, identical, new 737s than you would 50 assorted vintage 737s. Neither is "the best". They are different approaches to making money.

EK77WNCL 1st Mar 2015 20:52

Yeah, am I correct in my belief that something like 95% of Jet2's fleet is owned outright so it costs them next to nothing if they have to park them over the winter, whereas it's expensive for FR to have brand new 738's littered around Europe over winter as they still have to pay for the leasing etc.

SWBKCB 1st Mar 2015 21:06

Enough now, Dan-Air were doing it 40 years ago and doubtless others before them...

Jet2_738 1st Mar 2015 22:12

Yes, you're right EK77WNCL. The majority of Jet2's fleet is owned outright, so it does literally cost nothing to keep them parked up over the winter. Quite a lot of FR's aircraft are on lease, and as you said, it is expensive to keep these new 738's dotted about Europe, for this reason.

The following aircraft are owned outright by Jet2:
All of the 737-300 G-CEL* Fleet (20 aircraft)
All of the 757-200 G-LSA* Fleet (11 aircraft)

And the other following aircraft:

and the new addition G-JZHA -- (15 aircraft)

Currently, Jet2 are leasing only 9 out of 55 aircraft (So LS own just under 85% of the fleet outright). Both G-JZHB and G-JZHC are to be leased, when they arrive before the summer. Still, a much more flexible business model, especially when a lot of your flying is seasonal! :ok:

EK77WNCL 1st Mar 2015 23:00

Pretty impressive! I dont actually understand the difference between leasing and owning I only know that owned aircraft are paid for (just add fuel) and leased are paid for in installments

Skipness One Echo 2nd Mar 2015 00:53

Don't Ryanair buy direct from Boeing then sell on? That was part of their model, they got a great deal and all are B737-8AS except a very few of the latest deliveries.

The company are niche and local, they do well out of LBA and MAN, have a smaller base at NCL and BFS and picked up the flyglobespan market in Scotland. The quickest way to lose money would be an airliners.nut project of long haul ambitions with another new aircraft type. You need really deep pockets for that ball game.

take-off 2nd Mar 2015 01:28

I would imagine any long haul , would be tied in with jet2 holiday destinations , and heavily pushed from the holiday side I would have thought . There's no doubt that it's been looked into and if(should) they enter that market , will be done in a steady as she goes way , much like they normally do , worked for them before and continues to work for them . They do seem to have a pretty loyal customer following . Just wish things had been different down in BLK , certainly do miss them over here :ugh::{:{

brian_dromey 2nd Mar 2015 08:14

Leasing and owning an aircraft is much like renting and ownig a house. Except most "owned" aircraft are much like most "owned" homes, they are mortgaged in some way. I have no idea how LS has funded their "owned" aircraft, but I would wager that there is some sort of finance outstanding.

As for long-haul, I don't think it's established that anyone has really made a profitable venture of long-haul, low-cost flying. Norwegian and AirAsiaX's finances currently match the red of their aircraft. Short-haul LCCs have caused legacy carriers to strip millions from their cost base, so unlike the past the legacy names are already on-line, sweating assets, reduced crew numbers, fitted more seats, explored revenue opportunities. Increasing utilisation over the Atlantic is also a challenge, it's 2 sectors in 24 hours, very few ways to fit more in. The legacy carriers are ahead of the game in the major markets, the U.S. carriers have penetrated secondary UK markets with the 757. Hard to see where the market is.
All of that said, I will slightly contradict myself and say Jet2 might have a shout at long haul. As other posters have said the holidays business may be the key here, much like Thomas Cook and Thomson. But that's not really "new" or "innovative" or anything we've never had before, but it works and makes money. Low frequency to popular leisure destinations could work, but I don't see alliances, high frequency, frequent-flyer, code-share or any of that business.

IB4138 2nd Mar 2015 08:43

I find all this back slapping of and publicity for Jet 2 on this thread rather nauseous.

They are like any other airline who, if you have suffered many lengthy delays at their hands and poor customer service, will find them an airline to avoid if at all cost.

They would do their image no harm if they coughed up for their over 3 hour delayed flights, instead of carrying on prevaricating in the Courts.

Jet2_738 2nd Mar 2015 08:47

Agreed with brian_dromey. I don't think Jet2 are going to even touch the market of high-frequency alliance hopping to the USA. I think they will, if anything, ease into the market, and offer the flights as part of new destinations featured with Jet2holidays. They will compete (if anyone) with the likes of TOM or TCX, but won't go near the big flagship carriers' operations. Maybe we could expect to see about 1-2 times per week (at peak times), at first, from maybe LBA, MAN or NCL, and see how they go from then. :ok:

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