Jet2 738
 

In bad weather like in Madeira, in September/October time, a Jet2 flight had to divert to TFS. What they could have done, is said, "You are here until we can get our flight back out - you will have to sort out your own accommodation". But, Jet2 didn't do that! They put every person on that flight (including flight only) up in a local hotel for the night, close to the airport, with no charge to pay. What would Ryanair have said? It's not our fault - exceptional circumstances! But of course, Jet2 didn't, so in terms of customer relations, let's just say that it is not Jet2 who have some learning to do!








I think you will find this is was an obligation as opposed to choice. the flight diverted to another country and Jet2 are obliged under EU regulation to get them to the relevant booked destination...


to argue the ash cloud as a measure for customer care is just bizarre as it was too long ago.
current timescales of response from Jet2 for any complaint is way outside of ABTA's code of conduct due to the sheer quantity of complaints going in to them as a company....they are not good at post travel care whatsoever


I do agree with the nonsense regarding aircraft age - they are airworthy and licensed so everyone should get over it.

G-LSAB seems to be doing a lot of test flying from Man and coming back about an hour later

I understand that the flight to the final destination is obligatory, but the point I was trying to make was the concerning accommodation.

What I meant by this was Jet2 put every passenger up in a hotel for the night free of charge, where as Ryanair, would have followed the rules and got them to the final destination, but they would not have provided the overnight layover accommodation in TFS for free, as Jet2 did.

If Jet2 aren't good, then what does that make Ryanair... Terrible!

Exactly! The thing is, your average traveller wouldn't know any different - and if you have got a nice modern interior, as Jet2 have, then it would be an easy mistake to make that the aircraft was bought yesterday! (For your average traveller of course) :ok:

"to argue the ash cloud as a measure for customer care is just bizarre as it was too long ago.
current timescales of response from Jet2 for any complaint is way outside of ABTA's code of conduct due to the sheer quantity of complaints going in to them as a company....they are not good at post travel care whatsoever"


Re Ash: All I said was - it was an example, not bizarre - just an example of company culture that I believe still exists.


Re ABTA Complaints: I would be grateful if you could provide a source for that information as I cannot find anything on the net but is it the number of complaints or a lack of staff? You don't say, so until you clarify I can say no more.


But I did find this on the CAA website:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/complai...ch_airline.pdf
which says that Easyjet and Ryanair have far less complaints per million passengers than Jet2 but Virgin Atlantic has more, Monarch and Thomson have way more and Thomas Cook is in a league of its own as far as complaints go.

Re: What 2Planks found on the CAA website

Also, Fernanjet If you have a look at the document, although Jet2 have more complaints per million, just look at the cancellation numbers! Jet2 have far less cancellations than that of FR, EZY, TOM, TCX and BA. Quite frankly, I would rather be late for example, than have a cancelled flight. Just to give some perspective, Jet2 had:

77.14% less cancellations than Ryanair
88.63% less than Easyjet
82.22% less than Thomas Cook
76.23% less than Thomson
58.62% less than Monarch
95.38% less than British Airways

Is that cancellations per airline or cancellations per 1000 departures/airline. If is is just per airline then it's pretty difficult to draw a conclusion as to what airlines is best.

fa2fi
 

Well spotted fa2fi.

Fleet renewal
 

To answer other posters re fleet renewal this would be a huge financial undertaking and would for sure require some kind of rights issue or raising of cash to fund it - Dart group certainly couldn't fund an order for 50 brand new aircraft with additional purchase rights with out this.

That would leave it very vulnerable to a take over bid by one of the other LCCs.

Nope, they have no option to say that. Neither do Ryanair.

This means they must provide:

• A reasonable amount of food and drink (often provided in the form of vouchers)
• A means for you to communicate (often by refunding the cost of your calls)
• Accommodation, if you’re delayed overnight (usually in a nearby hotel)
• Transport to and from the accommodation (or your home, if you are able to return there)

Care and assistance for short-haul delays | Resolving Travel Problems | Passengers

That's a very useful page to print-out and keep in the back of your passport.

Probably not best to bring up the 'extraordinary circumstances' clause since Jet2 recently lost their appeal for using that excuse.

Ryanair's claim was that the volcanic ash incident exceeded 'extraordinary' and therefore the requirements to accommodate passengers was not binding. The ECJ ruled that was nonsense ( there is nothing beyond extraordinary! ) and Ryanair, and all other airlines, are therefore bound.

Errr - the document I linked to shows the number of complaints re delays and cancellations not the number of delays or cancellations so Jet2-738 was a bit quick off the mark, but the criticism from fa2fi and mr spotty was also a bit quick.

Errr. I wasn't criticising. I was merely trying to establish the facts so that a fair comparison can be made between the airlines. If there was a comparison to be made them I'm sure the picture wouldn't be quite a rosy as some people are making out. Especially given the size and seasonality of the Jet2 operation compared to other airlines on the list.

Now that I can view the document on large device in the harsh light of day (I was reading the doc on a phone screen after a long day!) the information is actually clearly on the extreme right of the document. And it shows that LS actually has one of the highest rates of complaints per million passengers and it shows that they have almost five times the amount of complaints per million compared to Ryanair for example.

Yes they did, but are still refusing to pay up whilst a case relating to another airline, Van der Lans v KLM, goes before the European Court, in the slim hope that they can piggyback if the judgement is made in favour of the airline and not pay out.

A test case is due in Liverpool County Court, Allen V Jet2.com, before the end of the month to see if this further refusal to pay has any legal standing.

The Allen case was heard at Liverpool yesterday 25th Feb, and judgement posted this morning. The airlines lost

you can read the judgement at Allen-v-Jet2

I hardly think ambulance chasing lawyers pursuing EU261 test cases is a ground for points scoring on this forum. This is an immensely serious issue which all airlines are quite rightly fighting.

I was in tesco yesterday and these claim companies had a stand erected at the front door. Quite happily advertising the fact that even with a £30 ticket you could be due £400. Pathetic.

fa2fi:

A fair comparison would imply taking similar airlines with similar types of business activities. For example, it would be fair to compare JET2 with Thomson or with Thomas Cook and, although perhaps stretchng a point, with Monarch/Cosmos. The aforementioned have similar business activities, similar fleet ages and, finally, similar fleet sizes. Nevertheless please note the word “similar”, which does not mean the “same”.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to enlighten us all on the rates of complaints between the above airlines/holiday companies and how they compare. Thank you in advance for your trouble.

DjerbaDevil
 

Well it would be a lot fairer to compare them to EZY or FR as they're primarily a scheduled airline. They (LS) advertise and promote seat only deals instead of a whole package holidays unlike Thomson or Thomas Cook. Yes, both will sell you a seat but their core market is serving their respective holiday companies with a bit of seat only offers on the side. Jet2 existed for a good few years before the holiday division was set up.

It does not matter what type or age of plane they're operating. Complaints are complaints wether it is a brand new A320 or a battered 733.

Besides, Thomson have many brand new 738s and 787. They may both be Boeing but the fleet cannot be compared to Jet2 by any stretch of the imagination. Thomas Cook again have a fairly new fleet and MON have been morphing into a scheduled only airline for quite some time now so they are not the best comparison if we are going down the route of saying LS is a holiday/package airline. Most of the TOM/TCX flights are charters, many LS flights are scheduled flights for who Jet2holidays will likely buy a block of seats but the rest is available to anyone.

I don't have to enlighten anyone. Anyone can view the document, scroll to the right and see a comparison on a per million passenger figure.

Just out of interest. You're telling me to compare comparable airlines. Are you not going to ask Jet2738 to compare LS to comparable airlines? Or is it a matter of him/her also defending LS that you've conveniently ignored that.

And are we just picking and choosing whichever category makes LS look the best? That's the beauty of statistics, they can always help you prove a point depending on how you use them.

On the face of it their performance is disappointing. Add to the fact that LS are extremely seasonal and hardly fly during the challenging winter months then I do wonder why their stats are so poor in comparison to BA, FR, EZY and BE.

LS 738 - given the name, they are clearly going to be biased towards Jet2, we know that, but there is little substance in the arguments.


the only thing they have correctly pointed out is that aircraft age is irrelevant, unless the delays are more frequent due to technical issues brought around by age, but that is something we cannot measure here.


regarding EU 261/2004 - age of fleet may come into this now as older aircraft "may" be more susceptible to technical issues through natural wear and tear and with that comes delays, with that, costs that Jet2 may struggle to fund if the delays are substantial throughout a season.

I've never looked at those tables before but I'd advise caution looking at one set of numbers. For example 2012 Jet2 Complaints/million 42.1 vs Total airlines 32.9 ; 2014 to Q3 Jet2 108.4 total airlines 104.2.

Isn't it in the nature of airline operations that a few events will give you a spike in the data.You need a long run of data to be saying that A is significantly better than B or has been getting better/worse over time.

I wonder if foreign passengers on the big scheduled airlines are a bit less likely to complain to the UK CAA.

Now, that was calculated per airline, and the link many may fail to realise is that FR or EZY have much larger passenger figures, Ryanair have a figure of 29million passengers, and Easyjet have a figure of 34million passengers, whilst Jet2 only had 5.6million. However, like the second quote says, you need data from an extended period of time to be able to calculate the average, and not only that, but If Jet2 had a figure close to that of Ryanair or Easyjet, then the amount of complaints per million would not be so high.

I am sorry, haven't you heard of Jet2holidays.com, who operate collaboratively with Jet2.com (hence the link upon the homepage) and don't offer Flight+Hotel like EZY, but offer whole package holidays, just like Thomson and Thomas Cook, with the ABTA and ATOL protection also.

No, haven't you read the above already? Jet2holidays operate on the same booking system at Jet2.com. Jet2holidays don't buy blocks of seats, and Jet2.com don't sell it to them. The same seat map, on the same route, will be exactly the same as the one on both of the websites. This means that every seat can be purchased and reserved on the Jet2holidays website, and the same for the Jet2.com website - so no - Jet2 don't Charter flights for Jet2holidays, and operate separate flights (or separate seat blocks) for flight only.

The name is Jet2_738, and if I am not mistaken, this is a Jet2 forum - so does this mean I don't have the right to defend or "be biased" towards the airline at which of course this whole sub forum is dedicated to?

As above, I don't understand why you are bringing Ryanair and Easyjet into this... If your compassion for these airlines is just too strong, I am sure that there is another sub forum dedicated to each of these airlines, where you can discuss your deep, deep love affair.

I don't mind constructive criticism - but really, there is no need to bring yourselves into this forum , with an aim to point out all of Jet2's weaknesses (especially if you don't even know about Jet2holidays). At the end of the day, I am more than sure that both FR and EZY have many weaknesses themselves, at which others will voice their own strong opinions about that. Jet2 are an airline that would be more favourable than both FR and EZY by many millions of people - especially in the north, which of course EZY and FR don't favour over the vast profits of London and the South. Jet2 are the only airline that are true to the North, based here, and only serve up here. Jet2 is a much smaller airline than both of these, in terms of passenger numbers and fleet, but don't pick on the underdog - Jet2 and Jet2holidays are both showing absolutely huge signs of growth, and are going to grow, whether you haters like it, or not. :=

fa2fi:

It is unacceptable to compare RYR with JET2 because RYR is a foreign airline and their complaints would normally go to the Irish CAA, so that the only complaints going to the British CAA would be from passengers originating their journey in the UK. Furthermore RYR have a myriad of aircraft stationed at numerous foreign airports that fly to other foreign airports that don’t come anywhere near the UK. All this adds to their passenger numbers that waters down their complaints’ ratio to the British CAA. Added to the foregoing RYR have no inhouse IT programme. JET2 didn’t have an IT programme years ago BUT they do have NOW and since some time back and it is substantial and if not more important as their scheduled services, certainly as important to them now.

Comparable to JET2 are TOM, TCX and MON and as 2Planks has pointed out in the web site: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/complai...ch_airline.pdf JET2 have 189.1 complaints per million passengers, TOM have 468.1 complaints per million passengers, MON have 492.1 complaints per million passengers and finally TCX have 1,050.5 complaints per millon passengers. This is a winter period where the airlines above have a relatively and comparably low flying programme.

Agreed that TOM have a few new aircraft but their 757s and 767s are quite old but the newer aircraft adds to their advantage over JET2 or should do. TCX have a similar fleet age as TOM but older. MON provide seats for Cosmos just the same as JET2 do for their holiday side of the business.

If as you seem to say that because TOM, TCX or MON have newer aircraft, you cannot compare their complaints to JET2, then the same could be said and for better reasons for your comparison with RYR, who own 305 aircraft and have a fleet age of about 6 years old.

In so far as the reason why JET2 have fewer passenger complaints than the other comparable airlines such as TOM, TCX and MON, it is because JET2 do have an older fleet of PURCHASED aircraft, so that they have spare aircraft on stand by that cost them no leasing fees, so that when an aircraft goes U/S they (JET2) are able produce a replacement aircraft quickly and efficiently. This reduces the risk of long technical delays and the compensation payouts.

Great Point DjerbaDevil! Exactly as stated above, RYR operate flights from foreign airports to foreign airports, as do EZY, where as TOM, MON, TCX and LS don't. This means that many of the foreign flight complaints have not been factored into the table of the British CAA's results. Just bear that in mind - or maybe go post it over in the RYR sub forum of the website, as opposed to trying to invade and put Jet2 down.

Jeez you really don't want people criticising jet2 do you?! I fly for them and even I wouldn't defend them so vociferously. At the end of the day all airlines get complaints and in my opinion jet2 respond to them as well as most uk airlines. For the vast majority of the fare paying public though, unless they've had a really bad experience with a particular airline, will just go down the usual whichever is the cheapest on the days they want to fly route. And virtually none of them will have any interest in CAA statistics on complaints!

Anyway, the latest I've heard on the announcement which probably won't be an announcement announcement is that it might be in March, and PM has been spotted in Seattle, make of that what you will though.

Oh god, they don't need encouraging... :eek:

Yeah sorry for bringing up the old fleet announcement thing, I just thought it be a more interesting comment for most readers on a rumour network than discussing CAA complaint statistics :p

Penworth,

Is he off to buy the original 747, or shock horror, bring Concorde out of retirement? :E:ouch:

I suspect he is in Seattle to meet the top brass of Starbucks to discuss on board beverage sales.

Doing an Air Austral??

737MAX is probably a safe bet (but which one maybe -9 or 200?) - either that or maybe some new 737NG's, or maybe even a mixed order, for a few 737MAX's and a few more 737NG's. Anyway, time will tell, but of course we can only speculate until then!... :confused:

You seem insistant that EZY don't sell 'whole' package holidays (whatever they are, a package is a package) when they do.

jet2_738
 

I don't think anyone is criticising Jet2 excellent safety record or the dedication of their engineers. I fly/have flown many sectors with Jet2 without serious delay or complaint, it's a good company, my point about aircraft age is that other than a lower purchase cost there is absolutely no benefit in running an old fleet, other than you can park them up in winter at less cost, everything else cost more a lot more. No warranty, higher fuel burn and that includes the old NG's entering the fleet, aircraft get heavier with age, they become more drag prone due to rippling, more tech issues, more delays and yes they've had a number of turn back and the 737 Achilles heel depressurisation related issues. You can add to that non standard spec depending on what the original owner ordered.

Non of this matters to the punter unless it delays them of course.

But if you go to court on a defence of 'exceptional circumstance beyond our control' it is only a matter of time before someone asks if buying older aircraft is a factor in reliability ? with the market leaders aiming for an average fleet age of less than 7 years they must have a good reason for doing so, what is the age of Jet2 youngest and oldest airframe out of interest?

It won't stop me flying with them so long as they ate more or less on time and yes their in resort support is excellent

The youngest at the moment is 737-8Z9(WL), G-GDFR, at 11.7 years old,
And the oldest bird in the fleet is 737-330(QC), G-CELP, at 28.7 years of age, this meaning from youngest to oldest, a range of 17 years.

I understand that with age come no greater benefit, other than cost of course. But at the end of the day, if they're airworthy, and smart inside, then why not?

And Jet2 have a recovery method in these sort of cases - spare aircraft parked up. This strategy serves them well, especially as most of the destinations are no more than 4-5 hours away. It means that if an aircraft goes tech down route, Jet2 have a plan B, something a lot of airlines can't accommodate. Another benefit is that the parked aircraft are dotted around the EU, so not only do they have spares in the UK, they also have a spare I believe down in ALC, which can often mean faster dispatch to the Canary Islands. I think it is only a 733, but even so, that could be dispatched and pick the passengers up with a 2 hour delay, drop them in ALC, and straight onto a recovery aircraft from LBA in the UK. So instead of waiting 4.5/5 hours for a spare to arrive, you are on one in 2 hours. :ok:

My intention was not to criticise LS but rather draw attention to the fact that fair comparisons be made.

However I'm fully converted. Jet2 are amazing and can do no wrong. How silly of me to even dare think otherwise. They're an example for us all to aspire to.

It's still odd how one person can compare LS to other airlines to prove their agenda yet others who use the same airlines to compare another statistic are lambasted. Just saying. It's those who militantly support and defend certain airlines, types or manufacturers that make this site unbearable. It's a shame as it was once good. I'd hazard a guess at saying just 1% here are professional pilots. And it really shows!

PS all the bold and underlined text really does my crust in. Is there any need?

The bold and underlined text is purely for emphasis, so I deem there to be a need.

So would that include you? - How does anyone know?

Is this sarcastic? Maybe some bold text would allow us to more clearly visualize your intentions.

And yes, I do prefer Boeing to Airbus for a number of reasons, and you may prefer airbus - it is essentially a matter of opinion. I do admire the way Jet2 operate, and I do not wish to put other airlines down, in order to 'suit my own agenda'. I have been on EZY a few times, and they're alright - rather like a well-oiled bus service, quick on, quick off. I admire the way LS operate, simply as their business covers a broad range of the market, and could tailor to suit everyone's needs. EZY's business, is short haul, intercity hops, this is similar with FR, and it clearly does them well. Jet2 can accommodate as a LCC on similar short city routes, but has the advantage of the package holiday side of the business, and of course the advantage of the seasonal flights to the USA.

Jet2_738

You mention that Jet2 have aircraft dotted around europe just waiting to be used... I know you mention ALC but where would the other places be and are there standby crew ready to operate them at a moments notice?

Who/what is `LS`...?

LS is the IATA code for Jet2. (And EXS is the ICAO code for Jet2).

I beleive that at least G-CELG is ALC now, and in the summer, there is often another down there. ALC is an ideal base, 2 hours from the UK, 2 hours from the farthest destinations. I believe that Jet2 have their own crew down in ALC, though I am not sure, but this is likely as they have their own baggage handlers, passenger service assistants, and sales team down there :ok:

Jet2 4
 

Nothing to do with ALC giving them some money to do so.

And let's be honest the SBY is not some form of altruistic vision to satisfy the customers. It is a business decision to protect the business against eu261 costs. The business weighed one cost versus the other and considered sby a/c as the most cost effective way to cover this. It was either that or pay up every time an a/c was delayed more than 3 hours (which certainly happens whether this is more than other airlines I can speculate but I don't have all the facts to compare it to)

Whether the sby can be maintained when it appears (as is the rumour that I am being told by my former colleagues, yes I used to be a pilot at jet2 until a little while ago) on average one pilot is handing in his/her notice every day is yet to be seen. That outflow appears like it will continue for a while yet. There are also very good reasons for that and it's not because people are desperate to move away from their home base.

Edited to add: whilst there is nothing wrong with old aircraft per se and I had no issue with jet2 engineers, older a/c do get odd faults that are extremely hard to trace. That means several aircraft I flew in my time there sometimes had very spurious but recurring faults that would sometimes ground an a/c for a very long time only for the fault to resolve itself. Eventually after a couple of repeats could the fault be traced to some worn out part. Not unusual (certainly not extraordinary) and I would be quite certain less likely to happen on a newer aircraft. Yes old aircraft can fly around quite happily, but there comes a point when an old fleet becomes prohibitively expensive. In my opinion the time when an airline could play of boeing vs Airbus to get a dirt cheap deal is not now and whilst a fleet renewal is becoming more vital, it is also going to be significantly more expensive than it would have been in the past.

It makes sense for Jet2 to have a back up aircraft in ALC - LS are number 2 in the UK-Alicante market with a 20.9% frequency share. I know in 2013 they had an operational base with 2 a/c.

Lower capital costs are a huge advantage. You're right, you can't work the fleet as hard as if it was factory fresh, but clearly jet2 have done their sums and, for them, having the flexibility to park up part of the fleet works. For example a 2012 738 is estimated to lease at $375,000 a month - a 2000 build at around 210,000, a 737-300 somewhere around $60,000 a month. You'd have to burn a lot of fuel to make up $300k a month ($3.6 million annually). So, while you can't work the fleet as hard and need more operational spares, you have the flexibility to adjust to the market demands.

Does anyone really care wither the aircraft they are flying on was built in 2013 or 1983? Does it make any difference? New aircraft have technical problems too.