Flybe-V2

[Wycombe]

Originally Posted by BA318

I really don’t understand this. Are the existing routes performing so badly that it’s better to give the new routes a shot? Or they just don’t care about the existing routes? Seems strange.

BHX to GLA and EDI have been largely operated since they started by the leased-in Spanish ATR72. Perhaps there's a hard-stop on the lease period and then a gap before more Q400's are available.

Info posted elsewhere suggests there are 4 more (ex Flybe Mk1) Q400's expected, anywhere between the next 10 days and late December (different dates per airframe), all subject to change.

In the meantime, G-EXTB (on lease from LOT) has now entered service, and I believe there's another to come.

[Jenny Tails]

Flybe are back at IOM:

BHD-IOM starts 30/10/22
BE606 BHD 1420-1500 IOM (Mon-Fri) BE608 BHD 1805-1845 IOM (Sun)
BE609 IOM 1920-2000 BHD (Sun) BE607 IOM 2015-2055 BHD (Mon-Fri)

IOM-LHR starts 31/10/22
BE725 IOM 1545-1720 LHR (Mon-Fri)
BE726 LHR 1805-1940 IOM (Mon-Fri)

[SWBKCB]

Originally Posted by Wycombe

BHX to GLA and EDI have been largely operated since they started by the leased-in Spanish ATR72. Perhaps there's a hard-stop on the lease period and then a gap before more Q400's are available.

I think the point is, if there is a shortage of airframes why not delay the launch of the new service rather than suspending existing services? Not a great way to improve your reputation.

And lets not mention the 'there are plenty of a/c available, lessors will be desperate, BE will be able to get the pick of the bunch' comments.

[ATNotts]

Originally Posted by SWBKCB

I think the point is, if there is a shortage of airframes why not delay the launch of the new service rather than suspending existing services? Not a great way to improve your reputation.

And lets not mention the 'there are plenty of a/c available, lessors will be desperate, BE will be able to get the pick of the bunch' comments.

Well whatever the reasoning Flybe aren't going to make much of a fist of competing with EZY on GLA and EDI to BHX by pulling off the routes, be that for four weeks as the booking system on their website was showing this morning, or until Christmas if social media is apparently suggesting (I don't 'do' social media so haven't read it myself).

[V_2]

Originally Posted by SWBKCB

I think the point is, if there is a shortage of airframes why not delay the launch of the new service rather than suspending existing services? Not a great way to improve your reputation.

not sure, but perhaps if the existing service has competition it might be cheaper to rebook your pax via them, rather than axing the new route with no competition where 2+ flights and compensation might be involved for pax. Reputation takes a hit whatever services get chopped.

[BA318]

Originally Posted by V_2

not sure, but perhaps if the existing service has competition it might be cheaper to rebook your pax via them, rather than axing the new route with no competition where 2+ flights and compensation might be involved for pax. Reputation takes a hit whatever services get chopped.

But surely the route with no competition if cancelled those pax can’t go elsewhere? The routes with competition you are actively giving pax to your rivals. Maybe it’s less costly but seems bizarre and counter productive.

[ATNotts]

Originally Posted by BA318

But surely the route with no competition if cancelled those pax can’t go elsewhere? The routes with competition you are actively giving pax to your rivals. Maybe it’s less costly but seems bizarre and counter productive.

I am inclined to agree, either they want to grow their slice of the BHX - Scotland market or they don't. If they aren't serious then can the routes and put their energy and resources elsewhere.

[Wycombe]

Originally Posted by ATNotts

I am inclined to agree, either they want to grow their slice of the BHX - Scotland market or they don't. If they aren't serious then can the routes and put their energy and resources elsewhere.

Rightly or wrongly, they may be prioritising some of the upcoming routes, LHR-NQY (starts at end of Oct) springs to mind.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Originally Posted by Wycombe

Rightly or wrongly, they may be prioritising some of the upcoming routes, LHR-NQY (starts at end of Oct) springs to mind.

Launching Newquay going into winter on a point to point basis (with no codeshares at LHR?) seems just aimed at damaging the Eastern operate PSO on LGW-NQY. Similarly attacking the very niche and govt supported IOM-LHR up against Loganair just seems fairly spiteful and a spolier. These are low volume niche markets that can barely support one carrier in winter, I remain concerned that flybe2 offer nothing new net new in market.
Are zombie-flybe really saying to Cornwall County Council and the IOM govt who subsidise Eastern and Loganair's ops respectively that there's no need to subsidise at all or that they should choose flybe instead?

[lfc84]

Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot

Launching Newquay going into winter on a point to point basis (with no codeshares at LHR?) seems just aimed at damaging the Eastern operate PSO on LGW-NQY. Similarly attacking the very niche and govt supported IOM-LHR up against Loganair just seems fairly spiteful and a spolier. These are low volume niche markets that can barely support one carrier in winter, I remain concerned that flybe2 offer nothing new net new in market.
Are zombie-flybe really saying to Cornwall County Council and the IOM govt who subsidise Eastern and Loganair's ops respectively that there's no need to subsidise at all or that they should choose flybe instead?

The reason why LHR-IOM is niche is because the fares are so high

[willy wombat]

I would suggest that the desperation to find routes that they hope won’t lose a large fortune (only a small fortune) into Heathrow simply confirms what I have always said which is that Flybe v2 is simply a Heathrow (and to a lesser extend, Amsterdam) slot play. It will take a number of years to play out, assuming they don’t run out of money before then and in the meantime cause all sort of damage to other companies, but I’m afraid no current Flybe v2 staff can expect to get 10 year long service medals.

[Flightrider]

Originally Posted by lfc84

The reason why LHR-IOM is niche is because the fares are so high

And by the looks of it, that isn't going to change.

Sample return for the dates in November, Flybe is fractionally more expensive - even before you add £18 each way for a bag - than Loganair. easyJet LGW is much cheaper but their bag charges look to have shot up in recent times - £54.98 return for their bundle, which is almost as much as the base fare on many flights.

If you want a cheap fare, it's Gatwick (as long as you don't take a bag). If you want the lowest fare to Heathrow, it's Loganair with or without a bag. I can't see any USP or anything different Flybe are bringing to the party, unless I'm missing something?

[lfc84]

Originally Posted by Flightrider

And by the looks of it, that isn't going to change.

Sample return for the dates in November, Flybe is fractionally more expensive - even before you add £18 each way for a bag - than Loganair. easyJet LGW is much cheaper but their bag charges look to have shot up in recent times - £54.98 return for their bundle, which is almost as much as the base fare on many flights.

If you want a cheap fare, it's Gatwick (as long as you don't take a bag). If you want the lowest fare to Heathrow, it's Loganair with or without a bag. I can't see any USP or anything different Flybe are bringing to the party, unless I'm missing something?

Alternative schedule

[BA318]

Originally Posted by lfc84

Alternative schedule

Don’t forget Loganair are also flying to LCY twice a day offering a much more convenient service for those heading to London and their evening flight is similar times to the Flybe one (which only operates Mon-Fri).

[Flightrider]

Originally Posted by lfc84

Alternative schedule

In purist terms, yes. In reality, it doesn't help anyone to plan a trip they couldn't already do.

Do they have any codeshares or through ticketing at all yet?

I would suggest that the desperation to find routes that they hope won’t lose a large fortune (only a small fortune) into Heathrow simply confirms what I have always said which is that Flybe v2 is simply a Heathrow (and to a lesser extend, Amsterdam) slot play.

It looks more and more like that!

[BA318]

Loganair’s Chief Executive posted this on LinkedIn

“Loganair has carried over 20,000 customers this summer between the Isle of Man and London, flying to both Heathrow and London City. It's great to see so many customers enjoying the Loganair service: - assured onward same-ticket connections worldwide with our partner airlines including British Airways; - free baggage allowance included with every ticket; - flights on seven days a week; - our rewarding Clan Loganair frequent flyer scheme; - our GreenSkies programme to offset the carbon emissions from every flight. Above all, our operation supports 40 local jobs in the Isle of Man for our great team of pilots, cabin crew and engineers based there. If we have the pleasure of welcoming you on one of our flights, please do say hello - they're a fantastic team who do a great job looking after our customers, and together, we're in it for the long haul. #flyloganair#theisleofmansairline”

Cleary they are sticking around for the fight.

[Wycombe]

Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot

Launching Newquay going into winter on a point to point basis (with no codeshares at LHR?) seems just aimed at damaging the Eastern operate PSO on LGW-NQY. Similarly attacking the very niche and govt supported IOM-LHR up against Loganair just seems fairly spiteful and a spolier. These are low volume niche markets that can barely support one carrier in winter, I remain concerned that flybe2 offer nothing new net new in market.
Are zombie-flybe really saying to Cornwall County Council and the IOM govt who subsidise Eastern and Loganair's ops respectively that there's no need to subsidise at all or that they should choose flybe instead?

There was plenty of disquiet in Cornwall when the PSO was announced as LGW. Yes, codeshares are needed, but there are plenty of longhaul markets served from LHR (that aren't from LGW) that folk coming in from the SW will want to connect to.

Also plenty of the affluent London-based Cornish 2nd home-owning set, who may be tempted away from the 5 hour drive in the Range Rover for their weekend jaunts to Rock or St Ives (anyone frequenting the A30 west of Exeter late on a Friday evening, at any time of year, will be aware of the volume of people in this category)

None of us know whether Flybe are being very smart with these moves, or if they're comitting commercial suicide. I'd side with the giving them the benefit of the doubt for now.

[BA318]

Originally Posted by Wycombe

There was plenty of disquiet in Cornwall when the PSO was announced as LGW. Yes, codeshares are needed, but there are plenty of longhaul markets served from LHR (that aren't from LGW) that folk coming in from the SW will want to connect to.

Also plenty of the affluent London-based Cornish 2nd home-owning set, who may be tempted away from the 5 hour drive in the Range Rover for their weekend jaunts to Rock or St Ives (anyone frequenting the A30 west of Exeter late on a Friday evening, at any time of year, will be aware of the volume of people in this category)

None of us know whether Flybe are being very smart with these moves, or if they're comitting commercial suicide. I'd side with the giving them the benefit of the doubt for now.

There are lots of LHR routes people will want to connect to but how many are willing to risk their trip with two separate tickets. The Flybe flight gets in too late and you miss your connection then you’re on your own. A codeshare/through connection adds that needed safety.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Originally Posted by lfc84

The reason why LHR-IOM is niche is because the fares are so high

Well quite, it's because by they're using an ATR72 which doesn't have the seat/mile costs of an A319.
It's an ATR72 because the volume on IOM-LON is split across 3 x daily to London with 1 x LHR and 2 x LCY to maintain a business friendly schedule.
The once daily London option already has a loco option on easyJet, now there does seem to be room for loco and frequency but flybe are simply looking to replace Loganair.

[lfc84]

Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot

Well quite, it's because by they're using an ATR72 which doesn't have the seat/mile costs of an A319.
It's an ATR72 because the volume on IOM-LON is split across 3 x daily to London with 1 x LHR and 2 x LCY to maintain a business friendly schedule.
The once daily London option already has a loco option on easyJet, now there does seem to be room for loco and frequency but flybe are simply looking to replace Loganair.

it's about time the IOM admitted it isn't jersey. Smaller population and smaller economy. Zero economy of scale