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London City-4

Old 23rd Oct 2022, 14:25
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Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot
It's the E290 that flies to LCY, not the longer E295. If the Airbus A320 was a serious contender then surely BA would be the first to evaluate one, but they never did. Even the A319 would be decidedly large for the extended Eastern apron.
The E295 is/will be certificated for LCY and they expect KLM to start using it in the near future. https://simpleflying.com/1st-embraer...-city-airport/

https://www.embraercommercialaviatio...-city-airport/
The visit, in anticipation of the aircraft’s certification for steep approach into London City at the end of this year…While the immediate focus is certification, we are hopeful that we will see the first E195-E2 in operation next year with KLM which will be real cause of celebration.”
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 14:44
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flap40

Above is a screenshot from a cockpit video on youtube of an A220 flight into LCY. Note the aircraft types painted on the ground.

A320???

Does LCY know something the the rest of the world doesn't?
No, somebody has gone to their big box of Airport Stencils and pulled out the one's they need - the gap between nose and nosewheel is the same for each variant.
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 16:51
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Originally Posted by Flap40

Above is a screenshot from a cockpit video on youtube of an A220 flight into LCY. Note the aircraft types painted on the ground.

A320???

Does LCY know something the the rest of the world doesn't?
All a bit irrelevant anyway given that LCY doesn't do nose-in parking, but all are marshalled to face outwards.
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 17:10
  #124 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by WHBM
All a bit irrelevant anyway given that LCY doesn't do nose-in parking, but all are marshalled to face outwards.
actually you will notice these new markings face the Marshals, not the flight crew! Makes sense as the marshals use these markings to initiate the right turn. Turn in the wrong place and the plane doesn’t fit. So the markings are far from irrelevant!

Last edited by V_2; 23rd Oct 2022 at 17:21.
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 17:25
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What exactly is the issue with A319/320 if the E295 can get in? They are both within one meter of wingspan and the A319/320 is 7m/4m shorter than the E295 - and, for that matter, the A319 is even shorter than the E290)? While the A320 may struggle performance wise, the A319 has hot rod capabilities that are used to good effect elsewhere (China, Bhutan etc.). is it "just" the weights?
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 17:31
  #126 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by virginblue
What exactly is the issue with A319/320 if the E295 can get in? They are both within one meter of wingspan and the A319/320 is 7m/4m shorter than the E295 - and, for that matter, the A319 is even shorter than the E290)? While the A320 may struggle performance wise, the A319 has hot rod capabilities that are used to good effect elsewhere (China, Bhutan etc.). is it "just" the weights?
Not sure but I’d check what’s the minimum turning circle is like?
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 18:24
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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Wow, didn't know about them intending to fly the E295 in. They are just getting bigger and bigger every time! The A320 in BA config seats 180, EZY have 186, that's a proper step change and would overwhelm the still frankly small terminal. Even KLM's 132 on the E295 is a step-up from the already high 125 on the CS100. Careful what you wish for....the LCY USP to market is on getting in and out fast and with no fuss as there's not even one single lounge.
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 18:50
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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I recall about 10-15 years ago there was a rumour that Easyjet had enquired if it was possible to get the A319 certificated for LCY and wanted to operate on business routes but nothing more was ever heard.
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 22:31
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As I understand it, and always to be updated by the experts (see above ) there are a whole series of compliance parameters, including engine-out performance for easterly departures over the Gallions Reach bridge, and tail clearance when flaring on touchdown from the steep approach. It was this latter point that allowed in the E190, but not the E195, which is just a bit longer from the main undercarriage to the strike point of the rear fuselage. Presumably this is something addressed on the E295 - the once again fractionally shorter E290 is already in daily use by Helvetic, operating for Swiss to Geneva and Zurich.

Yes, we all know the Gallions Reach Bridge east of the airport has not been built, and likely never will be, but it's still a requirement to clear where it supposedly should be, adequately.
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 23:45
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Is there any point to the steep approach on westerlies?
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Old 24th Oct 2022, 07:59
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Yes, that same reasoning about the Gallions Reach bridge applies. You may well be foul of the existing road bridge across the east end of the airport as well.

I also suspect you might need co-ordination with shipping in the Thames, which currently is anything that will fit under the high bridge at Dartford, 180 feet I think. There's more large shipping still comes along the river there than is sometimes imagined.
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Old 26th Oct 2022, 09:44
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Would be interested to hear from experts if London City is more demanding that Paro where A319 with uprated engines and now even A320NEOs operate. IIRC correctly, one of the reasons why Airbus has kept the A319 in its NEO portfolio was the - somewhat limited - demand for a hot rod aircraft.
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Old 27th Oct 2022, 12:45
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Luxair to start London City to Antwerp

Luxair reconnects Antwerp Airport (Belgium) with London City - Aviation24.be

Bit of a thin schedule, only a few days a week, but possibly those times were the key ones in the old days when VLM/Cityjet/Air Antwerp (some shared ownership between them all behind the scenes I believe) did the route, which was held down for years. There was a long tradition that the diamond trade profession, centred for Europe in London and Antwerp (and the traders themselves living in a tight knot around Stoke Newington, not far from LCY), were who kept things going. There is of course no service from LCY to Brussels.

I wonder how Luxair are doing on LCY to Luxembourg, after the arrival of BA on the route. Most of the demand is from the Luxembourg end, and BA don't actively promote connections through LCY, so I would have thought Luxair could see them off.
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Old 27th Oct 2022, 13:08
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Originally Posted by WHBM
Luxair to start London City to Antwerp

Luxair reconnects Antwerp Airport (Belgium) with London City - Aviation24.be

Bit of a thin schedule, only a few days a week, but possibly those times were the key ones in the old days when VLM/Cityjet/Air Antwerp (some shared ownership between them all behind the scenes I believe) did the route, which was held down for years. There was a long tradition that the diamond trade profession, centred for Europe in London and Antwerp (and the traders themselves living in a tight knot around Stoke Newington, not far from LCY), were who kept things going. There is of course no service from LCY to Brussels.

I wonder how Luxair are doing on LCY to Luxembourg, after the arrival of BA on the route. Most of the demand is from the Luxembourg end, and BA don't actively promote connections through LCY, so I would have thought Luxair could see them off.
BA have dropped LUX from LCY (ends 30th Oct after just 5 months). Luxair seem to do well. Up to 6 daily so it seems to be going ok.
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Old 27th Oct 2022, 14:34
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Originally Posted by BA318
BA have dropped LUX from LCY (ends 30th Oct after just 5 months). Luxair seem to do well. Up to 6 daily so it seems to be going ok.
I could have told them ... Hello BA CityFlyer, I could have saved you maybe £1m+ on this venture, which had all the wrong elements. Send me a message
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Old 27th Oct 2022, 17:07
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Originally Posted by WHBM
I could have told them ... Hello BA CityFlyer, I could have saved you maybe £1m+ on this venture, which had all the wrong elements. Send me a message
Same with MXP, one daily, up against ITA multi daily to LIN and the rest of London with heavy MXP schedules
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Old 27th Oct 2022, 18:31
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I think it's a bit more of a challenge at Milan, where I understand there are some rather one-sided rules about who can operate at Linate (which CityJet used to serve properly from LCY). Of course, the UK government could step in (like other governments would) and say if BA can't do it, ITA (the new Alitalia) can't. But the government probably never notice such things.
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Old 27th Oct 2022, 19:39
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Originally Posted by WHBM
I think it's a bit more of a challenge at Milan, where I understand there are some rather one-sided rules about who can operate at Linate (which CityJet used to serve properly from LCY). Of course, the UK government could step in (like other governments would) and say if BA can't do it, ITA (the new Alitalia) can't. But the government probably never notice such things.
BA used to lease slots from Meridiana / Air Italy, they’re no longer, so the BA LIN operation is no longer. LHR also reduced for the same reason
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Old 27th Oct 2022, 19:55
  #139 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by WHBM
I think it's a bit more of a challenge at Milan, where I understand there are some rather one-sided rules about who can operate at Linate (which CityJet used to serve properly from LCY). Of course, the UK government could step in (like other governments would) and say if BA can't do it, ITA (the new Alitalia) can't. But the government probably never notice such things.
in short my take on it is Linate have denied CityFlyer slots for years claiming there were none left. CityFlyer managed to get slots via Air Italy which was a short lived airline owned by Qatar, who own a large share of IAG, who own BA, who own BACF. This worked until Air Italy closed and BACF lost the borrowed slots.despite Italia going bankrupt and all their slots becoming available, somehow Linate claim all those slots are now not available again, so no LIN route. “If you are so desperate to serve Milan, why aren’t you even going to MXP?”. So BACF kept one daily to play the game, but unsurprisingly it’s not worked. The joke is ITA can’t even fly the LCY-LIN route themselves and have to wet lease German Airways.
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Old 27th Oct 2022, 20:07
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Originally Posted by V_2
in short my take on it is Linate have denied CityFlyer slots for years claiming there were none left. CityFlyer managed to get slots via Air Italy which was a short lived airline owned by Qatar, who own a large share of IAG, who own BA, who own BACF. This worked until Air Italy closed and BACF lost the borrowed slots.despite Italia going bankrupt and all their slots becoming available, somehow Linate claim all those slots are now not available again, so no LIN route. “If you are so desperate to serve Milan, why aren’t you even going to MXP?”. So BACF kept one daily to play the game, but unsurprisingly it’s not worked. The joke is ITA can’t even fly the LCY-LIN route themselves and have to wet lease German Airways.
Slot leases started long before QR ownership of Air Italy, in the meridiana days. Wonder who picked up the 4 daily slots - ITA no doubt !
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