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Southampton-3

Old 28th Oct 2022, 10:18
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Originally Posted by shamrock7seal
The only way this airport survives is regional flying,
I agree with you that the LCC market won't neccessarily be the golden goose the airport might think it is. But, the problem is, what is the future of regional flying in the UK looking like? Loganair reported a small profit, but it's only a profit margin of 3%. Cityflyer lost £50m* last year and are reducing their fleet. We've no idea what the finances for the new Flybe look like but their load factor is 50%. Hard to see how you make money these days on a Dash 8 flying, on average, 39 people around. (*I accept these finances were based on a covid impacted year so might be different next time out)

The regional market isn't exactly bouncing with opportunities for the airport so they either cut their cloth accordingly or try to entice the LCCs in.
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Old 28th Oct 2022, 10:54
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Originally Posted by shamrock7seal
The point that everyone seems to miss with this runway extension is that it's only 164m. It doesn't change the landing distance available at one end, only the other. It doesn't widen the runway. The obstacles are still there i.e the hill and the train sheds. Yes the trees are being lowered but this is simply not enough to allow unrestricted operations for LCC's with A320's operating to the med. They will still experience payload penalties, wet runway issues, and operating hour restrictions. That last one is a killer for any airline wishing to operate with a high utilisation.

If they do manage to attract an LCC or two, it won't last long. I'm not trying to be negative. I'm just stating the facts.

The only way this airport survives is regional flying, unrestricted regional flying, connecting to hubs, get Paris back! They need to build the business park in order to allow them to generate an income which isn't only aviation - this plugs the £4.5m gap. In theory. But attracting an LCC that doesn't want to pay aviation fee's will worsen the financial situation of SOU not improve it.
Blimey does that enormous BOH hat still fit you?
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Old 28th Oct 2022, 11:02
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They will still experience payload penalties, wet runway issues, and operating hour restrictions. That last one is a killer for any airline wishing to operate with a high utilisation.
Airfield operations 06.30 – 21.30 (Contact us for out of hours requests)
https://www.bournemouthairport.com/a...t-information/
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Old 28th Oct 2022, 11:15
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Extensions at BOH are given on a daily basis to TUI and Ryanair to arrive 23:30-01:30. Good luck getting SOU to do similar or indeed for the local community to agree to it - the airport is smack bang in the middle of the city.
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Old 28th Oct 2022, 11:37
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Originally Posted by shamrock7seal
Extensions at BOH are given on a daily basis to TUI and Ryanair to arrive 23:30-01:30. Good luck getting SOU to do similar or indeed for the local community to agree to it - the airport is smack bang in the middle of the city.
Please get your facts right, most of the airport (except for a few hundred metres at the south end of the runway) is outside the city limits and within the Borough of Eastleigh - which is by no way a suburb of Southampton.

It's Southampton International Airport, not Southampton City Airport!

Last edited by TCAS FAN; 28th Oct 2022 at 15:25.
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Old 28th Oct 2022, 12:06
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Originally Posted by shamrock7seal
Extensions at BOH are given on a daily basis to TUI and Ryanair to arrive 23:30-01:30. Good luck getting SOU to do similar or indeed for the local community to agree to it - the airport is smack bang in the middle of the city.
As indicated in my post 1044 the past problem was not the Section 106 Agreement which prevented late arrivals, it was staffing issues, particularly ATC, which caused the diversions of some delayed arrivals, which were (and may still be) permitted provided that they were scheduled in before 2300HR.

With regards to ATC manning the minimum staffing was two ATCOs for TWR and APS provision. This has, in the past few years, been reduced with CAA approval given for combining both services with one ATCO in the tower. Consequently, from an ATC manning viewpoint delayed arrivals may be a workable option. That said I understand that SOU AGS staff are on the verge of industrial action in support of a pay claim, so yet another hurdle for SOU to negotiate.
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Old 28th Oct 2022, 15:49
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So you're saying SOU will be prepared (subject to staffing) to be open regularly up to 23:00 once the extension is completed?

For a based LCC to make arrivals in before 23:00 is still, in my humble opinion, too tight. They need the flex to 00:00 or 01:00 to make it work factoring in delays and preventing diversions to alternates.
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Old 28th Oct 2022, 16:23
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Originally Posted by shamrock7seal
So you're saying SOU will be prepared (subject to staffing) to be open regularly up to 23:00 once the extension is completed?

For a based LCC to make arrivals in before 23:00 is still, in my humble opinion, too tight. They need the flex to 00:00 or 01:00 to make it work factoring in delays and preventing diversions to alternates.
I am no longer involved in determining airport operating policy/business strategy, so cannot possibly comment on any ability for SOU to routinely extend beyond normal published operating hours.

I view of the inference that no arrivals after 2300HR were permitted, all I have attempted to do is impart my understanding of the original provisions of the Section 106 agreement in respect of not permitting scheduling of arrivals after 2300. This may have changed in which case I invite any thread readers, who may have a copy of the 106 currently in place, to confirm/update this understanding.

Furthermore, I have highlighted what has changed with ATC manning requirements, which formerly required two ATCOs to provide service over. Provision of ATC cover, which invariably caused diversions, should therefore technically be easier to facilitate.
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Old 28th Oct 2022, 18:25
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Some positive news to add. EasyJet have now added a Friday service to Geneva from February to make it 6 flights a week for the last couple of months of the ski season. So. 2 x sat. Sun. Tue. Thur and now Friday.
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Old 1st Nov 2022, 13:14
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Dublin restarts

Taking off to Dublin with Aer Lingus - On SOU's Facebook today.
Visit the capital of Ireland, and experience its rich history, cosmopolitan atmosphere along with many great independent shops, cafes, and restaurants.
Head to the Aer Lingus website to book your trip now!

Great - but does it connect with the EI USA (and Canada) flights so we can get pre-clearance at DUB >?

Also re TUI at BOH late flights this season saw many running late flights end up going to STN and LGW because they were late back and BOH would be closed - TUI customer loyalty has been damaged and anyone booking a flight with a return landing STA at BOH after 23:00 be warned.
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Old 1st Nov 2022, 16:49
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[QUOTE=shamrock7seal;11321669]So you're saying SOU will be prepared (subject to staffing) to be open regularly up to 23:00 once the extension is completed?

For a based LCC to make arrivals in before 23:00 is still, in my humble opinion, too tight. They need the flex to 00:00 or 01:00 to make it work factoring in delays and preventing diversions to alternates.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by rog747
.........................

Also re TUI at BOH late flights this season saw many running late flights end up going to STN and LGW because they were late back and BOH would be closed - TUI customer loyalty has been damaged and anyone booking a flight with a return landing STA at BOH after 23:00 be warned.
Looks as if even the flex 00:00 to 01:00 doesn't always work?
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Old 1st Nov 2022, 17:21
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[QUOTE=TCAS FAN;11323791]
Originally Posted by shamrock7seal
So you're saying SOU will be prepared (subject to staffing) to be open regularly up to 23:00 once the extension is completed?

For a based LCC to make arrivals in before 23:00 is still, in my humble opinion, too tight. They need the flex to 00:00 or 01:00 to make it work factoring in delays and preventing diversions to alternates.[/QUOTE]



Looks as if even the flex 00:00 to 01:00 doesn't always work?
It works unless there is a long delay on the flight. The TUI diverts, and I believe there were several over the season, were due to a late running flight, they seemed good - usually till 01:30 - but beyond that not. The Airport actually advertises H24 availability by arrangement. I think this year has been exceptional everywhere for staff sickness and staff shortages generally.

The general point about LCC is correct though, they need early and late slots every day, the ability to run six sectors a day, a terminal that can cope with the passenger volumes, need for parking bays, and a runway that has sufficient capability to permit unrestricted flights to their chosen destinations. And in some cases, CATIII ILS. If any one of those elements is missing, then the prospect of LCC base diminishes. LGW for instance fails for Jet2 on the slot availability - probably until the northern (standby) runway is approved for regular use - 2030 ish. Or, for example, if EZY were to be sold to IAG, and has as a result to relinquish some of their existing portfolio at LGW.


FF
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Old 1st Nov 2022, 17:55
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Flitefone
You make some valid points that illustrate that conditions for any LCC to operate from Southampton cannot be met!. Therefore the runway extension will not attract such operations.However it will accommodate larger aircraft on current Summer Mediterranean destinations,and that's about it.Let's hope this is enough to make the airport profitable.
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Old 1st Nov 2022, 23:08
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Originally Posted by RW20
Flitefone
You make some valid points that illustrate that conditions for any LCC to operate from Southampton cannot be met!. Therefore the runway extension will not attract such operations.However it will accommodate larger aircraft on current Summer Mediterranean destinations,and that's about it.Let's hope this is enough to make the airport profitable.
Letís get this right, you admit the airport will attract larger aircraft to summer destinations yet never attract a LCC. Please do not underestimate this airport for the future!
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Old 1st Nov 2022, 23:23
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Just to be clear, I'm saying the likes of Tui, etc could use 320s instead of cityflyer 195,therefore offering twice capacity.However the restrictions of opening times,etc is not a workable position for a based LCC. It's not happening in 2023,so fingers crossed for 2024.
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Old 2nd Nov 2022, 20:47
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A planned one-day strike by staff at Southampton Airport has been called off following an improved pay offer. Workers including airside operations controllers, firefighters, technicians and engineers had been due to walk out on 5, 12 and 19 November.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-63484053
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Old 9th Nov 2022, 14:39
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Originally Posted by TCAS FAN

.......................................

First hoop, before any work can commence, is CAA approval of the overall project planning and execution plan.

The CAA are not renowned for their speed of work, so hopefully the CAP 791 process has already been commenced by AGS.

Part of the planning process is recognition of the impact that the construction work will have on any aircraft movements, and putting in place mitigation measures to ensure that they can safely continue.

An overview of the project, its scheduling and its temporary impact on aircraft movements will be most likely be set out in a UK AIP Supplement, which itself may have short term issues highlighted or notified via NOTAM as the project progresses.

When the AIP Supplement is published it can be accessed online via:

https://nats-uk.ead-it.com/cms-nats/...p-supplements/

AIP Supplements are published every 28 days. As of today nothing is currently shown. The next batch of Supplements are due for publication on 17 November.

...........
Have been able to preview the 17 November AIP Supplements, nothing shown related to the runway extension, so no ground breaking until at least 15 December. Will provide an update in about four weeks, unless the AGS media machine or another source has by then already revealed a start date.
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Old 9th Nov 2022, 15:27
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Originally Posted by TCAS FAN
Have been able to preview the 17 November AIP Supplements, nothing shown related to the runway extension, so no ground breaking until at least 15 December. Will provide an update in about four weeks, unless the AGS media machine or another source has by then already revealed a start date.
Early April for first spades in the ground, thatís the current plan!
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Old 9th Nov 2022, 16:07
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Originally Posted by TCAS FAN
Have been able to preview the 17 November AIP Supplements, nothing shown related to the runway extension, so no ground breaking until at least 15 December. Will provide an update in about four weeks, unless the AGS media machine or another source has by then already revealed a start date.
​​​​​​TCAS FAN

It's becoming clearer that when the extension works will start is a lot later then expected. Surely the works would have been better being done winter 22/23 ,rather than as suggested by other contributors starting in April 23?
If this is the case then the extension will not provide any advantage to the airport to at least 2024,given that the work might not be complete to early Winter 2023.
The airport was cleared to go ahead with its plans in early August 2022,this seems a long time to completion. In addition to this the height restrictions on approach to 02 and take off 20 are yet to be resolved,and with the extinction rebellion chomping at the bit,will they?
It's a very unsatisfactory situation the airport management should have resolved long ago

Last edited by RW20; 9th Nov 2022 at 16:22.
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Old 9th Nov 2022, 16:16
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It's becoming clearer that when the extension works will start is a lot later then expected.
Expected by whom? Anybody here know whats involved in organising and financing such a project? Availability of contractors? Regulatory approval? etc
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