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Luton-10

Old 2nd Jan 2022, 14:03
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Originally Posted by davidjohnson6
I don't have personal knowledge of the matter... but one wants to be very careful about making public suggestions over possible irregular inducements of money if one doesn't have the evidence to support what one is saying. Lawyers have a habit of getting quite upset over this kind of thing
That said, if you do have evidence, it may be better to pass it to some body which has the clout to handle the matter
Anyone who has a basic knowledge of the industry will know that virtually every airport outside of the major hubs offers inducements to airlines to entice them to operate there - whether it be fuel, fees etc. This is hardly exclusive to Luton - the theory being is that the economic input from passenger numbers vastly outweighs the cost to the airport.
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Old 2nd Jan 2022, 17:20
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Anyone who has a basic knowledge of the industry will know that virtually every airport outside of the major hubs offers inducements to airlines to entice them to operate there - whether it be fuel, fees etc. This is hardly exclusive to Luton - the theory being is that the economic input from passenger numbers vastly outweighs the cost to the airport.

Indeed!.....Most of Ryanair's early growth in Europe at the minor airports miles from anywhere was funded in this way! When some stopped the payments RYR had a habit of terminating service!
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Old 2nd Jan 2022, 17:59
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Reduced fees to encourage the start of new routes offered in a neutral and transparent way by a public sector company to all comers with everything going through the books and clearly auditable is one thing. Talking about wads of cash in brown envelopes is suggestive of something quite different
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Old 2nd Jan 2022, 18:01
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Yes absolutely, as economies of scale kick in when thresholds are reached but traditionally discounts are usually offered just for new routes. That might well have changed now as the airlines like Wizz hold all the cards and would appear to call the shots in a depressed market.

So why did a council desperately short of airport income agree to the airport operator keeping an additional £45m in fees spread over 3 years and what is that money going to be used for when there will already be no dividend for at least the next 5 years?

Last edited by LTNman; 2nd Jan 2022 at 18:20.
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 19:21
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Flights by SkyUp that were loaded again onto their website last November due to start March 2022 seem to have disappeared again. maybe another re-think going on.
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 22:05
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Originally Posted by Teaboy24
Flights by SkyUp that were loaded again onto their website last November due to start March 2022 seem to have disappeared again. maybe another re-think going on.
Apparently they donít yet have authorisation to start the flights yet. Not sure what that means exactly but what I was told.
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Old 4th Jan 2022, 12:48
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According to ACL, Flyr, SkyUp and Sky Express have applied for S22 slots (136, 186 & 150 respectively), and have been placed on the waitlist. Due to upgrading of aircraft types by Wizzair (A320>A321) and EasyJet (A319>A320), I suspect they are unlikely to be successful within the new 19m pax cap.

In addition, Ryanair, Blue Air, Wizzair, EasyJet, Sun Express and even TUI requested additional slots - most were refused.

Last edited by LGS6753; 4th Jan 2022 at 12:57. Reason: More info
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Old 4th Jan 2022, 14:33
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Originally Posted by LGS6753
According to ACL, Flyr, SkyUp and Sky Express have applied for S22 slots (136, 186 & 150 respectively), and have been placed on the waitlist. Due to upgrading of aircraft types by Wizzair (A320>A321) and EasyJet (A319>A320), I suspect they are unlikely to be successful within the new 19m pax cap.

In addition, Ryanair, Blue Air, Wizzair, EasyJet, Sun Express and even TUI requested additional slots - most were refused.
If Flyr were to be successful, I'm guessing that would open up routes to Oslo, which is their main base.

Interesting, as the airport doesn't have a good track record with flights to Scandinavia. easyJet have tried Stockholm and Copenhagen with little success and Wizz Air tried numerous locations in Norway about two years ago before COVID (including Oslo), and these were also pulled.

Sky Express is an interesting one, as the Greek carrier are already operating flights between Heathrow and Athens.

Despite Wizz Air moving the Luton to Athens route to Gatwick, Ryanair continue to operate and Sky Express' other hubs in Heraklion and Thessaloniki are already pretty well served by easyJet and Wizz Air.
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Old 4th Jan 2022, 14:36
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Can London-Oslo really support BA, SAS, Norwegian, Ryanair and Flyr all flying nonstop ?
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Old 4th Jan 2022, 16:46
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Originally Posted by LGS6753
According to ACL, Flyr, SkyUp and Sky Express have applied for S22 slots (136, 186 & 150 respectively), and have been placed on the waitlist. Due to upgrading of aircraft types by Wizzair (A320>A321) and EasyJet (A319>A320), I suspect they are unlikely to be successful within the new 19m pax cap.

In addition, Ryanair, Blue Air, Wizzair, EasyJet, Sun Express and even TUI requested additional slots - most were refused.
It doesn't matter what size aircraft the airlines put on there is no chance that the cap will be reached this year or next. Anyway the cap is still 18m as the government has put a hold on the expansion.
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Old 4th Jan 2022, 17:33
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Originally Posted by Dannyboy39
Anyone who has a basic knowledge of the industry will know that virtually every airport outside of the major hubs offers inducements to airlines to entice them to operate there - whether it be fuel, fees etc. This is hardly exclusive to Luton - the theory being is that the economic input from passenger numbers vastly outweighs the cost to the airport.
Exactly. Just usual tired personal agendas being flogged to every inch of their death rather than rational contributions.
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Old 4th Jan 2022, 17:37
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Originally Posted by davidjohnson6
Can London-Oslo really support BA, SAS, Norwegian, Ryanair and Flyr all flying nonstop ?
The number of flights is hugely down on two years ago. But then I guess so is demandÖ

Flyrís international routes have been only two or three times a week though so they wonít really add much.
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Old 4th Jan 2022, 18:16
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I think Luton definitely showed it can support a Copenhagen route in pax numbers but maybe the yield wasn't there.

I think at one point it was the most popular route by pax numbers from the airport, when easyJet and Ryanair were both operating it several times a day.

Ryanair forced easy off the route and then pulled the route themselves. I guess it remains to be seen how they would react if someone else tried it again.
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Old 4th Jan 2022, 18:23
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Ryanair and Easyjet offering Luton to Copenhagen about 6 years ago for £10 one way, below the cost of APD, and maybe 4 flights per day each way was not a normal situation - it was just an old fashioned fare war of 2 large airlines competing for overall dominance to see who would generally back down first. Ryanair won the dominance war.

I don't believe what happened is a valid indicator of the Luton-Scandi market
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Old 4th Jan 2022, 19:11
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Flyr might work as an under the radar route marketed from the Scandinavian side as just London.
Sky Express is more likely spreading options if the LHR slots had to be handed back.
Can't see WZZ giving up anything so expect more from them once routes transfer to LGW.
TUI is an interesting one, I did hear from another source about use of W patterns which would not need another base unit and could be used in conjunction with planned engineering and save empty positioning flights.
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Old 4th Jan 2022, 20:26
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Luton-Copenhagen peaked with 4 flights each way per day per carrier - total 8 daily! It didn't last long, and I see that in the latest ACL report, Ryanair are to leave the route altogether.
For what it's worth, I can't see the Scandinavian market as a very lucrative one. Finland, Sweden and Norway are large countries with very sparse populations. There are, as far as I know, no large expat communities of any of these countries - or Denmark - in the UK and all four countries, whilst affluent, do not have huge economies. So it's likely that the market will only be normal business/tourism demand.
Sky Express may be concerned at the increasing cost of LHR too.
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Old 4th Jan 2022, 21:12
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Originally Posted by LGS6753
Luton-Copenhagen peaked with 4 flights each way per day per carrier - total 8 daily! It didn't last long, and I see that in the latest ACL report, Ryanair are to leave the route altogether.
For what it's worth, I can't see the Scandinavian market as a very lucrative one. Finland, Sweden and Norway are large countries with very sparse populations. There are, as far as I know, no large expat communities of any of these countries - or Denmark - in the UK and all four countries, whilst affluent, do not have huge economies. So it's likely that the market will only be normal business/tourism demand.
Sky Express may be concerned at the increasing cost of LHR too.
There is huge expat communities from Scandinavia in London. Outside of US and Scandinavia, London is the largest Swedish expat community. Itís likely to be the same for most other Nordic countries. We also travel a lot. Almost every person I know here in Stockholm has been to London and plenty of people are very regular visitors for tourism and shopping.

The BA and SAS flights are also helped by connecting passengers. A lot of search sites offer SAS to LHR and then connecting to VS or Star Alliance carriers or BA via LHR.

As for population, while not densely populated some cities are still sizeable. 2.4million of us in metropolitan Stockholm area. Basically a quarter of the countries population in one place. The Oresund region (Copenhagen/MalmŲ) has around 3.7m people. So they are quite large areas with wealthy populations.
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Old 5th Jan 2022, 09:05
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BA318 -
I bow to your superior knowledge.
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Old 5th Jan 2022, 09:32
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Originally Posted by LGS6753
BA318 -
I bow to your superior knowledge.
I think one problem is that in Sweden at least itís a bit of a fussy market. People are loyal to BA and SAS. Ryanair did ok and they have now moved their service to Arlanda which should help. Norwegian has a pretty rubbish reputation (at least in my circles) for often being delayed and most people we know wouldnít use them.

But flights are massively down. I commuted between Stockholm and London weekly between 2016-2021 (including through out the pandemic) and we went from SAS having 5 daily and BA also up to 5 daily on LHR-ARN to at best now 2 daily each. There is a lot of market to come back but the testing requirements for UK mean we havenít been back since September. Last time it cost us more in tests than our flights cost us!
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Old 5th Jan 2022, 19:35
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6 European NetJets due in tonight after returning stateside. Part of the mass invasion of Reykjavik on 23/12 routing to the states over holiday period.

Last edited by pabely; 5th Jan 2022 at 21:46.
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