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Old 10th Aug 2020, 06:26
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Does it make sense to keep a handful of services, ie the L/H flights at LGW, if the S/H flights as Turin suggests are moved to LHR.
By removing the 744 fleet from the system this releases the stands. Presumably the unused slots need covering too otherwise they will be lost. LHR slots are more valuable than LGW slots
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 07:43
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Daily Telegraph & others this morning report BA cuts £1 a week allowance for first aiders.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 09:35
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Originally Posted by Cloud1 View Post
I also still think there may be some meat to the bones of an idea that City Flyer could fill some void at LGW operating sun and leisure city routes with LCY significantly reduced to core business traffic - and as such a reduced portfolio.
I mentioned this a few months back but it was batted off because of Mainline contracts and some clauses within them.
Surely with whatís gone on recently, the answer could now be different?
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 09:39
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Originally Posted by nowhereasfiled View Post
I mentioned this a few months back but it was batted off because of Mainline contracts and some clauses within them.
Surely with whatís gone on recently, the answer could now be different?
I think we should be looking at things very differently now. Just because itís not been possible in the past doesnít mean itís not possible now. It would also enable efficiencies using the same BA branding rather than IAG (BA/EI sharing common handling etc). Also CF wouldnít need to do any domestics and leave that to EZY...instead they could do some of the city destinations not extensively served already. Would be easier to fill an E190.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 09:52
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But you won't profitably match EZY fares with an E190. CF FlyBe and the 195.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 10:26
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Originally Posted by Cloud1 View Post
I also still think there may be some meat to the bones of an idea that City Flyer could fill some void at LGW operating sun and leisure city routes with LCY significantly reduced to core business traffic - and as such a reduced portfolio.
I am not sure what the benefit of this would be. Why move routes from LCY where there is limited competition so presumably reasonable returns, to LGW where you would be up against EZY and others? As mentioned elsewhere, I don't believe the maths of flying an E190 stack up against an A320 or B738.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 10:30
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Originally Posted by southside bobby View Post
Daily Telegraph & others this morning report BA cuts £1 a week allowance for first aiders.
Our line manager cut that years ago. Refused to keep a first aider trained up just to save £52/year.

We don't have first aiders anymore.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 12:01
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Originally Posted by commit aviation View Post
I am not sure what the benefit of this would be. Why move routes from LCY where there is limited competition so presumably reasonable returns, to LGW where you would be up against EZY and others? As mentioned elsewhere, I don't believe the maths of flying an E190 stack up against an A320 or B738.
Willywombat and yourself are assuming CF would compete with EZY. There will be some routes I am sure that are either not served by EZY or will have marginal return on the Airbus. It will be up to the analysts to identify those but serving niche routes could return decent yield.

LCY isnít that useful without business connectivity which will decline for a period. For the few that can access central London easily, LCY works but it is easy enough to train it to LGW or LHR as an alternative. CF could keep the key business routes to and from Amsterdam, Scotland and Ireland etc and readjust their non core business and leisure. Florence as an example is served by Vueling from LGW but not at the same frequency; that could transfer to CF along with introducing some niche routes like San SebastiŠn. This is just two routes but I am sure others could be identified. Besides EasyJet and Ryanair offer low fares and obtain profit on their ancillaries. Buy on Board has all but stopped and with customers being advised to check in as much as they can to reduce movement in the cabin the adding on of baggage suddenly sees those low fares increase.

Itís just a thought but without any access to the numbers of then and now/predicted itís hard to gauge demand on routes and what cost increases there are to handling flights, which will potentially be passed back to the consumer anyway.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 12:19
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I agree some of your points are reasonable and as a short term solution, maybe for domestics as well, the lower trip costs of an EMB vs 320 or 737 could be useful. However problem one is that I don’t think BA care enough about LGW to come up with an innovative solution (would love to be proved wrong) and problem two is that if you build up a route on an EMB to a level where it’s profitable, a RYR or an EZY or even these days a WIZ fancies having a go at it and there is a maxim to the effect that in a competitive situation, eventually the lower/lowest cost provider will always win.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 12:36
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I doubt BA flying an E190 from any London airport to San Sebastian will work outside July/August, even in a normal year
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 14:17
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Originally Posted by Cloud1 View Post
Would be easier to fill an E190.
You need to fill the ERJ at a premium to compete, this works at LCY as the mix is more affluent and the competition restricted. Flying ERJs against A320s is partly what killed flybe, as they had to compete on price.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 15:04
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BAW/CFE with the ERJ co-habited over several previous summer season weekends in the lions den at STN.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 16:25
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But the STN flights operated, I am sure, on a marginal cost basis which is ok for a small part of your business if you haven’t got anything better to do with the asset, but you can’t run a significant chunk of your business like that. I’ve often wondered if that was part of Flybe’s problem. I’d love to see some of their management accounts.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 17:02
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Probably a fair observation WW regarding BAW/CFE & with BEE the killer was said many times to be the original Embraer lease rate deal.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 20:14
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Originally Posted by Cloud1 View Post
I also still think there may be some meat to the bones of an idea that City Flyer could fill some void at LGW operating sun and leisure city routes with LCY significantly reduced to core business traffic - and as such a reduced portfolio.
What has made BA CityFlyer do well on Mediterranean routes at London City is the ability to mesh operations with those same "core business" routes. There is not equal 24x7 demand for business travel, and BACF have developed over time a very efficient model. Starting with one Med round trip in between morning and evening business high demand, they have exploited different demand patterns for different days of the week (business travel is very different on Fridays), and different times of year. Not all the routes run all the time - Nice is cut back most winters, a personal inconvenience, and surprising as BA from Heathrow and Gatwick do not cut back their frequent multiple daily flights, but there we are. You won't get any of this with a separate fleet at Gatwick.

It's also something of a myth that travel there is wholly connected with Canary Wharf - its catchment area spreads wide, as is apparent from conversation with those seated alongside me. It's the most convenient for Central London, especially those doing day return trips, and you find people from outer London, Essex, Kent etc make a considerable proportion of the load. One regular traveller I know from London to Athens finds it quicker to use Swiss, connecting at Zurich, than trek out to Heathrow or Gatwick for a direct flight.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 20:25
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..........
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 20:51
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This is the time that senior management will earn their corn, they will either make or break BA with decisions made in the next few weeks. It is very difficult to keep a major corporation at the top of the game all the time, many have got to the top and then faded away due poor senior management decisions.

So BA seems like they want to dump Lgw, apart from a few LH routes. BA has never been fully committed to Lgw. I remember many years ago, when you could still get paper copies of the timetable, being amused at the way that Lhr was always pushed over Lgw on routes that were flown from both airports, even when the Lhr connections were not quite so good, e.g Gla-Lgw/Lhr-xxx.

Various reports state that travel will not recover to 2019 levels until 2022, or 2023, or 2024. In terms of the lifetime of a large corporation like BA, those 3 or 4 years are but a blink. If they give up most of their slots at Lgw, which are considerable in number, what happens when travel is back to 2019 levels? Lhr will be full and Lgw may well be nearing capacity as well. A third runway at Lhr still years away. When they need to expand, where will they go - Southend? I see some airlines saying they will emerge a smaller carrier. Long term, they won't exist as they will have been taken over. Standing still means going backwards in reality. Interesting times ahead for our London, sorry national carrier, which might not be our national carrier a few years from now.

Wonder how long it will be before Ezy apply for some slots in BA's home turf?
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 22:28
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Great points made True Blue. Here would be my take on this. BA will not want to make access by Wizz and Ryanair into LGW easy as they would certainly impact LHR yield. BA will be waiting to see what the slot usage rules look like for Winter. If they are strict BA will double down on LHR, makes sense. Very fluid situation. Beyond the obvious LGW poor relation position for BA, we are now looking into a transformed cost base that will give BA (Aer Lingus style cost transformation) the tools to fight easyJet on a sustainable footing. Let's hope BA think long term.

They are faced with some multifaceted challenges to solve..
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 22:53
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The reason BA didn’t love Gatwick is because BA was a full service airline offering connections, had in house engineering and handling and also various franchise partners. All were additional costs against almost everyone else at LGW. So whereas BA could command a LHR premium, they couldn’t do the same at LGW. The way to profitability was to cut, slash and simplify. The hub went, handling was outsourced, engineering was cut way back. The “hand me down” fleet ex LHR was supplemented by 3rd hand A320s, something of first for BA. Hence they seemed to get into the black on point to point leisure routes, all of which are actually non core to everything at LHR. Overlap and duplication is the first to go in a travel slump, followed by routes that don’t support the wider strategy (feeding US long haul at LHR, and yes that’s also screwed).

I think the V shaped recovery wasn’t an option for travel. I said months ago this summer was lost, the winter is lost too, any bounce back will be next summer. So it makes no business sense to fly what was already a greatly pruned short haul winter program in this worst of winters out of LGW.

Also worth remebering, easyJet are also in a horrible place, everyone is.
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Old 11th Aug 2020, 08:53
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The scope agreement would prohibit CFE operating from Gatwick for any length of time. I think the removal of that would be redline for BALPA and rightly so.
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