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Flybe-9

Old 3rd Feb 2020, 15:44
  #3121 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 317
The problem for Flybe, or particularly it's employees is yet again it's about to live on handouts. I was flight crew at Flybe for a long time and I got out last year when the handouts dried up because it was evident what was coming. For this airline to survive it has to start making money as a stand alone airline, something it never did in all my time there apart from 1 year under Hamad. The bottom line is it can't keep living on handouts and that would scare the crap out of me as an employee (because it did). During my tenure the handouts were not exclusive to the following list; The Walker Trust giving French money to transfer it to Flybe from British European. The acquisition of BA Connect, the Olympic Airways contract, the flotation on the stock market, the sale of next gen Dashes plus options to South African Airways, the sale of the Gatwick slots to easyjet, the Brussels Airlines wet lease contract, Hamad going to the city for another 150m. All this adds up to hundreds and hundreds of millions of pounds and yet here we are years down the line and absolutely nothing has changed. French and his cronies did nothing during the worst recession in living memory, The COW was appointed as CEO with no credentials whatsoever and sat there for two years and did nothing, Anderson and Connect Airways have now been sat there approaching a year and have done absolutely nothing. Say what you like about Hamad but at least he saved the company in 2011/12 and saved my job. If I had the final decision within the Treasury I'd be asking serious questions as to how this airline not only intends on standing on its own two feet as an airline, but rather how it's going to turn things around not only to make a profit but also how it intends on paying back the handouts. I find it hard to believe it only took the government two days to ascertain that it was a viable business to enable a deferral of the tax bill when it normally takes any other CEO and their team a couple of months.
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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 15:54
  #3122 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: London
Posts: 356
Do not launch luxembourg from lcy and dusseldorf from lhr with my money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 16:27
  #3123 (permalink)  
MDS
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Spain
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If any money is transferred from HMG to Flybe it's an absolute travesty and disgrace. The consortium clearly has enough money to fund this themselves, but prefer the taxpayer to do it instead.

If airports such as BHD, SOU, and EXT are allegedly completely unviable without Flybe - what will this "loan" do besides go down the toilet when they're back in this position in a few months?

Since getting the extension on APD, they're opening routes to Luxembourg and Dusseldorf - not exactly vital UK infrastructure! I'm sure Mary in Cornwall and Bob in Belfast are going to breathe a sigh of relief to know their essential connection from LCY-LUX has been saved.

Let it fail, and let another airline take its place.

Please give me a legitimate reason as to why there's serious discussions of the taxpayer funding the Virgin Group and funding a capital hedge fund?! I don't mean sentimental spiel about how good the airline was back in 98' either.

Also, give me one good reason as to why the owners won't fund this themselves? The only reason I can see is that they see it as commercially unpalatable - therefore a complete waste.

I want Flybe to survive but it's absolutely down to the owners to fix this mess, not spunking taxpayer cash up the wall!

Last edited by MDS; 3rd Feb 2020 at 16:39.
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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 16:50
  #3124 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
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if they're that important, someone else ill fill the gap
Not sure who though, there's not exactly a magic tree of regional airlines that could immediately throw suitable capacity at this in the required locations, is there?
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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 17:05
  #3125 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ballymena
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So if Flybe gets some sort of subsidy to operate all these essential routes. Flybe operates Bhd - Gla, Edi, Man to state a few. So does Ezy from Bfs. Why would the Bhd routes deserve a subsidy?
True Blue is online now  
Old 3rd Feb 2020, 17:17
  #3126 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by Wycombe View Post
Not sure who though, there's not exactly a magic tree of regional airlines that could immediately throw suitable capacity at this in the required locations, is there?
Oh, but there is.

Enter Stobart, the other AOC in the consortium - fold Flybe, get rid of all the "fat", reassign the assets (Dash 8's - which, would be relatively safe from any FlyBe administrator), and start up the "good" routes once again with very minimal disruption to service. In so doing, you'll accomplish the necessary redundancies which have been on the cards for a few months now, and put the FlyBe pilots that want their jobs on Stobart contracts, doing away with the pesky scheduling agreement.

I know, I know, I'll get my tinfoil hat.
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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 17:30
  #3127 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hemel Hempstead
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Is a pre-pack a viable option?
toledoashley is offline  
Old 3rd Feb 2020, 17:31
  #3128 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
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Originally Posted by Sharklet_321 View Post
Do not launch luxembourg from lcy and dusseldorf from lhr with my money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In point of fact, Flybe are asking for a "commercial loan" so far from using "your money" what they would actually be doing is borrowing and paying "you" back with interest at a commercial rate which will be far superior to any rate that HMG could earn on "your money" were it to put it on deposit anywhere else.

This of course assumes that HMG do due diligence and only lend Flybe money which they expect to get back in good time, with interest.
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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 17:35
  #3129 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Originally Posted by toledoashley View Post
Is a pre-pack a viable option?
A pre-pack is a very unappetising prospect for for any of the creditors that would be left high and dry. In a previous life the company I worked for suffered at the hands of far too many "pre-pack" administrations; to the extent that company policy very quickly became that we would only offer credit to the "new business" provided that all outstanding debt was paid from the old business, otherwise it was strictly cash up front.

I would strongly recommend that any business, be they airlines, lessors or handling agents put in place a similar policy.
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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 17:36
  #3130 (permalink)  
MDS
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Spain
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
In point of fact, Flybe are asking for a "commercial loan" so far from using "your money" what they would actually be doing is borrowing and paying "you" back with interest at a commercial rate which will be far superior to any rate that HMG could earn on "your money" were it to put it on deposit anywhere else.

This of course assumes that HMG do due diligence and only lend Flybe money which they expect to get back in good time, with interest.
With all due respect, why don't the owners fund this themselves and/or why do commercial banks not fund this loan?

If you need a loan you go to a bank - you don't ask HMG.

If the airline goes bust after taking this "loan" then it becomes a "write-off".



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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 17:47
  #3131 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Milton Keynes
Posts: 951
This is a mess. I wonder if someone is working in a back room to work out which routes deserve a PSO and which can be considered vital to the economy. These can then be saved by a pre pack and the rest allowed to go. No doubt the consortium would also like to get their hands some LHR slots and will ask to hang on for that.

It isn't all Flybe's fault. Many regional routes from Birmingham for example have been tied by a succession of airlines and none have really been able to make them work - British Midland, BA, Brymon, Maersk spring to mind. The market is not large enough for a loco flying 737s/airbuses, and it is difficult to sustain a premium business service
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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 17:56
  #3132 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
So if Flybe gets some sort of subsidy to operate all these essential routes. Flybe operates Bhd - Gla, Edi, Man to state a few. So does Ezy from Bfs. Why would the Bhd routes deserve a subsidy?
Completely agreed.
This while debacle is bordering in the ridiculous.
The government surely have the commercial where with all to realise how unviable this business is and the fact that the 'investors' are not willing to invest speaks volumes. At least you'd like to think so.

This will all end in tears and the government are just prolonging the inevitable...
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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 18:11
  #3133 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Belfast
Posts: 388
Just kicking the can down the street really at this stage. Surely it must be impacting on forward bookings
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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 18:26
  #3134 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: west of the tamar
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Not scientific but randomly picking a date in April the cheapest NQY/LGW flight is a couple of pounds cheaper than the cheapest standard rail fare. Using the traditional ( for those with long enough memories) comparison to the First Class fare it is about half the price.
From an airline economic point of view I have long laboured you don't have to compete with the locos if you are the ONLY person offering the ability to fly to a destination with no competition.
I would rather have to provide for 10 passengers at 200 than 60 at 25!
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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 18:28
  #3135 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Channel Islands
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Originally Posted by Alteagod View Post
Just kicking the can down the street really at this stage. Surely it must be impacting on forward bookings

I for one have been put off booking with them for the time being. I always book through Flybe to go from GCI-SOU about once every 6 weeks or so, I have just reluctantly booked my first SOU flight with Aurigny because I didn't want to book through Flybe, they then go bust, which in turn would lead to Aurigny grinning like Cheshire cats, rubbing their hands together and putting their prices through the roof. They are always more expensive than Flybe but I couldn't take the risk of further expense.
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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 18:30
  #3136 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Northumberland
Posts: 5,035
Just a reminder that we are still playing to EU rules with regard to PSO's - the defition is below. How many BE routes would fit?

between an airport in the Community and an airport serving a peripheral or development region in its territory or on a thin route to any airport on its territory any such route being considered vital for the economic and social development of the region which the airport serves. That obligation shall be imposed only to the extent necessary to ensure on that route the minimum provision of scheduled air services satisfying fixed standards of continuity, regularity, pricing or minimum capacity, which air carriers would not assume if they were solely considering their commercial interest.
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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 18:33
  #3137 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: BHX
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Originally Posted by GCILover View Post
I for one have been put off booking with them for the time being. I always book through Flybe to go from GCI-SOU about once every 6 weeks or so, I have just reluctantly booked my first SOU flight with Aurigny because I didn't want to book through Flybe, they then go bust, which in turn would lead to Aurigny grinning like Cheshire cats, rubbing their hands together and putting their prices through the roof. They are always more expensive than Flybe but I couldn't take the risk of further expense.

You and many others, bookings are in free fall which is why some stability is needed ASAP, the quicker boris stumps up the 500mil the better for all .

The owners are risk adverse at present so government action action needed now...
Brigantee is offline  
Old 3rd Feb 2020, 18:41
  #3138 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: U.K
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Originally Posted by Brigantee View Post
You and many others, bookings are in free fall which is why some stability is needed ASAP, the quicker boris stumps up the 500mil the better for all .

The owners are risk adverse at present so government action action needed now...
So no need for private industry to anylonger take any risk - just simply go to the Government for a bailout (Yes, it would be a bail out no matter how you frame it).

Remind me who won the election again ?? - Corbyn would be proud of such Socialist protection.
The96er is offline  
Old 3rd Feb 2020, 18:57
  #3139 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: BHX
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Originally Posted by The96er View Post
So no need for private industry to anylonger take any risk - just simply go to the Government for a bailout (Yes, it would be a bail out no matter how you frame it).

Remind me who won the election again ?? - Corbyn would be proud of such Socialist protection.
Flybe is vital to this countries wealth which is why the tories are prepared to in effect take it into state ownership

It makes sense from all angles .
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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 19:10
  #3140 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 35
Let’s face it, BE are skint and their owners not willing to plough in more money. The government don’t stand a cat in hells chance of recovering the alleged 500m that has been suggested and instead all this will do is kick the can down the road for this winter season. Unfortunately the BE business model is forever floored and for all the talk of a Virgin rebrand and product resuscitation, this looks unlikely to ever happen. I do however feel slightly sorry for BE as Connect with all their promises and supposed due diligence, clearly never had the financial backing or will power to make the takeover a success. In conclusion, a total mess!
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