SOUTHEND 5
The report citing SEN as London 's second most expensive airport was I believe produced by CAPA. I believe I may have only seen abbreviated version but the conclusion as I recall was based on an overall cost per passenger basis, in which case it is possible the methodology would have skewed the results in favour of those airports able to handle larger capacity aircraft.
If anyone has access to the original report it would be useful if they could examine the original and post their assessment here so that we are not relying on unsubstantiated heresay.
If anyone has access to the original report it would be useful if they could examine the original and post their assessment here so that we are not relying on unsubstantiated heresay.
I agree with Tagron that it would be useful to see the source of the figures that asdf1234 quotes. It's all a bit too like hearsay as it stands, although I'm not disputing that it may be so as I'm not in a position to do so.
As far as Stobart applying for the potential subsidy on offer for CAX-SEN is concerned I would suggest that, if they think the route may qualify, it's simple business sense to make an application. I don't think that doing so reflects badly on them or their airports in any way.
As far as Stobart applying for the potential subsidy on offer for CAX-SEN is concerned I would suggest that, if they think the route may qualify, it's simple business sense to make an application. I don't think that doing so reflects badly on them or their airports in any way.
Over the past five or six years the projected CAX-SEN route must have attracted more repetitive comments than other topic in this section, and all for a route that is still a year away from operation. Yet all the recent posts and for that matter most of the huge volume over past years fail to take account of the core issue.
That core issue is not about SEN, because the CAX route will have only a minimal effect on SEN's fortunes, but about Stobart's distribution centre at CAX. An essential part of the planning application was that Stobart would redevelop the airport, maintain it as an operating airport and bring in scheduled services. The SEN route was always central to Stobart's case, though later joined by DUB and now BHD. Clearly no other airline would be interested in a CAX operation, so Stobart could provide the credibility to the planning authority by operating themselves. By using SEN they could ensure more of the operating costs were kept in house and there might be some marginal benefits for SEN.
Now they finally have their planning consent for their distribution centre they will have to deliver on their commitment. I don't doubt that Stobart are fully aware they will in effect be subsidising the routes themselves for a long time, and they will have to view this as all part of the bigger plan. But to consider CAX-SEN as just another arbitrary aspirational route is missing the point
That core issue is not about SEN, because the CAX route will have only a minimal effect on SEN's fortunes, but about Stobart's distribution centre at CAX. An essential part of the planning application was that Stobart would redevelop the airport, maintain it as an operating airport and bring in scheduled services. The SEN route was always central to Stobart's case, though later joined by DUB and now BHD. Clearly no other airline would be interested in a CAX operation, so Stobart could provide the credibility to the planning authority by operating themselves. By using SEN they could ensure more of the operating costs were kept in house and there might be some marginal benefits for SEN.
Now they finally have their planning consent for their distribution centre they will have to deliver on their commitment. I don't doubt that Stobart are fully aware they will in effect be subsidising the routes themselves for a long time, and they will have to view this as all part of the bigger plan. But to consider CAX-SEN as just another arbitrary aspirational route is missing the point
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New rules...
I agree with Tagron that it would be useful to see the source of the figures that asdf1234 quotes. It's all a bit too like hearsay as it stands, although I'm not disputing that it may be so as I'm not in a position to do so.
As far as Stobart applying for the potential subsidy on offer for CAX-SEN is concerned I would suggest that, if they think the route may qualify, it's simple business sense to make an application. I don't think that doing so reflects badly on them or their airports in any way.
As far as Stobart applying for the potential subsidy on offer for CAX-SEN is concerned I would suggest that, if they think the route may qualify, it's simple business sense to make an application. I don't think that doing so reflects badly on them or their airports in any way.
Ask FlyBe why their new continual route analysis made them drop what the spotters considered to be a profitable route out of SEN.
The trouble with too many posters here is that they aren't professionals inside the industry but mere spectators and spotters with a soft spot for a particular airport.
I don't report hearsay. If you want to review my past posts on the SEN thread you will see that I pointed out years ago that giving EasyJet a freebie at SEN would mean that the airport could not and would not attract fee paying airlines in any numbers. Apart from EasyJet how is the airport performing?
Results out in a couple of weeks time and I predict zero profits - again. If you don't think that's down to a lack of new routes due to higher than normal costs for a London airport you can of course tell us all why - just don't forget to quote your source otherwise it will be just hearsay.
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Some of us are professionals in the industry, but we just read the comments, from experience if we say something it is taken quite negatively. So we don't bother any more.
I can think of several possible reasons why SEN is not faring well in attracting new airlines and routes. The SEN price structure may - or may not be - one of the issues. That is why I am interested to hear further details of the CAPA report in particular how they reached their conclusions so we can assess their relevance to individual airline situations.
The CAPA report surely can only rely on the published brochure figures and cannot have access to confidential commercial information that reflects the deals actually struck. Skywork and Adria are two airlines that presumably would not agree with the CAPA contention that SEN is the second most expensive London airport.
For sure there is a sizeable contingent of spotters and enthusiasts who contribute to this thread, and their enthusiasm may often be unrealistic. But that is harmless. There are also those who seem to only come to this forum when they want to post negativity. If that negativity is not based on sound evidence then it may become destructive. Then one starts to question motives.
The CAPA report surely can only rely on the published brochure figures and cannot have access to confidential commercial information that reflects the deals actually struck. Skywork and Adria are two airlines that presumably would not agree with the CAPA contention that SEN is the second most expensive London airport.
For sure there is a sizeable contingent of spotters and enthusiasts who contribute to this thread, and their enthusiasm may often be unrealistic. But that is harmless. There are also those who seem to only come to this forum when they want to post negativity. If that negativity is not based on sound evidence then it may become destructive. Then one starts to question motives.
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I can think of several possible reasons why SEN is not faring well in attracting new airlines and routes. The SEN price structure may - or may not be - one of the issues. That is why I am interested to hear further details of the CAPA report in particular how they reached their conclusions so we can assess their relevance to individual airline situations.
The CAPA report surely can only rely on the published brochure figures and cannot have access to confidential commercial information that reflects the deals actually struck. Skywork and Adria are two airlines that presumably would not agree with the CAPA contention that SEN is the second most expensive London airport.
For sure there is a sizeable contingent of spotters and enthusiasts who contribute to this thread, and their enthusiasm may often be unrealistic. But that is harmless. There are also those who seem to only come to this forum when they want to post negativity. If that negativity is not based on sound evidence then it may become destructive. Then one starts to question motives.
The CAPA report surely can only rely on the published brochure figures and cannot have access to confidential commercial information that reflects the deals actually struck. Skywork and Adria are two airlines that presumably would not agree with the CAPA contention that SEN is the second most expensive London airport.
For sure there is a sizeable contingent of spotters and enthusiasts who contribute to this thread, and their enthusiasm may often be unrealistic. But that is harmless. There are also those who seem to only come to this forum when they want to post negativity. If that negativity is not based on sound evidence then it may become destructive. Then one starts to question motives.
So the information is in the public domain when working out who charges what. Is that hearsay? Don't think so...
asdf1234
You seem to have taken my last post to be a criticism of you which it certainly was not. All I was asking was that, as it was you who stated that "SEN and LCY are the most expensive airports in London", it would be "useful to see the source of the figures". Surely not an unreasonable request?
By association you seem to brand me as one of the "mere spectators and spotters" on PPRuNe but if so you are well wide of the mark as I have been professionally involved in many aspects of SEN's regeneration over the past six years. Confidentiality considerations greatly restrict what I am able to post but I hope that some of my input may be considered useful.
Neile1
I don't blame you for keeping quiet and I sometimes wish I had your powers of self restraint.
LTNman
It is rather odd that SEN finds it difficult to grow its biz jet traffic but I know that they are very aware that being competitively priced is important, even in that market.
You seem to have taken my last post to be a criticism of you which it certainly was not. All I was asking was that, as it was you who stated that "SEN and LCY are the most expensive airports in London", it would be "useful to see the source of the figures". Surely not an unreasonable request?
By association you seem to brand me as one of the "mere spectators and spotters" on PPRuNe but if so you are well wide of the mark as I have been professionally involved in many aspects of SEN's regeneration over the past six years. Confidentiality considerations greatly restrict what I am able to post but I hope that some of my input may be considered useful.
Neile1
I don't blame you for keeping quiet and I sometimes wish I had your powers of self restraint.
LTNman
It is rather odd that SEN finds it difficult to grow its biz jet traffic but I know that they are very aware that being competitively priced is important, even in that market.
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I think you can be sure that Adria Airways would not be paying more to use Southend than say Luton or Stansted. In fact they are probably paying less. That might change after any discount period runs out or if they can get a slot at Gatwick which is their preferred airport and where their other London flights operate to.
Sometimes events conspire to make life difficult for passengers.
Rail - Over the Easter Weekend (Friday 03/04 - Monday 06/04) there will be planned rail maintenance work on the Abellio Greater Anglia Line which will affect the rail line between the Airport and Central London. There will be buses in for trains and a revised service running.
Road - On Monday 06/04 there will be a charity motorbike ride which will be using the A127 to go from London to Southend.
We would advise all passengers to allow extra travel time.
Road - On Monday 06/04 there will be a charity motorbike ride which will be using the A127 to go from London to Southend.
We would advise all passengers to allow extra travel time.
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Airport fees
http://www.southendairport.com/airpo...itions-of-use/
Passenger Aircraft Handling
(per movement)
Up to 19 tonnes £200.00
20 to 29 tonnes £250.00
30 to 49 tonnes £300.00
50+ tonnes £350.00
Equipment Charges
Air start £250.00 per start
Conveyor £70.00 per hour or part thereof
Dollie £5.00 per unit per 30 min. or part thereof
Fork lift £75.00 per hour or part thereof
GPU £70.00 per 30 min. or part thereof
Steps £60.00 per hour or part thereof
Toilet service £75.00 per service
De-icing £3.00 per litre + £175.00 labour
(Min. charge £350.00)
General labour £52.50 per man hour or part thereof
Ballast £25.00 per 100kg or part thereof
Interior Aircraft Cleaning
Capacity Cabin tidy Full service
Up to 100 passengers £125.00 £375.00
101 to 125 passengers £150.00 £450.00
126 to 150 passengers £200.00 £600.00
151 to 200 passengers £250.00 £750.00
Security
Domestic £10.00 per departing passenger
International £10.00 per departing passenger
A 100% premium will apply to flights on bank holidays.
Passenger Load Supplement
Domestic £10.00 per departing passenger
International £10.00 per departing passenger
For diversions, passengers will be charged based on the greater of arriving or departing numbers.
A 100% premium will apply to flights on bank holidays.
I see prices double for bank holidays. Are all the staff on double time then?
http://www.southendairport.com/airpo...itions-of-use/
Passenger Aircraft Handling
(per movement)
Up to 19 tonnes £200.00
20 to 29 tonnes £250.00
30 to 49 tonnes £300.00
50+ tonnes £350.00
Equipment Charges
Air start £250.00 per start
Conveyor £70.00 per hour or part thereof
Dollie £5.00 per unit per 30 min. or part thereof
Fork lift £75.00 per hour or part thereof
GPU £70.00 per 30 min. or part thereof
Steps £60.00 per hour or part thereof
Toilet service £75.00 per service
De-icing £3.00 per litre + £175.00 labour
(Min. charge £350.00)
General labour £52.50 per man hour or part thereof
Ballast £25.00 per 100kg or part thereof
Interior Aircraft Cleaning
Capacity Cabin tidy Full service
Up to 100 passengers £125.00 £375.00
101 to 125 passengers £150.00 £450.00
126 to 150 passengers £200.00 £600.00
151 to 200 passengers £250.00 £750.00
Security
Domestic £10.00 per departing passenger
International £10.00 per departing passenger
A 100% premium will apply to flights on bank holidays.
Passenger Load Supplement
Domestic £10.00 per departing passenger
International £10.00 per departing passenger
For diversions, passengers will be charged based on the greater of arriving or departing numbers.
A 100% premium will apply to flights on bank holidays.
I see prices double for bank holidays. Are all the staff on double time then?
Last edited by LTNman; 5th Apr 2015 at 09:24.
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I would be interested to see comparable fees with Stansted and Luton.
Do aircraft pay landing fees anymore? I can't see them listed.
Are Adria Airways advertising big-time locally for their new service? They must do that to get good loads.
Do aircraft pay landing fees anymore? I can't see them listed.
Are Adria Airways advertising big-time locally for their new service? They must do that to get good loads.
Last edited by tophat27dt; 5th Apr 2015 at 10:20. Reason: added subject
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SEN probably do make more money per passenger on paper, the point you've all missed is sen are the airport, handler, caterer, retailer, fueller, exec lounge operator, car park operator etc. it's 100% in house. So it will APPEAR that they charge more per passenger but in reality they don't. In reality the other airports only charge for a part of these services and the rest of the revenue goes to third parties which will not reflect in the apparent revenues of the airport but are still charges borne by the airline at every Airport.
Heathrow charge a minimum of £1,500 for an a319 to depart. That's a minimum and only the runway charge ... Do Sen charge more? Not a chance.
The fact that Sen is not attracting airlines is because it's a viscous and competitive market place ...
These reports are useless and don't mean anything, as has been said what is agreed is commercially sensitive and only the parties involved actually know.
Heathrow charge a minimum of £1,500 for an a319 to depart. That's a minimum and only the runway charge ... Do Sen charge more? Not a chance.
The fact that Sen is not attracting airlines is because it's a viscous and competitive market place ...
These reports are useless and don't mean anything, as has been said what is agreed is commercially sensitive and only the parties involved actually know.
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SEN probably do make more money per passenger on paper, the point you've all missed is sen are the airport, handler, caterer, retailer, fueller, exec lounge operator, car park operator etc. it's 100% in house.
The fact that Sen is not attracting airlines is because it's a viscous and competitive market place ...
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Diversions
An interesting article on the number of diversions from London airports
London City Airport sees most planes diverted elsewhere in 2014 - The Wharf
London City Airport sees most planes diverted elsewhere in 2014 - The Wharf