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Quote: “More speculation on UK- India flights with Air India see the link below”
Never going to happen, AI is a shadow of its former self. Back in the day the AI route map included AMS, BRU, ORY later CDG, FCO, FRA, GVA, LHR and PRG in Europe, now it’s just CDG, FRA and LHR with reduced flights. Indeed, many of AI‘s routes these days are code-shares.
Whatever happened to this once great carrier!?
If there is a lot traffic between BHX and ATQ, it is well catered for by indirect flights, AI would need to offer direct BHX-ATQ. If one has to change at DEL why not at DXB (and/or the cheaper options)?
Quote: “Also remember that Birmingham and the West Midlands also have strong industrial links to India such as TATA who own Jaguar (based in Mumbai) its not just friends and family that would use the service.”
But they’re not speculating on BHX-BOM flights. As Bombay is the country’s largest city and its financial, commercial and business centre, one might expect more premium business on such a route, as opposed to VFR traffic on a cheapest fares between BHX and DEL or BHX and DEL/ATQ.
Quote: “True BHX has the weight of manufacturing behind it, so it seems both destinations have good reasons to get a route. I was hoping AI would go to B'ham and Jet come to MAN for an even spread, but, given the tie in with Etihad, I would put good bets on Jet not serving any extra UK points so it seems only AI is the option for regional flights to India.”
9W is unlikely to have a second UK destination, there's no need. Pax headed for regional destinations in India can be channelled through its huge domestic network via their hub at BOM (or through DEL for north India, such as ATQ). The same would have been the case for IT had it not gone “belly-up”. To do otherwise means going up against the well-established EK network with multiple destinations in both the UK and India.
Quote: “I know who were headed to India flew LH or EK due to the better flight times, reputation, price and service.”
Yes, service and reputation is important, and regrettably, AI threw this away at the end of the 1970s.
To summarise, despite the hype and the speculation, there will be no Indian carrier at BHX or MAN in the foreseeable.
Never going to happen, AI is a shadow of its former self. Back in the day the AI route map included AMS, BRU, ORY later CDG, FCO, FRA, GVA, LHR and PRG in Europe, now it’s just CDG, FRA and LHR with reduced flights. Indeed, many of AI‘s routes these days are code-shares.
Whatever happened to this once great carrier!?
If there is a lot traffic between BHX and ATQ, it is well catered for by indirect flights, AI would need to offer direct BHX-ATQ. If one has to change at DEL why not at DXB (and/or the cheaper options)?
Quote: “Also remember that Birmingham and the West Midlands also have strong industrial links to India such as TATA who own Jaguar (based in Mumbai) its not just friends and family that would use the service.”
But they’re not speculating on BHX-BOM flights. As Bombay is the country’s largest city and its financial, commercial and business centre, one might expect more premium business on such a route, as opposed to VFR traffic on a cheapest fares between BHX and DEL or BHX and DEL/ATQ.
Quote: “True BHX has the weight of manufacturing behind it, so it seems both destinations have good reasons to get a route. I was hoping AI would go to B'ham and Jet come to MAN for an even spread, but, given the tie in with Etihad, I would put good bets on Jet not serving any extra UK points so it seems only AI is the option for regional flights to India.”
9W is unlikely to have a second UK destination, there's no need. Pax headed for regional destinations in India can be channelled through its huge domestic network via their hub at BOM (or through DEL for north India, such as ATQ). The same would have been the case for IT had it not gone “belly-up”. To do otherwise means going up against the well-established EK network with multiple destinations in both the UK and India.
Quote: “I know who were headed to India flew LH or EK due to the better flight times, reputation, price and service.”
Yes, service and reputation is important, and regrettably, AI threw this away at the end of the 1970s.
To summarise, despite the hype and the speculation, there will be no Indian carrier at BHX or MAN in the foreseeable.
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 28th Mar 2013 at 11:33.
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Whatever happened to this once great carrier!?
Air India have some very expensive B777-200LRs that they never needed and were instructed to buy (see corruption and incompetence above, also ongoing governmental interference). When they finally managed to make a case to get rid of them, no one would take them as they're in a very poor state for a state of the art aircraft. Air Canada had a look and said "Gee whiz no thanks and cheerio."
Emirates are a much better bet as they tend to at least operate on the same day they are scheduled to.....
Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 28th Mar 2013 at 14:12.
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Quote: "Well their management has always been poor, venal, inefficient and not terribly good, see also PIA. Along came a better product at a better price from Sandpit Productions and Game Over.
Air India have some very expensive B777-200LRs that they never needed and were instructed to buy (see corruption and incompetence above, also ongoing governmental interference). When they finally managed to make a case to get rid of them, no one would take them as they're in a very poor state for a state of the art aircraft. Air Canada had a look and said "Gee whiz no thanks and cheerio."
Emirates are a much better bet as they tend to at least operate on the same day they are scheduled to....."
No, before all that, in the 1950s/1960s/early 1970s when AI was the carrier of choice, the skytrax 5-star equivelant of that time. Hard to believe, but it really was the case! Surprisingly, PK was also a reputable carrier in those days.
Air India have some very expensive B777-200LRs that they never needed and were instructed to buy (see corruption and incompetence above, also ongoing governmental interference). When they finally managed to make a case to get rid of them, no one would take them as they're in a very poor state for a state of the art aircraft. Air Canada had a look and said "Gee whiz no thanks and cheerio."
Emirates are a much better bet as they tend to at least operate on the same day they are scheduled to....."
No, before all that, in the 1950s/1960s/early 1970s when AI was the carrier of choice, the skytrax 5-star equivelant of that time. Hard to believe, but it really was the case! Surprisingly, PK was also a reputable carrier in those days.
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AI
Without wishing to flog this subject to death it is also worth remembering that AI operated through BHX and not actually to/from BHX alone. Yes, flights were always pretty full but that was because they were loaded with Indian originating pax going to/from YYZ. The actual pax numbers starting/finishing their journeys at BHX were relatively low. With all due respect the BHX stop was more like a glorified 'splash and dash' from DEL/ATQ en route to/from YYZ that just happened to pick up/drop off some pax in BHX.
So if AI were to start at BHX and be competitive they would need to operate non stop to ATQ and be able to fill a 777 from BHX alone with that all important high yielding pax. Hmm?
If this did ever happen, I think AI could spell the end of T5 at BHX, they co-existed before as AI could only offer limited numbers of seats on BHX-ATQ, and possibly only at prices that did not appeal compared to T5.
So if AI were to start at BHX and be competitive they would need to operate non stop to ATQ and be able to fill a 777 from BHX alone with that all important high yielding pax. Hmm?
If this did ever happen, I think AI could spell the end of T5 at BHX, they co-existed before as AI could only offer limited numbers of seats on BHX-ATQ, and possibly only at prices that did not appeal compared to T5.
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Do AI even operate 772's anymore? Would a 773 manage it if they went for that?
On the other hand, it seems that the A45 diversion is taking shape.
On the other hand, it seems that the A45 diversion is taking shape.
Last edited by Planeaddict; 29th Mar 2013 at 10:25.
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Air India Boeing 777 -222/222ER disposals:-
One is on racks and various skips in Southern France. Two have migrated to Omni Air operating US Military Charters and the remaining frame is in Russia.
The fate of the B77L ULH frames is also in the balance - 5 are due to leave for lease to Ukraine.
That leaves them with just three for the non stop India- USA flights !
At some indefinite future date a return to UK regional services will be with the B788.
One is on racks and various skips in Southern France. Two have migrated to Omni Air operating US Military Charters and the remaining frame is in Russia.
The fate of the B77L ULH frames is also in the balance - 5 are due to leave for lease to Ukraine.
That leaves them with just three for the non stop India- USA flights !
At some indefinite future date a return to UK regional services will be with the B788.
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Having crossed swords with LAX on other forums trust me his information is ALWAYS 100 % correct, that is not patronising he is always usually on the money !
I also agree with him......on another point !
Good debate and banter is everything but it's a bit rich suggesting there s/b no mention of Manchester when to be honest practically EVERY BHX poster quotes what may or may not be happening at Manchester specifically in relation to BHXs own services !
It is continually used as barometer of whether a service should or should not start at BHX despite both markets being totally different !
If what you say is correct DAZA 50% of the postings on here s/b deleted
trouble is they originate from passionate supporters of BHX !
One other point the 1st go by Air India did terminate at BHX, the thru service was second attempt.
I also agree with him......on another point !
Good debate and banter is everything but it's a bit rich suggesting there s/b no mention of Manchester when to be honest practically EVERY BHX poster quotes what may or may not be happening at Manchester specifically in relation to BHXs own services !
It is continually used as barometer of whether a service should or should not start at BHX despite both markets being totally different !
If what you say is correct DAZA 50% of the postings on here s/b deleted
trouble is they originate from passionate supporters of BHX !
One other point the 1st go by Air India did terminate at BHX, the thru service was second attempt.
Last edited by Navpi; 29th Mar 2013 at 17:57.
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Hi Navpi
Thank you for your kind words, but, Ill be the first to admit Im not always right.
When it comes to news and some discussion, a lot of information comes from other sources so I either have to trust what they say or pass it off as boloney.
Some times my sources are honest in what they are saying, however plans change, such as Emirates using MAN for JFK transits. They looked very deeply into the flights, and decided not to proceed. And because Milan has been chosen, a poster on another forum has decided to basically call me a liar
. The latest case of this was Cathay pacific using the B747-800 up the road. Cathay had every intention of using the aircraft, however, the plan has since changed again, so technically, my reporting is now 'wrong'. But anyway, I digress.
In the cases of some discussion, most of it is my own opinion, mixed in with facts, so, people cannot take it as gospel. The discussion regarding air India is mainly my opinion. Both airports do have valid reasons to attract the service, and my argument about bringing MAN into the argument was based on the article link posted, it made it very clear that it was a MAN vs BHX scenario (although the author may read this forum, as since the debate ensued, the title of said article has changed!)
I think at the end of the day, people have to accept that comparisons between MAN and BHX will always be a feature on here.
Yes, some people do take it too far, but both airports have a similar demographic, both have similar airlines, and sometimes, if a service proves well at one, it is introduced at the other.
Thank you for your kind words, but, Ill be the first to admit Im not always right.
When it comes to news and some discussion, a lot of information comes from other sources so I either have to trust what they say or pass it off as boloney.
Some times my sources are honest in what they are saying, however plans change, such as Emirates using MAN for JFK transits. They looked very deeply into the flights, and decided not to proceed. And because Milan has been chosen, a poster on another forum has decided to basically call me a liar
. The latest case of this was Cathay pacific using the B747-800 up the road. Cathay had every intention of using the aircraft, however, the plan has since changed again, so technically, my reporting is now 'wrong'. But anyway, I digress.In the cases of some discussion, most of it is my own opinion, mixed in with facts, so, people cannot take it as gospel. The discussion regarding air India is mainly my opinion. Both airports do have valid reasons to attract the service, and my argument about bringing MAN into the argument was based on the article link posted, it made it very clear that it was a MAN vs BHX scenario (although the author may read this forum, as since the debate ensued, the title of said article has changed!)
I think at the end of the day, people have to accept that comparisons between MAN and BHX will always be a feature on here.
Yes, some people do take it too far, but both airports have a similar demographic, both have similar airlines, and sometimes, if a service proves well at one, it is introduced at the other.
Nice post LAX_LHR. But this forum is largely based on rumours and quotes from other sorces in the press. It's sad that some have to hide behind their screens and abuse others. Questions people pose are usually answered by opinions which can be based on wild speculation and hopes from the spotters side. We've seen plenty of comments about QR now it's AI. The only reliable operation they did was back in the 80's when they operated a 707 via Moscow. Look what happened to Armenia. The world and his dog were going to use it. Now nothing.
My answer is simple, believe it when it happens. When the FO's are kicking the tyres then it's for real.
My answer is simple, believe it when it happens. When the FO's are kicking the tyres then it's for real.
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Runway extension
Change of subject: Having arrived and, a few days later, departed over the 33 end, I must say I'm rather surprised that for all the effort that's going into this extension they didn't add a further 1000-1500 feet.
Last edited by Hotel Tango; 30th Mar 2013 at 12:24.
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Why that Would be a waste of concrete and ongoing power consumption for the extra lamps.
BHX elevation is a high head dizzying 100m !
Average temperatures 14° C
Average Humidity 82%
Not exactly Jo'burg or Mexico City is it ?
3000m declared length (plus 150 of starter strip) will be more than adequate for the range of services aircraft types and load factors in such a temperate environment at Birmingham now and for the next thirty + years !
BHX elevation is a high head dizzying 100m !
Average temperatures 14° C
Average Humidity 82%
Not exactly Jo'burg or Mexico City is it ?
3000m declared length (plus 150 of starter strip) will be more than adequate for the range of services aircraft types and load factors in such a temperate environment at Birmingham now and for the next thirty + years !
Last edited by rutankrd; 30th Mar 2013 at 13:00.
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LAX-LHR,
I think you provided a very good insight into Air India BHX and MAN and you are right their are more Bengalis in the West Midlands but as you say Bangladesh decided to operate from Manchester.
There are 2 schools of thought though..firstly airlines such as Bangladesh, Air India may favour Manchester as its further away from London than BHX.
However you can also say that BHX may gain more interest in the future if airlines cannot get more slots or capacity out of LHR.
BHX will be the next nearest main airport with a runway long enough in a conurbation with reasonably high population levels of people from the likes of India, China etc.
It all depends if there would be enough to merit trying flights from BHX. In there is in that case I can see BHX being more of an interest in some markets than Manchester.
Suppose time will tell.
Nigel
I think you provided a very good insight into Air India BHX and MAN and you are right their are more Bengalis in the West Midlands but as you say Bangladesh decided to operate from Manchester.
There are 2 schools of thought though..firstly airlines such as Bangladesh, Air India may favour Manchester as its further away from London than BHX.
However you can also say that BHX may gain more interest in the future if airlines cannot get more slots or capacity out of LHR.
BHX will be the next nearest main airport with a runway long enough in a conurbation with reasonably high population levels of people from the likes of India, China etc.
It all depends if there would be enough to merit trying flights from BHX. In there is in that case I can see BHX being more of an interest in some markets than Manchester.
Suppose time will tell.
Nigel
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Quote: “If this did ever happen, I think AI could spell the end of T5 at BHX, they co-existed before as AI could only offer limited numbers of seats on BHX-ATQ, and possibly only at prices that did not appeal compared to T5.”
Won’t happen, AI won't go up against EK at BHX, T5 is safe.
Quote: “One other point the 1st go by Air India did terminate at BHX, the thru service was second attempt.”
IIRC, the second attempt was BOM to DEL then non-stop to BHX then on to YYZ as previously mentioned. In some respects this was a tech stop first, refuel, crew change, etc., with dropping off/picking up pax as a bonus.
There is not enough premium pax for non-stop BHX-ATQ (low yield VFR is not sufficient for the route to pay), it's better for EK, T5 and others to funnel this traffic through their hubs.
The only way AI would return to BHX or start MAN is if it was able to return to it's former role of channelling traffic from North America, Europe and Africa to Asia and Australasia through BOM like it did in the 1950s/1960s/1970s.
It is not in a position to do this for three reasons:
(1) it's too late, others (EK, QR, TK, etc.) are ahead of the game;
(2) AI no longer has a unique selling point in a crowded market, plus there are all the negative perceptions;
(3) overflying the USSR/Russian Federation and China was not allowed in the 1950s/1960s/1970s, now it is, so there's no need to go the long way round.
Conclusion: no AI at BHX.
Won’t happen, AI won't go up against EK at BHX, T5 is safe.
Quote: “One other point the 1st go by Air India did terminate at BHX, the thru service was second attempt.”
IIRC, the second attempt was BOM to DEL then non-stop to BHX then on to YYZ as previously mentioned. In some respects this was a tech stop first, refuel, crew change, etc., with dropping off/picking up pax as a bonus.
There is not enough premium pax for non-stop BHX-ATQ (low yield VFR is not sufficient for the route to pay), it's better for EK, T5 and others to funnel this traffic through their hubs.
The only way AI would return to BHX or start MAN is if it was able to return to it's former role of channelling traffic from North America, Europe and Africa to Asia and Australasia through BOM like it did in the 1950s/1960s/1970s.
It is not in a position to do this for three reasons:
(1) it's too late, others (EK, QR, TK, etc.) are ahead of the game;
(2) AI no longer has a unique selling point in a crowded market, plus there are all the negative perceptions;
(3) overflying the USSR/Russian Federation and China was not allowed in the 1950s/1960s/1970s, now it is, so there's no need to go the long way round.
Conclusion: no AI at BHX.
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 30th Mar 2013 at 14:14.
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Speculation and there is stuff regarding BHX which has probably already been discussed here but makes for interesting reading.
Air India to start Melbourne, Washington Milan and Birmingham (as second point in UK) | anna.aero
Air India to start Melbourne, Washington Milan and Birmingham (as second point in UK) | anna.aero
I think the article contradicts itself in that the title states "Air India to start......", then goes on to say "We are looking to add new flights to a number of new markets"
In my view looking at and starting are two different meanings. Anyway believe it when it happens.
In my view looking at and starting are two different meanings. Anyway believe it when it happens.
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Summer 13
Back to what is happening now with a very low key start to the summer schedules mainly due to the early Easter and many new services starting in May or June.
Tomorrow sees Ryanair revert to four based and four destinations restarted and five away based aircraft giving 15 flights in total.
Monarch add nothing compared to last Sunday although GIB, MUC, GNB, SSH and FNC did not operate in April 2012, However this is over-shadowed by Munich ending on 22/4, Alicante reduced from daily to 5 weekly, Malaga from daily to 4 weekly, Larnaca from 5 weekly to 2 weekly, LPA 2 to 1, FUE 2 to 1, TFS 8 to 6, ACE 3 to 2, Palma 4 to nil, DLM 2 to nil, LEI 2 to nil, MAH 2 to nil and Faro from daily to 3/4 weekly.
Added to that BMI Baby operated 6 AGP's, 5 ALC's, 3/4 NCE, 2 MJV, 3 FAO, 3 BCN and 2 PMI in April 2012.
Turkish move to ten a week from Monday and SAS Stockholm goes back to 6 a week from mid month.
flybe swap a 175 and 195 with EDI which means a loss of seats for BHX but the base expands with ABZ reverting to BHX based. AMS goes three daily every weekday and Lyon starts May.
Swiss change to the RJ100 on the evening flight and Brussels Airlines remains at 5 daily in the week from mid month but 4 x Q400 (2 flybe and 2 Tyrolean). Air France settle to A318's with the A319/320 making the odd appearence.
Luthansa shuffle the pack with Berlin moving to morning and CR9's at the weekend. Hamburg remains 6 a week compered to 11 when it started and also moving to mid-morning from afternoon.
easyjet increase the Belfast on a Sunday with two flights and Geneva is daily until it ends on 14/4.
Pete
Tomorrow sees Ryanair revert to four based and four destinations restarted and five away based aircraft giving 15 flights in total.
Monarch add nothing compared to last Sunday although GIB, MUC, GNB, SSH and FNC did not operate in April 2012, However this is over-shadowed by Munich ending on 22/4, Alicante reduced from daily to 5 weekly, Malaga from daily to 4 weekly, Larnaca from 5 weekly to 2 weekly, LPA 2 to 1, FUE 2 to 1, TFS 8 to 6, ACE 3 to 2, Palma 4 to nil, DLM 2 to nil, LEI 2 to nil, MAH 2 to nil and Faro from daily to 3/4 weekly.
Added to that BMI Baby operated 6 AGP's, 5 ALC's, 3/4 NCE, 2 MJV, 3 FAO, 3 BCN and 2 PMI in April 2012.
Turkish move to ten a week from Monday and SAS Stockholm goes back to 6 a week from mid month.
flybe swap a 175 and 195 with EDI which means a loss of seats for BHX but the base expands with ABZ reverting to BHX based. AMS goes three daily every weekday and Lyon starts May.
Swiss change to the RJ100 on the evening flight and Brussels Airlines remains at 5 daily in the week from mid month but 4 x Q400 (2 flybe and 2 Tyrolean). Air France settle to A318's with the A319/320 making the odd appearence.
Luthansa shuffle the pack with Berlin moving to morning and CR9's at the weekend. Hamburg remains 6 a week compered to 11 when it started and also moving to mid-morning from afternoon.
easyjet increase the Belfast on a Sunday with two flights and Geneva is daily until it ends on 14/4.
Pete
Last edited by OltonPete; 31st Mar 2013 at 00:53. Reason: wrong info