DURHAM TEES VALLEY AIRPORT - 5
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Hartlepool
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Business rates
Skyman1771, Thanks you for your interesting input.
Regarding business rates, the local councils do not collect any of that money, as all business rates goes straight to HM government without passing GO.
Housing on the other hand allows councils to generate and collect council tax, so they prefer the houses as opposed to units.
Land such as DTV is prime building land in the right hands with a view of the hills, but I dont think KLM will be interested in buying it.
If DTV had not pushed so many GA pilots out they might still have the international status. Its either Bagby or Fishburn for most GA pilots.
Thank you for the input about who will receive the compensation millions. Will Peel change the airport name back to Teesside with it all? as I believe it was BMI who insisted on the DTV name
Its a shame the military can't be persuaded to move some operations to Teesside as it has a long runway, even if it is sinking a bit each year.
I was hoping once the Canadians became involved the field would pick up even if it was only cargo. The £6 tax was a shot in the foot for most travellers.
Regarding business rates, the local councils do not collect any of that money, as all business rates goes straight to HM government without passing GO.
Housing on the other hand allows councils to generate and collect council tax, so they prefer the houses as opposed to units.
Land such as DTV is prime building land in the right hands with a view of the hills, but I dont think KLM will be interested in buying it.
If DTV had not pushed so many GA pilots out they might still have the international status. Its either Bagby or Fishburn for most GA pilots.
Thank you for the input about who will receive the compensation millions. Will Peel change the airport name back to Teesside with it all? as I believe it was BMI who insisted on the DTV name
Its a shame the military can't be persuaded to move some operations to Teesside as it has a long runway, even if it is sinking a bit each year.
I was hoping once the Canadians became involved the field would pick up even if it was only cargo. The £6 tax was a shot in the foot for most travellers.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: NE ENGLAND
Posts: 957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its a shame the military can't be persuaded to move some operations to Teesside as it has a long runway........
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: up north
Posts: 310
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why would Peel holdings initiate the action ?
Surely the contract in question was between BMI and the airport operating company ? If so, even if Peel Holdings owned all of the op co at the time, that doesn't give the holding company any beneficial rights to the assets of the ops co. Therefore, the right to the money would stay with the ops co, unless there was a side deal as part of the partial acquisition by Vancouver airports.
More doom and gloom...
The best bit.
This is from a woman who has tried her best to wreck any development at the airport. Forgot "James Wharton" who's he!
Middleton St George Councillor Doris Jones, whose ward covers the airport, said: “James Wharton has campaigned for our airport for a long time and this worrying news brings home just how urgent it is that something is done to secure its long-term future.
“The last thing people in Middleton St George want is a new housing estate on the outskirts of our village. We must do all we can to secure Teesside airport’s future.”
“The last thing people in Middleton St George want is a new housing estate on the outskirts of our village. We must do all we can to secure Teesside airport’s future.”
This is from a woman who has tried her best to wreck any development at the airport. Forgot "James Wharton" who's he!
Have a look at the Woodford thread - apparently the same thing happened there with the NIMBY's suddenly becoming supporters of all things aeronautical. Surely nothing to do with the thought that any significant housing development has to have an element of low-cost or "social" housing?
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Hartlepool
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Public comments on the lates news
Similar news paper page but with all the public comments at the bottom of the article. Makes interesting reading on how the public see things.
Is this the final curtain call by Peel Plc to push the councils out of any descision making?
Fears for future of Durham Tees Valley Airport - Local News - News - Gazette Live
A sample of the public comments:
Wayne
Is this the final curtain call by Peel Plc to push the councils out of any descision making?
Fears for future of Durham Tees Valley Airport - Local News - News - Gazette Live
A sample of the public comments:
Wayne
1:40 PM on December 9, 2011
As an airport I have seen better in third world countries. The amenetys are horendous both in arrivals and departures. Now having to pay six pound for the pleasure as well? The security are the most ingnorant people I have ever met.
As has been pointed out if two planes arrive at the same time you que outside.
If it wasnt for work and the fact that it's only 10 minutes in a taxi for the red eye flight, I would never use it when you can travel a bit further and fly from Newcastle which is worlds apart from the sh1thole that is Teeside , sorry Durham tees valley airport.
Gasbag 12:41
As an airport I have seen better in third world countries. The amenetys are horendous both in arrivals and departures. Now having to pay six pound for the pleasure as well? The security are the most ingnorant people I have ever met.
As has been pointed out if two planes arrive at the same time you que outside.
If it wasnt for work and the fact that it's only 10 minutes in a taxi for the red eye flight, I would never use it when you can travel a bit further and fly from Newcastle which is worlds apart from the sh1thole that is Teeside , sorry Durham tees valley airport.
Gasbag 12:41
It is blatantly obvious to a blind man that Peel have a deliberate policy to run down our airport. Look at the number of flights we have lost since they have been involved.
Peel own both Liverpool & Doncaster, both of which are booming. Losses at Teesside are offset against their profits and the compensation from BMI Baby no doubt found its way into their coffers.
I don't know the legalities of the share dilution, but surely the councils cannot just accept this and hand over a prime site to this bunch of crooks. Lets hope if it does close, they never receive planning permission to redevelop the land.
Goodcopbadcop 2:02
Peel own both Liverpool & Doncaster, both of which are booming. Losses at Teesside are offset against their profits and the compensation from BMI Baby no doubt found its way into their coffers.
I don't know the legalities of the share dilution, but surely the councils cannot just accept this and hand over a prime site to this bunch of crooks. Lets hope if it does close, they never receive planning permission to redevelop the land.
Goodcopbadcop 2:02
Have I got this story right, the local authorites, our local authorities have invested money, our money, taxpayers money in the airport and now the airport are "demanding" more of our money, taxpayers money to retain their current stake, which by association is our stake. Given that the airport made over two million pound loss last year, I have to ask is this a good investment. Its time the local authorities told the taxpayers just where they invest our cash and what we get out of it. I can see another Icelandic Bank Scenario on the horizon. Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Near MME, England, UK
Age: 35
Posts: 866
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Peel can't close the airport for 6-7 years or they will have to stump up £35 million to rehouse Cobham. As far as passenger operations goes though, well, it's clearly not looking good.
But regardless of what I think I'll do my best to support the airport until the end, people on this thread should think twice before posting as they don't realise how potentially damaging some of their comments are.
But regardless of what I think I'll do my best to support the airport until the end, people on this thread should think twice before posting as they don't realise how potentially damaging some of their comments are.
DTV Future
Nice sentiments DTV.
Catch 22 however as you cant support what isnt there..i.e flights.
Where did you get those Cob figures from? are they in the public domain?
A little bird also tells me that the Fire school may be looking for other premises? Again possibly b.. house wall stuff but theres usually no smoke without fire(no pun intended)
It really rankles when you see on the Newcastle thread..even in times of depression ! and although only 30 miles up the road..they continue to introduce more flights.
Jet 2 Monarch etc. So what are they doing right that we are not?
As I have said before the basic infrastucture of the airport has gone now and I fear there is no way back(either will or money).
Catch 22 however as you cant support what isnt there..i.e flights.
Where did you get those Cob figures from? are they in the public domain?
A little bird also tells me that the Fire school may be looking for other premises? Again possibly b.. house wall stuff but theres usually no smoke without fire(no pun intended)
It really rankles when you see on the Newcastle thread..even in times of depression ! and although only 30 miles up the road..they continue to introduce more flights.
Jet 2 Monarch etc. So what are they doing right that we are not?
As I have said before the basic infrastucture of the airport has gone now and I fear there is no way back(either will or money).
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Hartlepool
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
post before its all too late
Hopefully by bringing the whole mess out into the open on this site someone may point Peel in the right direction, before its all too late like Sheffield.
Look at the way G.A. pilots were pushed out by over pricing. DTV's loss, Fishburn and Bagby's gain.
An insider tells me that there was a scrap man looking over the 4 very large WW2 hangars recently. I dont think he was there to fix the roof.
Does anyone know the exact share figures between the 6 councils, Peel and whoever has a stake in the field?
How much did Peel origanlly buy their share of the field for?
I for one think Peel should share any compensation from BMI, it may help DTV (Teesside) stay in business.
Look at the way G.A. pilots were pushed out by over pricing. DTV's loss, Fishburn and Bagby's gain.
An insider tells me that there was a scrap man looking over the 4 very large WW2 hangars recently. I dont think he was there to fix the roof.
Does anyone know the exact share figures between the 6 councils, Peel and whoever has a stake in the field?
How much did Peel origanlly buy their share of the field for?
I for one think Peel should share any compensation from BMI, it may help DTV (Teesside) stay in business.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Hartlepool
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Northern Echo answers
I found some of the answers in todays Northern Echo. (10/12/11)
Peel have been in secret talks since 2009 to obtain all the shares
Councils must find £4.5m to keep shares in Durham Tees Valley Airport (From The Northern Echo)
Peel have been in secret talks since 2009 to obtain all the shares
Councils must find £4.5m to keep shares in Durham Tees Valley Airport (From The Northern Echo)
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: 1/2 a mile to the right of 14 top end of Yeadon
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DTV Future
You say that you will support the airport but thousands no longer do so.You on your own can't sustain passenger flights at DTV.Why have the locals stopped using the airport?Once you get onto the downward spiral the routes decrease,passenger numbers drop,less flights.Its happening now and has been getting worse over the last few years.It can't all be down to bad management,but they haven't helped in the last few years with some of their decision making.Unfortunately DTV is situated between 2 expanding airports,Leeds/Bradford and Newcastle.Why are they doing better than DTV? There provide more flights and are continuing to expand their route networks. This then brings in other airlines who are prepared to offer new destinations that people want to fly to, so further expansion takes place. People may want to fly from their local airport but if there is no where to fly to they go else where.If DTV had managed to bring in a low cost airline.to set up a base maybe they wouldn't be in this predicament who knows.The future does not look good.
but regardless of what I think I'll do my best to support the airport until the end, people on this thread should think twice before posting as they don't realise how potentially damaging some of their comments are.
If DTV had managed to bring in a low cost airline.to set up a base maybe they wouldn't be in this predicament who knows
The fundamental difference between MME and its competitors is that MME serves a small market, and the two airlines mentioned struggled to make the operation work. It appeared at the time that Peels' business model was to increase footfall considerably by attracting low-cost airlines using 737 aircraft, but it has been proven unsustainable from MME IMO. It also seems to be difficult for MME to attract new business due to potential operators already having significant operations at both LBA and NCL.
What I'm trying to say is, does MME offer anything to the Teesside passenger that NCL or LBA cannot?
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Newcastle
Age: 53
Posts: 515
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some interesting and highly irrelevant banter.
The beneficiaries of the law suit could be anyone. We don't know who might have assigned their rights to the proceeds in all the various deals that have gone on, but one thing is for sure, if it doesn't have to be paid to the current operators they won't see a penny.
NCL and LBA have squeezed DTV out and other than those who live nearby there is little if anything that they can offer over their rivals.
The Military will never move there in a month of Sundays and I can't see how the airport can return to profit. There are no routes to fly to places folks want to go and without footfall and pax there won't be any.
Given the economy, the growth of LBA and NCL over the years and the complete decline of DTV, what, apart from blind optimism, can the airport operators do now?
The beneficiaries of the law suit could be anyone. We don't know who might have assigned their rights to the proceeds in all the various deals that have gone on, but one thing is for sure, if it doesn't have to be paid to the current operators they won't see a penny.
NCL and LBA have squeezed DTV out and other than those who live nearby there is little if anything that they can offer over their rivals.
The Military will never move there in a month of Sundays and I can't see how the airport can return to profit. There are no routes to fly to places folks want to go and without footfall and pax there won't be any.
Given the economy, the growth of LBA and NCL over the years and the complete decline of DTV, what, apart from blind optimism, can the airport operators do now?
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Sometimes north, sometimes south
Posts: 1,809
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
1 Post
HW&U:
So many people on this thread seem to start from the assumption that the problem for Airport A is that Airport A's management are doing something wrong. The reality is, for a country with the economy in the state it's in, and especially for a place like Tees-side which used to be the bastion of UK heavy industry, there simply AREN'T ENOUGH PASSENGERS. In the past (before Peel came on the scene), local authorities had the resources to own and support airports. But now they don't so if they don't perform, they close. So it's not a question of what they are or aren't doing right, it's a question of what do you do if you're the owner of a business that has to make a profit or it goes bust. So it's not about the business model, it's about the amount of business.
The problem with airports is that it's not possible to abandon the "basic infrastucture of the airport" - ATC, fire, security, ops, they all have to be there if you want commercial traffic, and if you only have a little of that, your fixed costs don't get covered.
NS
what are they doing right that we are not?
the basic infrastucture of the airport has gone now and I fear there is no way back
NS
This discussion is very narrow minded. Teesside Airport has a big advantage over its main rivals, Newcastle and Leeds, namely Chobham. FRA and FPL provide the core business at Teesside. This gives Teesside a head start over its rivals. However, Peel don't want a successful airport. All they want is the land. Peel were supposed to invest £20m, where is it? The road improvements came from One North East, not Peel. All Peel want is the land. They will close the airport as soon as they can. My feelings are for those who work at the airport.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Newcastle
Age: 53
Posts: 515
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Teesside Airport has a big advantage over its main rivals
Out of curiosity, what do you think Peel could use the land for in the current economic climate?
What are they going to spend £20m on that would produce any return?
I agree - the Peel plan for MME was to do exactly what they did at Liverpool and Sheffield City (and what Stobart's want to do at Carlise) - develop the land for commercial purposes using the presence/development of the airport as leverage to get want they want out of the local councils in terms of planning (local politicians love having airports, so long as they don't have to pay).
If they can develop a successful airport as well, that's a bonus (so yes at Liverpool and no at Sheffield) but it isn't core to their plans it just gives them an advantage when dealing with planners ("you need to let us do this so we can pay for your airport"). What has happened to Peel is the property market has collapsed. As AMC says, if the airport closes what will they do with the land - is there a shortage of brownfield development sites in Teesside??
If they can develop a successful airport as well, that's a bonus (so yes at Liverpool and no at Sheffield) but it isn't core to their plans it just gives them an advantage when dealing with planners ("you need to let us do this so we can pay for your airport"). What has happened to Peel is the property market has collapsed. As AMC says, if the airport closes what will they do with the land - is there a shortage of brownfield development sites in Teesside??
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Hartlepool
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A few facts about DTV over the last few years.
Peel took 75% of shares for £500k!! with the promise of investing £20m.
Sounded good but was never going to happen.
The 6 councils failed to look at Peel as an operation and their core business.
Military do use DTV but only to move troop transports which take up time and room for kit. They do like to use ILS over shoots as well.
Peel started to move the goal posts years ago with the various excuses of not putting money in IF the passenger numbers didnt treble etc.
Staff who had been there years started to see the pattern in the excuses and began to jump ship for other ports.
The trouble with the current management is that the councils have handed the entire operation over for a song and they have nobody there to keep an eye on the running of the place.
If and its a big if, the operators were offered a good deal, Newcastle wouldnt be getting all the routes.
The £6 passenger tax was just another way of making the operators and public avoid the place like the plague. As others have said, no operators, routes, no public, no money.
What does this leave? Look at Peel, and see what they like to build.
Could a new Trafford Centre be on the cards? Thats a Metro Centre to the local people.
I can see only 3 winners in the current scheme of things if they do close it and build a large outlet or houses.
1. Peel,
2, Darlington, and a possible fight between Stockton and Durham councils over the scraps.
As another poster mentioned Peel sat back and watched One North East pay for the road infrastructure to be built.
Its a bit like a landlord who wants a tennant out, make it an unpleasant place to live in and hey presto you get what you want....cheap land and a lot of it between a few large boroughs.
Darlington Council should be ashamed of themselves making it known they wont fight Peel over the latest plans! Handing it to them on a plate.
I wonder why
Sounded good but was never going to happen.
The 6 councils failed to look at Peel as an operation and their core business.
Military do use DTV but only to move troop transports which take up time and room for kit. They do like to use ILS over shoots as well.
Peel started to move the goal posts years ago with the various excuses of not putting money in IF the passenger numbers didnt treble etc.
Staff who had been there years started to see the pattern in the excuses and began to jump ship for other ports.
The trouble with the current management is that the councils have handed the entire operation over for a song and they have nobody there to keep an eye on the running of the place.
If and its a big if, the operators were offered a good deal, Newcastle wouldnt be getting all the routes.
The £6 passenger tax was just another way of making the operators and public avoid the place like the plague. As others have said, no operators, routes, no public, no money.
What does this leave? Look at Peel, and see what they like to build.
Could a new Trafford Centre be on the cards? Thats a Metro Centre to the local people.
I can see only 3 winners in the current scheme of things if they do close it and build a large outlet or houses.
1. Peel,
2, Darlington, and a possible fight between Stockton and Durham councils over the scraps.
As another poster mentioned Peel sat back and watched One North East pay for the road infrastructure to be built.
Its a bit like a landlord who wants a tennant out, make it an unpleasant place to live in and hey presto you get what you want....cheap land and a lot of it between a few large boroughs.
Darlington Council should be ashamed of themselves making it known they wont fight Peel over the latest plans! Handing it to them on a plate.
I wonder why
Northbound - you raise some good points. the only thing that puzzles me - is there actually sufficient demand for a large new shopping centre or lots of new houses, such that a major piece of building works would be profitable for a developer ? Ditto to building industrial units, warehouses or anything else that might use up a large area of land.
As far as I can tell, the area around MME has been having a tough time with regards to the economy compared to the rest of the UK for quite a few years. Building a shiny new shopping mall may create jobs during construction, but retailers will only move in if they expect the local to have plenty of disposable income for the years to come. Houses only get sold if there are plenty of jobs in the area paying significantly more than just the minimum wage.
In my opinion, the only way to get Teesside moving, is a big slug of cash from Westminster to get the local economy growing, as happened with Liverpool in the late 20th century. Might have happened in 2006 when UK plc could do no wrong, but not likely for the next couple of years at least.
As far as I can tell, the area around MME has been having a tough time with regards to the economy compared to the rest of the UK for quite a few years. Building a shiny new shopping mall may create jobs during construction, but retailers will only move in if they expect the local to have plenty of disposable income for the years to come. Houses only get sold if there are plenty of jobs in the area paying significantly more than just the minimum wage.
In my opinion, the only way to get Teesside moving, is a big slug of cash from Westminster to get the local economy growing, as happened with Liverpool in the late 20th century. Might have happened in 2006 when UK plc could do no wrong, but not likely for the next couple of years at least.
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 11th Dec 2011 at 17:53.