DURHAM TEES VALLEY AIRPORT - 5
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Hartlepool
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shopping Centres, compensation and who's money is it?
DJ6, House building is quiet at the moment, but shopping centres such as The Trafford Centre (Peels), The Metro Centre, Teesside Park, all do very well and town centres collapse in the process.
Its all about the land with Peel, and the lure of the £20m was a carrot that the councils couldnt resist. Nobody monitored what they were doing and they are using the DTV losses to offset their other commercial concerns. Clever accounting its called.
One point regarding the court case:
If BMI had the contract with Teesside(DTV) Airport and they didnt honour it.
Why should Peel Plc receive the money, without it going straight into the DTV Airport coffers to replace the missing BMI contract money??
Surely it belongs to the airport and its other share holders?
Question; how many acres does DTV cover? and how far does the £500k Peel paid work out per acre?
Its all about the land with Peel, and the lure of the £20m was a carrot that the councils couldnt resist. Nobody monitored what they were doing and they are using the DTV losses to offset their other commercial concerns. Clever accounting its called.
One point regarding the court case:
If BMI had the contract with Teesside(DTV) Airport and they didnt honour it.
Why should Peel Plc receive the money, without it going straight into the DTV Airport coffers to replace the missing BMI contract money??
Surely it belongs to the airport and its other share holders?
Question; how many acres does DTV cover? and how far does the £500k Peel paid work out per acre?
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: NE ENGLAND
Posts: 957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmmm.. things seem to be gathering pace, there are indeed a great number of issues that the conspiracy theorists can go overboard on.
Simply put, & however it now appears in retrospect, then Peel, probably did acquire MME with the best intentions in mind. They are however, as judged by their previous performance, "cute operators" who were undoubtedly aware of the potential value of the airport as development land at that time, which could at some date in future prop up their balance sheet with a view to covering future operating losses should such a situation transpire.
Their biggest initial mistake was probably to "leave the lunatics to run the asylum" and unfortunately for all concerned they did a great job !!!
With this background then things went from bad to worse. No need to go on & on listing their failings, but on more contemporary issues, then once again on all this talk that seems obsessively linked to land development, IF Peel was this way inclined, then why on earth should they sell out a significant percentage of their interest to VAS ?
The issue is down to bad management, they lost out to LBA & NCL for any number of reasons, some they could possibly have done more about, and others basically the deterioration in the UK economy and the demise of the North East's industrial basis, did the rest.
Looking forward then as I have said on a number of occasions, then no business will continue to fund a loss making subsidiary indefinitely, they have quite claerly decided that "enough is enough" and are proceeding to look to their partners (the councils) to either "put up or shut up" as Peel do not see as to why they should continue to fund continued losses on their own.
The council's now find themselves in a very tricky situaution as in reality they now have to determine a current value of their investment and then act accordingly. What would be extremely interesting would be to have an insight as to how they would value their interest.
Simply put, & however it now appears in retrospect, then Peel, probably did acquire MME with the best intentions in mind. They are however, as judged by their previous performance, "cute operators" who were undoubtedly aware of the potential value of the airport as development land at that time, which could at some date in future prop up their balance sheet with a view to covering future operating losses should such a situation transpire.
Their biggest initial mistake was probably to "leave the lunatics to run the asylum" and unfortunately for all concerned they did a great job !!!
With this background then things went from bad to worse. No need to go on & on listing their failings, but on more contemporary issues, then once again on all this talk that seems obsessively linked to land development, IF Peel was this way inclined, then why on earth should they sell out a significant percentage of their interest to VAS ?
The issue is down to bad management, they lost out to LBA & NCL for any number of reasons, some they could possibly have done more about, and others basically the deterioration in the UK economy and the demise of the North East's industrial basis, did the rest.
Looking forward then as I have said on a number of occasions, then no business will continue to fund a loss making subsidiary indefinitely, they have quite claerly decided that "enough is enough" and are proceeding to look to their partners (the councils) to either "put up or shut up" as Peel do not see as to why they should continue to fund continued losses on their own.
The council's now find themselves in a very tricky situaution as in reality they now have to determine a current value of their investment and then act accordingly. What would be extremely interesting would be to have an insight as to how they would value their interest.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Hartlepool
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They have previous for it. ie Sheffield Airport.
Cant see the promised £20m investment from where I am standing over the last few years. Or was it £20,000 and we all misunderstood the cheap sale price of £500,000
Durham Tees Valley Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As for VAS, smoke and mirrors, a bit like pension money.
Skyman, Peel management have been in charge all along, thats why numbers dropped and operators are saying that DTV fee's are too high
At least One North East who dont exist now have put the new roads in for them
Cant see the promised £20m investment from where I am standing over the last few years. Or was it £20,000 and we all misunderstood the cheap sale price of £500,000
Durham Tees Valley Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As for VAS, smoke and mirrors, a bit like pension money.
Skyman, Peel management have been in charge all along, thats why numbers dropped and operators are saying that DTV fee's are too high
At least One North East who dont exist now have put the new roads in for them
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: up north
Posts: 310
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Comparing the econo-geographic position of the MME site to the equivalent of a Trafford Park or Metro centre does not stack up. As you say, Teesside already has Teesside park, and that is struggling. The "success" of the Metro Centre and Trafford Park are because of close vicinity to a large populous hinterland combined with good road and public transport links. By contrast, the population of the whole of Tees Valley (if such a concept actually exists) is small vs Tyneside, and tiny cf to Manchester. Nor does Teesside have the financial and other service industries (nor the Nissans) that continue to buoy the Tyne and Wear conglomeration. It's the same basic underlying reasons why MME will always struggle as a scheduled air service airport.
And don't forget that the road system was a political sop after ONe had upset everybody by suggesting that MME should no longer be supported for pax services, and the region should concentrate solely on developing NCL. The political firestorm at the time was significant, but the economic logic was spot on.
And don't forget that the road system was a political sop after ONe had upset everybody by suggesting that MME should no longer be supported for pax services, and the region should concentrate solely on developing NCL. The political firestorm at the time was significant, but the economic logic was spot on.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: NE ENGLAND
Posts: 957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Peel management have been in charge all along, that’s why numbers dropped and operators are saying that DTV fee's are too high
There is not room on this forum to address this more specifically as naming names is not permissible. However I think you may find that many of the "characters" involved predated Peel. You should also consider that Peel themselves under took major internal reorganization up to board level in attempt to address problems that they became faced with.
You need to look at things from a different perspective, IF the incumbent management were promised funds you state £20M! that were not forthcoming then they should have done something about it as it would have been they who had the opportunity, though clearly the maintaining of their job, would seem to have been the primary objective in what was a quasi public organization.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Teesside
Posts: 636
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gazette Article
My gut feeling here is that the majority owners have asked for money from the councils at exactly the time the councils are probably going to say 'we can't afford it'. The lack of cash from the councils 'could' then be sited as a reason for the business being unsustainable. Maybe a half disguised attempt to deflect some of the criticism away from Peel/VAS should any future significant decision be made....
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Hartlepool
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lets stop the rot before its too late!
Skyman, Lets not mince words here, the GA pilots were pushed out by high landing and hanagarage fee's.
From what I've been told the various operators have looked elsewhere because DTV's management are asking for too much money in fee's.
If you ran an airline and Leeds offered me £2 per landing and MME (dtv) asked for £2000 per landing, who would you pick??
Its all about management and who are the management running the show from the Trafford Centre?
I for one dont want to watch another Sheffield Airport take place.
Peel wont be losing money from DTV losses, their accountants will just be offsetting it against the thriving Robin Hood airport.
Did you know that their other field down near Doncaster (Robin Hood) was once a large RAF base called Finningley, which had just had millions spent on it, including a new runway, when it was suprisingly sold to the private sector! Guess who the private owner is?
RAF Finningley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hipenn, as for Teesside Park, its a VERY busy shopping centre. One which Stockton town centre could probably do without. I bet you also know a lot of people who travel 50 miles from the DTV area to the Metro Centre to shop. Its a demand thing
From what I've been told the various operators have looked elsewhere because DTV's management are asking for too much money in fee's.
If you ran an airline and Leeds offered me £2 per landing and MME (dtv) asked for £2000 per landing, who would you pick??
Its all about management and who are the management running the show from the Trafford Centre?
I for one dont want to watch another Sheffield Airport take place.
Peel wont be losing money from DTV losses, their accountants will just be offsetting it against the thriving Robin Hood airport.
Did you know that their other field down near Doncaster (Robin Hood) was once a large RAF base called Finningley, which had just had millions spent on it, including a new runway, when it was suprisingly sold to the private sector! Guess who the private owner is?
RAF Finningley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hipenn, as for Teesside Park, its a VERY busy shopping centre. One which Stockton town centre could probably do without. I bet you also know a lot of people who travel 50 miles from the DTV area to the Metro Centre to shop. Its a demand thing
Peel wont be losing money from DTV losses, their accountants will just be offsetting it against the thriving Robin Hood airport.
Peel Airports losses double : Liverpool Airport News Stories
All regional airports will continue to be squeezed by their bigger competitors, that includes all Peel/VAS airports. Its only going to get harder by all accounts.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Sometimes north, sometimes south
Posts: 1,809
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
1 Post
It may be worth remembering that the business case for Doncaster Airport was based on a huge proportion of the traffic - from memory it's around 80% - being simply stolen from Manchester, LBA, EMA and Humberside. That's a clear indication that we have too many airports. If Peel's vision of attracting lots of airlines away from existing airports - KLM and Humberside are a notable example - hasn't worked, and the 'new travellers' bit of the market has dried up, there's nothing left.
In this context DTV's clearly one of the 'stolen from' airports.
NS
In this context DTV's clearly one of the 'stolen from' airports.
NS
KLM DTV
oh dear its getting dangerously serious now.
I thought i read somwhere that KLM had just signed a 5 year deal with the airport?
also anyone know if Peel have put a deadline on the payment back to them from the councils?
I thought i read somwhere that KLM had just signed a 5 year deal with the airport?
also anyone know if Peel have put a deadline on the payment back to them from the councils?
Doubt whether any contract with KLM has anything too punative in it - after all MME are hardly in a position to dictate terms.
On the other hand, what is the practical implications of any change in Local Authority shareholdings - is there really that much difference between 25% and 10% (or what ever the exact figures are)?
On the other hand, what is the practical implications of any change in Local Authority shareholdings - is there really that much difference between 25% and 10% (or what ever the exact figures are)?
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Teesside
Posts: 636
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
KLM
I last had direct contact with KLM two months ago and was told KLM would be here whilstever there was an airport to fly into and yields remain as they are or above. In short...no plans to up sticks...
Of course this can change so I'm interested in seeing where this rumour really comes from? If true, then its curtains pure and simple.
Of course this can change so I'm interested in seeing where this rumour really comes from? If true, then its curtains pure and simple.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here, there and everywhere
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The times I've flown KLM from DTV the flights have always been near enough full...I don't understand why the time changed with the middle rotation from evening to lunchtime but I really do hope that MME can hold onto KLM.
There's a fantastic core of staff left at the airport, most of which have been there over 10 years and live and breathe the airport. I would hate to see it go under as it means former colleagues; friends, will once again have to go through the trauma of uncertainty.
RYR had good loads from MME, but as stated many times before, loads don't necessarily mean good yields and if the fees are still too high then there's not much the airlines can work with.
Unfortunately some poor management decisions in the past coupled with a huge economic downturn have compounded the issue...I just hope that VAS have a rabbit they can pull out of the hat (allbeit a large one is required!)
Just my 2p...
-HD-
There's a fantastic core of staff left at the airport, most of which have been there over 10 years and live and breathe the airport. I would hate to see it go under as it means former colleagues; friends, will once again have to go through the trauma of uncertainty.
RYR had good loads from MME, but as stated many times before, loads don't necessarily mean good yields and if the fees are still too high then there's not much the airlines can work with.
Unfortunately some poor management decisions in the past coupled with a huge economic downturn have compounded the issue...I just hope that VAS have a rabbit they can pull out of the hat (allbeit a large one is required!)
Just my 2p...
-HD-
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: North East
Posts: 521
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At last an MP who is going to ask a few questions, I know hes made a fuss a few times but this time the local population and businesses need to support him in causing Peel to answer a few question and while we're on it lets get the local councils and past managment staff from the airport answering some questions!
I do know in the past Durham council have blocked/made life hard for MME, could that of been due to their share of NCL?
All parties involved in running MME over the last 30 years need to answer some difficult questions!
I do know in the past Durham council have blocked/made life hard for MME, could that of been due to their share of NCL?
All parties involved in running MME over the last 30 years need to answer some difficult questions!
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Doncaster
Age: 41
Posts: 556
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't know where the thought that DSA is doing well has come from. It is probably in more danger than DTV! The number of movments per day is a joke. Just one outbound flight on some days, and the loss of flights for next year is even more alarming.
It appears the Peel and VAS airports are struggling big time. I think Liverpool will be ok, but I can't see much of a future for the other two.
It appears the Peel and VAS airports are struggling big time. I think Liverpool will be ok, but I can't see much of a future for the other two.
All Peel airports are running at a loss..
TimmyW - you sound quite negative on DSA. I agree that DSA is not a particularly large airport - but why do you think it's in more trouble than MME ? It does at least have that one thing that all airports seem to crave - namely passengers. For the 12 months to Oct-2011, DSA has 829,079 passengers (more than either Exeter or Inverness), while MME managed just 191,865 according to CAA statistics.