CARDIFF
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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WWs (sic) ridiculous reduction
Look. As I and others keep trying to say, airlines run routes to make money. That's all. We don't do it to provide services, to keep the population connected, to fill other people's notions of social desirability or to make airports and their supporters happy. We run them to make money. End of. If by dint of trying to do that, we manage to hit one or more of the other factors, great, but we won't do the other factors instead!
TSR2 - ain't that the truth. 14% down on the annual is a really poor performance - not perhaps as a one off, but this is now becoming a trend...
TA
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Nice to see Cardiff getting some column inches today!
Ailing airport criticised for ramping up charges
For those who don't get the paper version of the newspaper, it was front page story, as well as a double page spread inside. All of which was generally how awful CWL is compared to how great BRS is.
Another triumph for the airport management!
Ailing airport criticised for ramping up charges
For those who don't get the paper version of the newspaper, it was front page story, as well as a double page spread inside. All of which was generally how awful CWL is compared to how great BRS is.
Another triumph for the airport management!
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This is a map of week average weekly income from thisismoney.co.uk that was originally linked to on another website.
http://img.thisismoney.co.uk/i/pix/2...ea_952x806.jpg
I think it highlights the market issue for CWL quite well.
The 1 hour drive catchment area for CWL is noticeably worse off than that for BRS. CWL firmly includes areas that fall into the lowest income group, whereas BRS is dipping its toes in the highest income group areas just east of Swindon.
http://img.thisismoney.co.uk/i/pix/2...ea_952x806.jpg
I think it highlights the market issue for CWL quite well.
The 1 hour drive catchment area for CWL is noticeably worse off than that for BRS. CWL firmly includes areas that fall into the lowest income group, whereas BRS is dipping its toes in the highest income group areas just east of Swindon.
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Here are some quotes from Julian Carr, head of bmi baby regarding Cardiff.
Julian Carr also confirmed the focus of its Cardiff base will continue to be Med routes.
We are focused on making sure the routes we fly meet demand, and there is stability in CWL now going forward
CWL works well for us in the summer, and this is our focus. It is a good base with loyal customers
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Slightly different emphasis from baby's route development guy here,
Same place is now asking for questions to the Welsh Assembly Govt., having stirred up the Echo stink and put the CWL Consultative Committee into a new mind-set. This is, of course, a place that originated here on PPrune ... and proud of it!
Same place is now asking for questions to the Welsh Assembly Govt., having stirred up the Echo stink and put the CWL Consultative Committee into a new mind-set. This is, of course, a place that originated here on PPrune ... and proud of it!
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Guys,
In the days of Air Cymru, Inter European or similar how many aircraft did the CWL operation support, certainly with IEA it was one going on two aircraft and that was IT holidays and, in the main, during the summers.
So, nowadays, during the summer CWL has BMIbaby at, circa, 1.5 aircraft and IT operations also, is that not telling you something ... that CWL doesn't have the catchment area to support a more substantial operation?
Keep on dreaming regarding medium jet operations but CWL might be better placed in attracting business 'connection' traffic much the same as (only) KLm currently provides.
In the days of Air Cymru, Inter European or similar how many aircraft did the CWL operation support, certainly with IEA it was one going on two aircraft and that was IT holidays and, in the main, during the summers.
So, nowadays, during the summer CWL has BMIbaby at, circa, 1.5 aircraft and IT operations also, is that not telling you something ... that CWL doesn't have the catchment area to support a more substantial operation?
Keep on dreaming regarding medium jet operations but CWL might be better placed in attracting business 'connection' traffic much the same as (only) KLm currently provides.
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A few observations.
1) IT Hols are expensively loaded at CWL.
2) Many Welsh holidaymakers go IT from BRS because of this.
3) TOM stuggle to fill their jets and share with TCX on some routes
4) WW do the same.
5) TCX couldn't fill the 321 with enough profitable pax so it went to EMA who could.
6) Many of our IT customers are unemployed and on benefits. really.
7) Most ventures out of CWL have failed in the last 25 years. (my timeline for CWL)
8) The airport management, for all their faults, try to generate new business, but it just ain't there.
9) Unless there is a major turnaround in the Welsh economy in the next 2 years (or less) I can see the IT operators contracting further. Summer only.
10. Wales had its chance, the Assemby should have built a major new airport with associated hi speed raillinks to th SE/NW/Midlands at the old steel works at Newport. But alas....
1) IT Hols are expensively loaded at CWL.
2) Many Welsh holidaymakers go IT from BRS because of this.
3) TOM stuggle to fill their jets and share with TCX on some routes
4) WW do the same.
5) TCX couldn't fill the 321 with enough profitable pax so it went to EMA who could.
6) Many of our IT customers are unemployed and on benefits. really.
7) Most ventures out of CWL have failed in the last 25 years. (my timeline for CWL)
8) The airport management, for all their faults, try to generate new business, but it just ain't there.
9) Unless there is a major turnaround in the Welsh economy in the next 2 years (or less) I can see the IT operators contracting further. Summer only.
10. Wales had its chance, the Assemby should have built a major new airport with associated hi speed raillinks to th SE/NW/Midlands at the old steel works at Newport. But alas....
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macdo,
Regardless of high speed rail links, or similar, there is a mentality whereas passengers cannot imagine themselves crossing the border from England in to Wales to go on a holiday to, perhaps, Greece ... and I say this as an 'Englander' currently living just up the road from CWL
Furthermore it certainly isn't helped by the charges the 'Frogs' charge for crossing the Severn.
From CWL, as soon as one is nearing the Severn X'ing then it becomes a toss up between BRS and CWL, as soon as one is around Ross-On-Wye then a toss up between BHX, BRS and CWL, mid Wales then BHX, north Wales then BHX, LPL, MAN, so realistically CWL's catchment area is from Newport west across south Wales, not a vastly populated catchment area!
I was working at CWL as they negotiated the deal for the BA maintenance base to be built there, they were jumping up and down at attracting such business because there's, pretty much, naff all else business around to attract.
Regardless of high speed rail links, or similar, there is a mentality whereas passengers cannot imagine themselves crossing the border from England in to Wales to go on a holiday to, perhaps, Greece ... and I say this as an 'Englander' currently living just up the road from CWL
Furthermore it certainly isn't helped by the charges the 'Frogs' charge for crossing the Severn.
From CWL, as soon as one is nearing the Severn X'ing then it becomes a toss up between BRS and CWL, as soon as one is around Ross-On-Wye then a toss up between BHX, BRS and CWL, mid Wales then BHX, north Wales then BHX, LPL, MAN, so realistically CWL's catchment area is from Newport west across south Wales, not a vastly populated catchment area!
I was working at CWL as they negotiated the deal for the BA maintenance base to be built there, they were jumping up and down at attracting such business because there's, pretty much, naff all else business around to attract.
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macdo is full of s***
A few observations.
1) IT Hols are expensively loaded at CWL.
- but the loads are always very good!
2) Many Welsh holidaymakers go IT from BRS because of this.
- my previous response rules out this
3) TOM stuggle to fill their jets and share with TCX on some routes
- they both share with each other so they can operate certain routes on more than one day a week, as at other airports
4) WW do the same.
- TCX use WW seats so they can use their a/c on medium haul-routes to eastern Europe, again, quite common in this industry
5) TCX couldn't fill the 321 with enough profitable pax so it went to EMA who could.
- the TCX a/c is always well within the 80-100% load factor, apparently the decision on a/c allocation is still to be finalised.
6) Many of our IT customers are unemployed and on benefits. really.
- unemployment is somewhat a higher percentage in south Wales than the UK average so your fact about people travelling to Bristol is rubbish, why pay to travel?
7) Most ventures out of CWL have failed in the last 25 years. (my timeline for CWL)
- hmmm, thats a very long timespan. I think some analyst should look at this before we can make a judgement.
8) The airport management, for all their faults, try to generate new business, but it just ain't there.
- they try, and then can carry on trying (as poo as they are at it), its there - its just trying to get it back there!
9) Unless there is a major turnaround in the Welsh economy in the next 2 years (or less) I can see the IT operators contracting further. Summer only.
- CWL will always be a favourite for charters and low cost summer/domestic routes; loads&yeild are always good, and the network currently there works well for ALL operators
10. Wales had its chance, the Assemby should have built a major new airport with associated hi speed raillinks to th SE/NW/Midlands at the old steel works at Newport.
- this was never going to happen!
1) IT Hols are expensively loaded at CWL.
- but the loads are always very good!
2) Many Welsh holidaymakers go IT from BRS because of this.
- my previous response rules out this
3) TOM stuggle to fill their jets and share with TCX on some routes
- they both share with each other so they can operate certain routes on more than one day a week, as at other airports
4) WW do the same.
- TCX use WW seats so they can use their a/c on medium haul-routes to eastern Europe, again, quite common in this industry
5) TCX couldn't fill the 321 with enough profitable pax so it went to EMA who could.
- the TCX a/c is always well within the 80-100% load factor, apparently the decision on a/c allocation is still to be finalised.
6) Many of our IT customers are unemployed and on benefits. really.
- unemployment is somewhat a higher percentage in south Wales than the UK average so your fact about people travelling to Bristol is rubbish, why pay to travel?
7) Most ventures out of CWL have failed in the last 25 years. (my timeline for CWL)
- hmmm, thats a very long timespan. I think some analyst should look at this before we can make a judgement.
8) The airport management, for all their faults, try to generate new business, but it just ain't there.
- they try, and then can carry on trying (as poo as they are at it), its there - its just trying to get it back there!
9) Unless there is a major turnaround in the Welsh economy in the next 2 years (or less) I can see the IT operators contracting further. Summer only.
- CWL will always be a favourite for charters and low cost summer/domestic routes; loads&yeild are always good, and the network currently there works well for ALL operators
10. Wales had its chance, the Assemby should have built a major new airport with associated hi speed raillinks to th SE/NW/Midlands at the old steel works at Newport.
- this was never going to happen!
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Flybe have added a 3rd rotation on a Sunday to EDI and it looks like the same is about to happen on a Wednesday and Friday with 3 daily showing EDI-CWL and only 2 CWL-EDI. So we will be at 3 daily -/T/W/T/F/-/S and 2 daily M with 1 daily on a Saturday.
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With respect to PPrune, it is interesting to see the Welsh Assembly Govt.'s answers to tough questions. Equally, PPrune members might want to support or argue a few points made here.
In general, the site pointed to in these links is respectful and supportive of PPrune, which is far larger and broader. Perhaps the two organisationbs should be talking!
In general, the site pointed to in these links is respectful and supportive of PPrune, which is far larger and broader. Perhaps the two organisationbs should be talking!
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You mean the Welsh Assembly are not already aware that CWL is already on the National Express network? Heads up backsides or what?
The X91 bus service is on a, so to speak, National Express 'codeshare' connecting CWL with Cardiff Central National Express services!
And as for the millions spent on the north/south Manx2 service, would have been better spent maintaining a weekly 'black bag' refuse collection in the CWL vicinity ..... this collection has recently gone fortnightly!!!
P.S. Just checked on the National Express website and, it seems, the CWL service has been withdrawn, i.e. nobody was interested in using the service, but it was available until recently.
The X91 bus service is on a, so to speak, National Express 'codeshare' connecting CWL with Cardiff Central National Express services!
And as for the millions spent on the north/south Manx2 service, would have been better spent maintaining a weekly 'black bag' refuse collection in the CWL vicinity ..... this collection has recently gone fortnightly!!!
P.S. Just checked on the National Express website and, it seems, the CWL service has been withdrawn, i.e. nobody was interested in using the service, but it was available until recently.
Last edited by Phileas Fogg; 14th Feb 2011 at 22:55.
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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Certainly some interesting replies, PeterP, congrats for getting them.
However - the sheer amateurism of the bulk of her replies, tempered with the dead hand of the civil service, once again shows why government in general, and the WAG in particular, seem to be unable to tell sh1t from chocolate as far as aviation policy goes. Some thoughts....
1. Why in the name of all that is holy is anyone thinking about expanding the airport? The place is a ghost town. Why make it a ghost city?
2. How can she continually defend the waste of public resource that is the NS Airlink, when even the WAG's own report poured scornful contempt on the commercials of the service?
3. When will WAG get someone in who understands how airlines operate, and what they need to see in an airport before they start routes?
I'll give them free consulting on 3 - MARKET DATA THAT SHOWS A MARKET. Sadly lacking right now. No amount of straight roads, weasel words from politicians or shiny new terminal buildings will make up for that.
TA
However - the sheer amateurism of the bulk of her replies, tempered with the dead hand of the civil service, once again shows why government in general, and the WAG in particular, seem to be unable to tell sh1t from chocolate as far as aviation policy goes. Some thoughts....
1. Why in the name of all that is holy is anyone thinking about expanding the airport? The place is a ghost town. Why make it a ghost city?
2. How can she continually defend the waste of public resource that is the NS Airlink, when even the WAG's own report poured scornful contempt on the commercials of the service?
3. When will WAG get someone in who understands how airlines operate, and what they need to see in an airport before they start routes?
I'll give them free consulting on 3 - MARKET DATA THAT SHOWS A MARKET. Sadly lacking right now. No amount of straight roads, weasel words from politicians or shiny new terminal buildings will make up for that.
TA
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PPruNe caused WAN. The network happened because of negative, unconstructive comments in this thread. It produced a reaction from people who refused to accept failure for Welsh aviation, aerospace and travel. The more this discussion knocks Wales, the stronger the feeling behind an alternative, positive set of goals:
A globally-connected Wales for both business and leisure
Wales as a centre of excellence in aviation and aerospace
Growth in air-based leisure, tourism and training among Wales smaller airports
Innovation and vibrancy fostered and recognised throughout the sector.
All in line with the constraints placed on air/aerospace by the environment
TA, PF et al, you are warmly invited to support these aims. Or, of course, you can continue to spit from the sidelines if you wish. But others are engaging, creating and pushing forward. I'd suggest we are getting more attention and generating a greater stakeholder base than negativity will achieve.
WAG has made a start in talking to the industry as represented by WAN - and, by extension, PPruNe. Dead hand reactions are unhelpful. We need to persuade them gently in the right direction rather than dismiss or insult them. Get a bloody grip, folks!
Omigod, I just had a rant!
A globally-connected Wales for both business and leisure
Wales as a centre of excellence in aviation and aerospace
Growth in air-based leisure, tourism and training among Wales smaller airports
Innovation and vibrancy fostered and recognised throughout the sector.
All in line with the constraints placed on air/aerospace by the environment
TA, PF et al, you are warmly invited to support these aims. Or, of course, you can continue to spit from the sidelines if you wish. But others are engaging, creating and pushing forward. I'd suggest we are getting more attention and generating a greater stakeholder base than negativity will achieve.
WAG has made a start in talking to the industry as represented by WAN - and, by extension, PPruNe. Dead hand reactions are unhelpful. We need to persuade them gently in the right direction rather than dismiss or insult them. Get a bloody grip, folks!
Omigod, I just had a rant!
Last edited by PeterP; 15th Feb 2011 at 21:34.
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Phileas Fogg,
you are absolutely correct, on this thread I thought that the limits of CWL's catchment area were self-evident. But it is without any doubt the most limiting factor. I was trying to inject a few personal observations from my 25 years viewpoint as a pilot at CWL.
FANRAILUK, thank you for your uncouth response. Your counter-points are duly noted.
you are absolutely correct, on this thread I thought that the limits of CWL's catchment area were self-evident. But it is without any doubt the most limiting factor. I was trying to inject a few personal observations from my 25 years viewpoint as a pilot at CWL.
FANRAILUK, thank you for your uncouth response. Your counter-points are duly noted.
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After months of waiting the "AviaVox" today was installed at CWL. We get to her the automated announcements for the first time this coming Monday
No more mobile tannoys cutting out mid-announcement!
No more mobile tannoys cutting out mid-announcement!