CARDIFF
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Manx2.com announced as winner of 4 year Cardiff-Anglesey contract
With less than a month before their contract was due to end. Manx2.com has finally been awarded the 4 year Cardiff-Anglesey contract.
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The Future
What new routes are viable for Manx2.com to now operate from our Welsh Airports?
Source
The Future
What new routes are viable for Manx2.com to now operate from our Welsh Airports?
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Cardiff-Anglesey
The subsidy has gone up to £1.2 million per year, a 50% increase on the previous subsidy at a time when all public bodies have to rein in their spending at draconian rates.
I've just looked at a video on the BBC Wales website that calculates that each flight is subsidised at around £2,300 and that if each flight was full each passenger would be subsidised to the tune of £121.
At the moment the 19-seat aircraft have average loads that are barely out of single figures so the subsidy per passenger would be considerably greater than £121.
When AMs and civil servants use the flights presumably they can reclaim the cost of their fares as expenses so the cost to the public purse is even higher.
The WAG Deputy First Minister must consider himself fortunate that he lives on Anglesey.
I've just looked at a video on the BBC Wales website that calculates that each flight is subsidised at around £2,300 and that if each flight was full each passenger would be subsidised to the tune of £121.
At the moment the 19-seat aircraft have average loads that are barely out of single figures so the subsidy per passenger would be considerably greater than £121.
When AMs and civil servants use the flights presumably they can reclaim the cost of their fares as expenses so the cost to the public purse is even higher.
The WAG Deputy First Minister must consider himself fortunate that he lives on Anglesey.
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Just cut the pretence and call it TAFFORCE 1 ! Essentially it is a Welsh government aircraft that is happy to make a few extra quid from the handful of normals (in the loosest sense of the word) that want to go to an air force station in north wales. Although WikiLeaks reports that Hillary Clinton thinks it could be a back door to a free Welsh Airforce.
If you promise not to tell anyone I know where there's a few harriers and an old aircraft carrier going cheap that would make Dave think twice about slashing the Welsh public sector !
Slightly seriously though a longer term contract could allow Manx2 to look at some other routes. Although if you want to go on a Metroliner you are a braver man than me.
If you promise not to tell anyone I know where there's a few harriers and an old aircraft carrier going cheap that would make Dave think twice about slashing the Welsh public sector !
Slightly seriously though a longer term contract could allow Manx2 to look at some other routes. Although if you want to go on a Metroliner you are a braver man than me.
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We are unlikely to see the Metroliner at Cardiff unless covering for maintenance/technical reasons or operating inbound from another base.
The engineers & flight deck based at Cardiff are FLM Aviation crew which are the sole operators of the Dornier 228 for Manx2.com
Dornier 228 - Operated by FLM
DIFLM / DCMNX / DILKA
Let 410 - Operated by Van Air Europe
OKASA/OKTCA/OKUBA
Metroliner - Operated by Flightlinebcn
ECGPS
Jetstream 31 - Operated by Jetstream Executive Aviation
GOAKI
We can't blame Manx2.com as they have bid for a contract that was up for grabs. If you have any complaints then blame the politicians that made the decision.
Hopefully the popular Anglesey-Isle of Man service will make a return in the summer with more routes from Cardiff.
What other destinations do you think are viable?
The engineers & flight deck based at Cardiff are FLM Aviation crew which are the sole operators of the Dornier 228 for Manx2.com
Dornier 228 - Operated by FLM
DIFLM / DCMNX / DILKA
Let 410 - Operated by Van Air Europe
OKASA/OKTCA/OKUBA
Metroliner - Operated by Flightlinebcn
ECGPS
Jetstream 31 - Operated by Jetstream Executive Aviation
GOAKI
We can't blame Manx2.com as they have bid for a contract that was up for grabs. If you have any complaints then blame the politicians that made the decision.
Hopefully the popular Anglesey-Isle of Man service will make a return in the summer with more routes from Cardiff.
What other destinations do you think are viable?
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Manx2 in Wales
I guess they might have a look at Cardiff-Guernsey, a route not covered for a considerable time - they fly from Gloucester to Jersey - and I believe that some people think that MAN and LBA are gaps in the network.
And what about Pembrey Airport? Isn't that becoming more active for small commercial aircraft? Perhaps it could be packaged in Ryanair-speak as Swansea West.
Maybe if there was, say, a two-aircraft base serving Wales and based at CWL some flights could be organised from Pembrey to serve West Wales - perhaps to the Channel Islands.
If the WAG is spending all this public money on the government shuttle it would surely hope to see a better return in the form of an extended Manx2 network in and around Wales.
It wouldn't surprise me if the shuttle didn't go to 3 x daily. I'm not saying it should, just that it wouldn't surprise me.
And what about Pembrey Airport? Isn't that becoming more active for small commercial aircraft? Perhaps it could be packaged in Ryanair-speak as Swansea West.
Maybe if there was, say, a two-aircraft base serving Wales and based at CWL some flights could be organised from Pembrey to serve West Wales - perhaps to the Channel Islands.
If the WAG is spending all this public money on the government shuttle it would surely hope to see a better return in the form of an extended Manx2 network in and around Wales.
It wouldn't surprise me if the shuttle didn't go to 3 x daily. I'm not saying it should, just that it wouldn't surprise me.
MV,
I agree with the chances of the VLY-CWL 'Bureaucrats' Special' increasing to three daily (Mon-Fri only) for one simple reason:
Existing flight times allow for a full day's work at either end of the route. When did you ever hear of a politician or bureaucrat working a full day? A middle-day flight would be full of people either going to 'work' or returning home!
I agree with the chances of the VLY-CWL 'Bureaucrats' Special' increasing to three daily (Mon-Fri only) for one simple reason:
Existing flight times allow for a full day's work at either end of the route. When did you ever hear of a politician or bureaucrat working a full day? A middle-day flight would be full of people either going to 'work' or returning home!
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I remain amazed at the sheer cheek of the WAG in supporting this route in any case, but the fact that in a time of serious fiscal shortage they have raised the subsidy still higher makes me also wonder what the WAG opposition are doing.
Good on Manx2 for getting the contract, but can anyone really justify £1.2m?
Another thought - this subsidy is designed to cover the NS Wales link. Manx2 will need to tread very carefully about opening new routes, since any whiff of cross subsidy may well predicate action by our Audit Commission chums. The contract is specific to a route after all, and is not a call to arms to allow Manx2 to develop a network out of Cardiff or anywhere else. I can imagine that if it is seen that way, you can expect flybe to go - quite correctly - into orbit.
TA
Good on Manx2 for getting the contract, but can anyone really justify £1.2m?
Another thought - this subsidy is designed to cover the NS Wales link. Manx2 will need to tread very carefully about opening new routes, since any whiff of cross subsidy may well predicate action by our Audit Commission chums. The contract is specific to a route after all, and is not a call to arms to allow Manx2 to develop a network out of Cardiff or anywhere else. I can imagine that if it is seen that way, you can expect flybe to go - quite correctly - into orbit.
TA
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There would be no cross subsidy on the route. The reason why Manx2.com didn't operate anymore flights the last 7months is that if there was no contract after the 7 months and the aircraft were to be removed from cwl then they probably didn't want to comit to new routes.
Aer arann for years have operated pso / self funding routes from their based so shouldn't cause an issue.
Aer arann for years have operated pso / self funding routes from their based so shouldn't cause an issue.
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Ah, perhaps I wasn't quite clear.
If Manx2 now start opening routes at Cardiff, based on the fact that they have an aircraft there (due to the highly subsidised route to the north), then other operators are more than entitled to ask if those routes would have happened if the NS link was not in place.
If the answer to that is no, then there is a case to argue that the WAG is, de facto, funding other routes, albeit obliquely. THAT is something other operators should object to, and I would bet some of them will.
If that indeed is the position, then what that says to me is that the funding on the NS link IS a part of the thinking on new routes. If they had routes that could stand on their own two commercial feet without the NS link, then perhaps they would have started them, hmm?
The Aer Arann case is different - they had a base that was there before PSO, they just obtained PSO routes from there. Hard to argue that the PSO routes started the base...
If Manx2 now start opening routes at Cardiff, based on the fact that they have an aircraft there (due to the highly subsidised route to the north), then other operators are more than entitled to ask if those routes would have happened if the NS link was not in place.
If the answer to that is no, then there is a case to argue that the WAG is, de facto, funding other routes, albeit obliquely. THAT is something other operators should object to, and I would bet some of them will.
The reason why Manx2.com didn't operate anymore flights the last 7months is that if there was no contract after the 7 months and the aircraft were to be removed from cwl then they probably didn't want to comit to new routes
The Aer Arann case is different - they had a base that was there before PSO, they just obtained PSO routes from there. Hard to argue that the PSO routes started the base...
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Merchant Venturer I reckon your figures are 100% too high. Have you confused rotations with sectors. 
20 sectors a week x 50 weeks is about 1000 sectors = £1200 per sector = £65 a seat subsidy not £120
Still nice work if u can get it but its not £2300 a sector!
20 sectors a week x 50 weeks is about 1000 sectors = £1200 per sector = £65 a seat subsidy not £120 Still nice work if u can get it but its not £2300 a sector!
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Hello jetstreamtechrecords
These are the figures that BBC Wales put out on their video.
I didn't check them which was probably a mistake given the media's dubious track record for accuracy in all sorts of things.
Given that the route is running at approximately 50% load factor they would be about right in terms of subsidy per passenger at the moment though BBC Wales was working on full loads.
I certainly have no axe to grind with Manx2. If the WAG feels this is a correct use of public money they will have to answer to the voters. The political opposition in Wales has criticised the move but that's what oppositions do of course.
Twin Aisle has a valid point when he says that if Manx2 only intend to set up more routes from CWL on the basis of the subsidy then other airlines might shout foul. Then again it only needs Manx2 to say they were going to anyway to make it difficult to prove the subsidy had a bearing.
These are the figures that BBC Wales put out on their video.
I didn't check them which was probably a mistake given the media's dubious track record for accuracy in all sorts of things.
Given that the route is running at approximately 50% load factor they would be about right in terms of subsidy per passenger at the moment though BBC Wales was working on full loads.
I certainly have no axe to grind with Manx2. If the WAG feels this is a correct use of public money they will have to answer to the voters. The political opposition in Wales has criticised the move but that's what oppositions do of course.
Twin Aisle has a valid point when he says that if Manx2 only intend to set up more routes from CWL on the basis of the subsidy then other airlines might shout foul. Then again it only needs Manx2 to say they were going to anyway to make it difficult to prove the subsidy had a bearing.
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Yes,
BBC did say a £120 per seat subsidy but even a subsidy of circa £65 per seat, well the British/Welsh taxpayer is being scammed, a subsidy of circa £1,200 per flight, a Do228 burns in the region of, not too far off, a gallon of avtur per minute, somebody is making a killing out of this and it's not the taxpayer!
And these guys, in this thread, suggest 'we' have more routes from Manx2, yeah sure, how many such subsidised routes can the taxpayers of Britain/Wales afford for Manx2 to operate?
BBC did say a £120 per seat subsidy but even a subsidy of circa £65 per seat, well the British/Welsh taxpayer is being scammed, a subsidy of circa £1,200 per flight, a Do228 burns in the region of, not too far off, a gallon of avtur per minute, somebody is making a killing out of this and it's not the taxpayer!
And these guys, in this thread, suggest 'we' have more routes from Manx2, yeah sure, how many such subsidised routes can the taxpayers of Britain/Wales afford for Manx2 to operate?
Cardiff to Valley
Is there any justification why this route operates to such a peripheral North Wales point as Valley, rather than to Caernarvon, which is notably closer to the main population points in North-West Wales, or to Hawarden, which is far more convenient for a much larger Welsh hinterland, including the largest town in North Wales, namely Wrexham.
Is there any justification why this route operates to such a peripheral North Wales point as Valley, rather than to Caernarvon, which is notably closer to the main population points in North-West Wales, or to Hawarden, which is far more convenient for a much larger Welsh hinterland, including the largest town in North Wales, namely Wrexham.
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Is there any justification why this route operates to such a peripheral North Wales point as Valley
'Nuff said.
By the way, if you want a real laugh/cry (delete depending on whether you pay tax in the UK), the WAG's own audit report on the first year of operation of the service makes for salutary reading....
In the first year of operation, a subsidy of £800,000 was paid to the then operator. Additionally, a further £390,000 had to be paid to Anglesey Airport. So now we have £1.2m in planned public expenditure for the first year.
In fact, the airport needed some £1.5m for development work, and an ongoing £400k pa in revenue support. So a first year total of £1.19m has morphed into a first year total of £2.7m – an overrun of 127%. (It is fair to ascribe the airport costs to this route since no-one else goes there).
Against that, the WAG's own report notes that the route generated 1,879 new trips (so about 940 returns), of which just 23.81% were for business use (the rest were VFR, other leisure, shopping, public sector). So, for £2.7m pounds, Wales got 224 business return trips. Call it £12,055 a trip.
Counting ALL the new passengers (that is, passengers who traveled because of the airlink, and who would not have taken the train or driven) who took the route in the first year, the subsidy amounts to £1,436.92 PER HEAD ONE WAY.
TA, Cynic, and becoming increasingly so in the light of the facts.
Last edited by TwinAisle; 6th Dec 2010 at 05:26.
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I dont think it was the weather at cwl that caused the delay. The aircraft diverted to Kittila en route to Enontekio and was showing a delay to the return.
All of a sudden late last night it showed a delay until 14.30 which probably means crew had gone out of hours due to the delays incurred.
Fog wasn't expected to effect CWL until 0600
All of a sudden late last night it showed a delay until 14.30 which probably means crew had gone out of hours due to the delays incurred.
Fog wasn't expected to effect CWL until 0600
