Airlines, Airports & Routes Topics about airports, routes and airline business.

CARDIFF

Old 21st Dec 2010, 17:51
  #2481 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Rhoose
Age: 42
Posts: 1
Collapse Of Cardiff Airport

I know this is a very negative post but this is the end of a disappointing year at Cardiff International. With BMIBaby reducing to one based a/c over the summer, Thomas Cook reducing their passenger capacity by bringing in the A320 and Air Lingus Regional reducing their involvement at Cardiff I just really want to ask what is ever going to happen at CWL

We all realise that the aviation industry is in a bad state but others are succeeding where we are not, and who is to blame? For me all fingers point at the management team, there is no ambition, no drive and no exciting and radical ideas for the future, without this there is NO CHANCE of the airport having any success in the future.

For an airport of Cardiff's size (I am not talking about the runway - Like everyone else is obsessed with!) the site is wasted, 747's blocking up useful space on the taxiway, a scrap heap south side with several aircraft that have not moved for years and a terminal building that is dated, run down and unwelcoming.

I think that if the airport is going to get anywhere in the next year serious money needs to be invested, and that will require someone who is bold and brave and able to steer our very troubled welsh ship through some difficult times. I am not just talking about new operators and routes, because that is worth nothing in the long run if the infrastructure is not able to support it. The management need to consider the airport from a passenger’s point of view, from the time of booking till getting in the sky. Where is the airport getting advertised? Catering at the airport - it is shocking, a part-time Burger King and an over-priced breakfast bar that isn’t even good! All the wasted space before security, including the upstairs area reserved for 'Conference Rooms', An appalling security department where I have never seen more than one detector open creating long queues preventing people from spending the well needed cash that the airport needs airside, can I suggest that the management team look at security at any other airport to see how to make an improvement (I suggest you look at how BRS do it/maybe have a priority lane - could be used for extra cash!) When airside there should be more areas to get food, look at how things are run airside at other airports, I know it is essentially a holding pen for waiting passengers but why should it look and feel like that!

Moving onto airlines and routes - What are the airport doing to get new operators into the airport and for existing airlines to set up new routes? Are there any incentives for the airlines to operate out of us? It is the airports responsibility as well as the airlines to promote new routes and encourage passengers to fill the seats on the aircraft

The airport need to forget about small based cargo operators, this will not create any money, if they want to get involved in cargo the airport need to get a large operator into the airport, give them some land, reduce the fees and make it worth coming to CWL. Then once there is a cargo operator established the road and rail links may start to improve. Small operator = Not worth it. Big operator = Potential for something exciting to happen!

Time to get rid of Baby! I think it is, they may not be preventing other airlines from coming to Cardiff but they might be putting them off, if they can’t make it work why will other airlines take the risk to try and make it work. The Jet2 and FlyBe rumours are great BUT they are only rumours! Has anyone actually heard or seen any Jet2/FlyBe management - NO! BMIBaby have had their chance and are now just messing around, they want to move on and that is what CWL should do. If Baby look like they are failing why would a successful airline like FlyBe want to take over!

I think that is my mini CWL outrage over with

Merry Christmas everyone! I hope that for everyone at Cardiff Airport 2011 is a more successful year!
Cardiff Spotter is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2010, 23:47
  #2482 (permalink)  
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Global Nomad
Age: 52
Posts: 1,030
Cardiff Spotter - I think anyone connected with the airport, no matter how obliquely, would sympathise with your sentiments. But as I and others have tried to point out, both your analysis and solutions are flawed.

No operator really cares how the airport looks, how shiny the taps in the gents' loos are, how much the breakfast costs, or how run down Burger King is. The costs of the taxis to town, the frequency of the trains, the state of the road, all frankly off the radar. All we care about is REVENUE. That comes from a market.

Cardiff's problem right now is, very simply, operators cannot see a market. Why would any potential new operator invest a lot of money in starting a route, or a base even, when what they see is the likes of baby struggling in comparison with their other bases? The message of the BHD move to me is clear - baby regard Belfast as a better bet than Cardiff, so that is where the resources are going.

As for subsidies, regular readers will know who I am, and my antipathy to state funding of airlines is on record; in any case, at Cardiff it would be highly legally questionnable to say the least, and there is no cash - that pot has been bled dry by IeuanAir. Also, by dint of my background I can speak of Cardiff's costs with a little authority. For the record, there is nothing I have seen in Cardiff's costs that would discourage an operator, they are certainly not excessive. Sure, airlines would like lower, that's obvious, but it is not a barrier to entry.

Kick out baby? Not my decision. Baby may leave under their own steam, but no-one will 'kick them out', that is just not going to happen. They are not in anybody's way. Does anyone really think that if they were so inclined, Jet2, easyJet, or Ryanair couldn't wipe them out of Cardiff in a month or two?? Of course they could. But they don't, and the reason behind why they don't to me, as an airline guy, is obvious - they just don't see the point of so doing, since the prize is not worth the fight.

THAT is the question that airport supporters and managers must face - how to prove that a catchment exists at Cardiff who will pay high enough fares to make it worth an operator coming in and starting services. It's the tough one - it may be far more entertaining to speculate about the road, or the lounge, or the rail link, or the merits of ATC and ground handling companies, or the future of the management team, or the internal machinations of bmibaby, but trust me, none of that adds up to a bucket of spit if the market isn't proven.

Save Danny's bandwidth, and focus on the real question, perhaps?

TA
TwinAisle is offline  
Old 22nd Dec 2010, 00:01
  #2483 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: lost my way
Age: 40
Posts: 9
THAT is the question that airport supporters and managers must face - how to prove that a catchment exists at Cardiff who will pay high enough fares to make it worth an operator coming in and starting services. It's the tough one - it may be far more entertaining to speculate about the road, or the lounge, or the rail link, or the merits of ATC and ground handling companies, or the future of the management team, or the internal machinations of bmibaby, but trust me, none of that adds up to a bucket of spit if the market isn't proven.

Save Danny's bandwidth, and focus on the real question, perhaps?
Correct. However, I think that the true answers to the big questions are a bit of an inconvinient truth for CWL.
Zelo is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2010, 11:06
  #2484 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 4
Cardiff Airport staff seize passenger's frozen turkey

I see Cardiff Airport is bragging about how they ruined someone's Xmas dinner: BBC News - Cardiff Airport staff seize passenger's frozen turkey.

I am very surprised they seized this item because there is nothing on their website or on the CAA about taking perishable foodstuffs. At big airports like Heathrow lots of perishables like salmon are sold for transport. At Canadian airports in the est of the country there is a huge industry in selling live lobsters etc t take home for a Maritime feast.

I'd be interested in the opinion of experts on this forum, because it seem to me that CWL is just continuing its relentless efforts to destroy the image and business potential of the airport.
situatedness is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2010, 08:07
  #2485 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: South West
Age: 31
Posts: 197
BMI Baby - Summer 2011

The schedule has been amended and CWL is now definitely down to 1 based aircraft in the week and 2 based aircraft for part of the weekend. The 2nd based unit at CWL will leave to go to be based at BHD to operate a new 3 x daily STN and a 1 x daily CWL. It will come back on weekends however; arriving on Saturday morning from BHD and staying until Sunday afternoon when it returns to BHD. While it is based it will operate 3 routes.

This is the schedule below for the height of the summer (August).

Mon - PMI, MJV, FAO
Tues - PMI, AGP, FAO
Wed - AGP, ALC, PMI
Thurs - AGP, PMI, FAO
Fri - PMI, AGP, MAH
Sat - AGP, ALC, IBZ (FAO & PMI also operated by BHD based aircraft which arrives at 10:55 from BHD)
Sun - MAH, PMI, ALC (AGP also operated by BHD based aircraft which nightstops from Saturday and operates the AGP before operating back to BHD at 15:25).

BFS - route stops in Dec - replaced by BHD
JER - route stops in March
EDI - route stops in March
GVA - route stops in April (probably seasonal)
MUC - route stops in Dec

No. of flights per week:
PMI x 7 (1 x daily)
AGP x 5
FAO x 4
ALC x 3
MAH x 2
MJV x 2
IBZ x 1
BHD x 7 (5 daily, 1 x inbound - Sat, 1 x outbound - Sun) - all operated by BHD aircraft

The schedule still needs a tiny bit of tweaking on some days as there are a couple of flights that overlap by 10 minutes, but nothing that needs any extra aircraft or space for more routes.
Severn is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2011, 20:33
  #2486 (permalink)  

Mach 3
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Stratosphere
Posts: 622
I have some sympathy for TwinAisle's commentary but if the number of airframes based at CWL in the past is anything to go by (I haven't checked the CAA numbers), previous years demonstrate a catchment area exists that will generate more traffic than in recent years.

In practise, you only have to look at the car park to get a feel for things.

The question is, is the level of traffic reducing because of something CWL airport are doing or something they are not doing?
SR71 is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2011, 20:52
  #2487 (permalink)  

Brunel to Concorde
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Virtute et Industria, et Sumorsaete Ealle
Posts: 2,251
CWL annual passenger numbers

SR71,

Below is the number of passengers handled by CWL each year for the past quarter of a century in millions or part thereof per annum - CAA stats.

1986 0.487

1987 0.632

1988 0.619

1989 0.696

1990 0.593

1991 0.513

1992 0.653

1993 0.764

1994 0.990

1995 1.025

1996 1.001

1997 1.124

1998 1.230

1999 1.303

2000 1.500

2001 1.524

2002 1.416

2003 1.900

2004 1.873

2005 1.765

2006 1.993

2007 2.094

2008 1.979

2009 1.625

2010 1.400 (estimated)

The last three years have seen annual passenger numbers fall by a third.

The big spurt in 2003 was following the first year of bmibaby's operations.
MerchantVenturer is online now  
Old 3rd Jan 2011, 05:22
  #2488 (permalink)  
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Global Nomad
Age: 52
Posts: 1,030
The question is, is the level of traffic reducing because of something CWL airport are doing or something they are not doing?
Now there is a good question. There is a third option of course - 'or is it reducing due to factors outside the control of anyone at the airport'. But first, let me add a few more thoughts....

The market was most certainly there a few years back. SR71's airframe observation, backed up by MV's numbers, shows this was true. So the question then moves to "where has that market gone".

It's fair to say that a large number of passengers that should normally use Cardiff (and who probably did in the past) are now using Bristol, Birmingham or somewhere else. Or, they have just stopped traveling, which seems very unlikely given global trends, and the rapid growth of Bristol. Passenger behaviour has now changed, and people are used to using Bristol, or Birmingham, and changing it back is going to be a long, hard slog, unless one of the major operators at Bristol decides to move to Cardiff. And I for one just cannot see that happening.

Airlines tend to flock around airports that have proven catchment. That reduces risk. It's rather akin to the shopping centre argument - you can bet John Lewis wouldn't have come to Cardiff unless they could see lots of shoppers coming and going to the other shops, who were reporting good numbers. (CF, Emirates at this point, another reason I am prepared to bet you won't see them in Cardiff, but I digress). What airlines are currently seeing is not a growing airport, but a contracting one - the market doesn't appear to be there, and even the larger players (like Baby) are looking long and hard and taking aircraft elsewhere - to airports that seem to have a stronger market.

It is going to take a serious leap of faith on behalf of a carrier to start up in Cardiff right now. The economy is off into the toilet (in terms of disposable income for passengers as VAT and tax rises start to bite) which is going to pressurise yields for months, if not years, to come.

It is largely up to the airport to show that the market is there. I would bet Cardiff City Council did this for John Lewis! However, I would suggest that Zelo has a good point. What if this is a Michelson–Morley scenario, and the reason that no-one can prove the market is that it is, no longer, there?

Gulp.

TA
TwinAisle is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2011, 06:26
  #2489 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 427
As a remote observer of Cardiff's fortunes over the years it is interesting to read the views of those closer to the scene. I seem to recall that the runway length has been avaialble since the 70's and the terminal is of similar vintage. Was it not years ahead of Bristol in providing these facilities and therefore why didn't the traffic gravitate to Cardeiff? Is the poor surface access a significant barrier? Are the people of Wales not air/travel minded? Has the economy failed to recover from the turmoils of the 80's? Are the dated terminal/poor terminal facilities unattractive to passengers (if not the airlines)? Is it easier for operators to make a killing elsewhere? Is it a combination of these factors or are there just too many airports for this small island?
(Lots of questions but no answers!)
Helen
Helen49 is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2011, 06:42
  #2490 (permalink)  
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Global Nomad
Age: 52
Posts: 1,030
Hi Helen - my two penn'eth....

Was it not years ahead of Bristol in providing these facilities and therefore why didn't the traffic gravitate to Cardeiff?
Yes, from a technical point of view, Cardiff has been a better bet than Bristol for a long time. But airlines don't care about that. So long as the airfield can handle what they want to operate there, that's fine. Everything over and above that is pretty pointless.

Is the poor surface access a significant barrier?
I don't think so. Consider the access to any number of other UK airports, that have done better than Cardiff. Bristol's is dreadful, doesn't seem to have stopped them growing.

Are the people of Wales not air/travel minded?
There is a statistic known as the 'propensity to fly' (PTF). It rates how likely a given population is to fly in a given period. South Wales does indeed have a low PTF - BUT it is a slightly warped statistic, since PTF is linked to opportunity to fly. What that means is that if I live ten minutes from Stansted, I am more likely to take off to say Berlin for the weekend than if I live in Llanelli.... and the number of people from Wales who use BHX or BRS tends to show that people will fly.

Has the economy failed to recover from the turmoils of the 80's?
Wales' problem here is the dependency on the state to provide jobs and services. Doesn't help, but being honest, doesn't seem to have held BFS and BHD back....

Are the dated terminal/poor terminal facilities unattractive to passengers (if not the airlines)?
Airlines don't care. Trust me. If the airlines were there, the passengers will rock up, and the airport will have revenue to improve things. And Cardiff is not that bad. Think of Bristol - crowded, built on the side of a hill, no jetways.... and yet....

Is it easier for operators to make a killing elsewhere?
Certainly, operators seem to think that they can make a killing elsewhere. Why has Baby shifted an aircraft to Northern Ireland? Because it looks like there are richer pickings there.

Is it a combination of these factors or are there just too many airports for this small island?
Too many airports? I don't think so, many are operating close to maximum capacity. This is why Heathrow falls apart quickly when things get tough - there is simply no slack in the system. It may be that the airports are in the wrong place of course...

TA
TwinAisle is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2011, 10:09
  #2491 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Earth
Posts: 947
I wish EZY would open a base in CWL. I get people involved with CWL who tell me all the time that EZY will put 3 airframes into CWL, they argue with me, debate, tell me they are certain and have been told a base will open. I can tell you for fact that it will never ever happen.
Stone Cold II is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2011, 10:31
  #2492 (permalink)  

Mach 3
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Stratosphere
Posts: 622
Now there is a good question. There is a third option of course - 'or is it reducing due to factors outside the control of anyone at the airport'. But first, let me add a few more thoughts....
I intended this question to be covered by my original statement, because, lets face it, the underlying assumption is that the airport themselves, know what the market is doing!

My gut feeling - and it is nothing more than gut - is that, in actual fact, the number of people crossing the bridge to fly out of Bristol to various destinations is not large enough to support the same services out of Cardiff. They are crossing the bridge precisely because Nice, Rome, Milan are destinations that will never "work" out of Cardiff.

The market here in Wales is reasonably well defined because the catchment area is reasonably well defined and almost impossible to increase. Its Eastern edge extends no further than the bridge and Chepstow, its Northern edge 10 miles North of the M4, its Western Edge Swansea, and Southern edge, well.....

Bristol on the other hand has a monstrous catchment area stretching all the way to Cornwall in one direction and half way to Gatwick and Birmingham in the other.

There just isn't the money in Wales during this intense period of economic uncertainty to generate large amounts of traffic out of Cardiff, especially when in addition to the tiny catchment area, the demand is for a limited range of Southern Spanish destinations at £9.99 a ticket.

Its the same reason there isn't a Cribbs Causeway or Cabot Circus in Cardiff. Instead, we have a Bridgend Outlet Mall.

Unfortunately I think 2011-2012 is going to be even tougher.
SR71 is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2011, 10:58
  #2493 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 610
Not Just Cardiff Suffering

Guys, don't be too hard on yourselves. It's not so much Cardiff in particular but a lot of the UK is going through this. Just look at what has happened at Durham, Doncaster, Blackpool, Bournemouth, Prestwick. UK domestic travel is falling too which is really harming the regions.

I would say one of biggest contributors is APD which keeps on rising relentlessly. Airlines can't make the thinner margins possible at regional airports worthwhile in comparison to the bigger cities and mainland european opportunities. It means british people are flying less but that wealthier foreigners are flying in from abroad to London and other select key gateways. Until the government actually realizes the airline industry is not evil (by reducing APD, encouraging regional airline travel) we will see a real difficulty in recovering from this fall off in demand.
Nakata77 is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2011, 11:25
  #2494 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: davenport IA
Age: 66
Posts: 391
was driving eastbound on the m4 not long before christmas, and the matrix signs were lit up , how many miles to bristol airport and what road to take. dont know what the reason for this. never seen it before or since. if any one has any ideas why they were lit up with this, i would be intereasted to know
yeo valley is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2011, 13:43
  #2495 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: London, Los Angeles and Las Vegas
Posts: 171
was driving eastbound on the m4 not long before christmas, and the matrix signs were lit up , how many miles to bristol airport and what road to take. dont know what the reason for this. never seen it before or since. if any one has any ideas why they were lit up with this, i would be intereasted to know
I'm guessing to tell people travelling to Bristol Airport how to get there and what road to take?
Random Flyer is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2011, 12:16
  #2496 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Crawley
Posts: 346
New Website for CWL

Has anyone else seen the 'new' website for CWL yet?

I'm hoping its a work in progress.

At the moment it doesn't look very professional
bycrewlgw is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2011, 12:21
  #2497 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,348
Thats as good as it gets. It's the same for BFS, LTN and NYO.
Jamie2k9 is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2011, 17:23
  #2498 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 22
Cwl New Website

Not impressed. Ridiculous there is no direct link to flight information pages from the home page. Once you have navigated your way there, it is hardly worth it as only a handful of flights are showing at any one time. All the day's future flying should be available and past flying should be available for longer. BRS website, as everything else, is far better.
Rachman is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2011, 17:35
  #2499 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: South Wales
Posts: 1,253
In fairness Cardiff airport live flight information hasn't kept displaying departures/arrivals for a long period of time after they have landed/taken-off for a while.

You can see most of the sheduled flights i think up to 6-12 hours by clicking the white arrow on the right hand side of the live flight screen.

There did seem a bug however that effected the screen yesterday when the WW2333 picked up a delay. Flight was showing in yellow and delayed up until today even though the flight had departed.

I have managed to get the live flight information on the home page so must be a part of the customise content option.
mathers_wales_uk is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2011, 18:12
  #2500 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 22
Cardiff's varying fortunes

Everyone who contributes to this CWL thread is rightly concerned for the airport's future.

Many ideas for its salvation are mooted and many reasons for its perceived demise, some well informed and others less so, are thrown up. All points of view are valid and contribute admirably to the discussion.

I think it is important not to lose sight of our 'raison d'etre'.

It is not about being the biggest or the best; it is not about rivalry with BRS or BHX.

It is about providing air services for our market-place; for our catchment area.

It is about doing what we do with the limited available resources well.

Yes, it would be good to host a new scheduled airline. Realistically, the only contender for that in the UK is FlyBe who are the only airline able to provide the right equipment for CWL's market scenario; the EMB175 and the Dash Q400. Passengers could expect to pay a little more for their services, but I believe that public disenchantment with the low-cost con would mean this might not be such a problem.

Whether FlyBe take up the challenge or not remains to be seen.

Of great interest will be the Helvetic ZRH service. ZRH is currently the 12th most popular European destination available with the KLM connection from CWL. With ZRH's potential mix of business, cultural and leisure traffic, and its perfect on-site transport infrastructure which can whisk you from the airport to any Swiss destination or neighbouring country with great efficiency, this will be one to watch and perhaps an indicator of how the other 11 more popular KLM European destinations might perform were they individually served.

Personally, I think this service is the most exciting thing to happen to CWL for a long while and the CWL management are to be applauded for their part in bringing Helvetic here.

Let us not be too downcast; there is much potential for the future.

I just hope the lo-co-con is not part of it.
Rachman is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.


All times are GMT. The time now is 18:13.


Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.