LUTON - 6
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Every international airport in the UK, other than LooTown, adopts a far superior, proactive approach to snow clearance. This is because they actually start clearing snow, whilst fresh snow is falling. Thus preventing the underlying snow turning to ice and taking significantly more time to clear.
Of the UK airports I have personal experience of opening through in mid winter, Heathrow, Manchester, Stansted, Glasgow and Gatwick all manage significantly better when heavy snow is falling. .
Of the UK airports I have personal experience of opening through in mid winter, Heathrow, Manchester, Stansted, Glasgow and Gatwick all manage significantly better when heavy snow is falling. .
Snow: Heathrow paralysed, runways closed. By Stephen Adams 7:30AM GMT 03 Feb 2009
Heathrow airport was paralysed as less than four inches of snow forced the closure of both runways.
More than half of Monday's planned 1,350 flights were cancelled, including 361 arrivals and 430 departures, according to airport operator BAA.
Short haul flights were cancelled first to make way for long haul arrivals.
All British Airways flights were cancelled until 5pm, passengers were told in the morning.
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Stansted shamed as service collapses under two inches of snow
The British Airports Authority (BAA) has said that it was "satisfied" with the time it took to reopen Stansted airport after two inches of snow caused operations to grind to a halt for almost 18 hours - far longer than is common at continental and North American airports.
The Essex airport, one of Britain's principal transport hubs, was closed from 6.30pm on Thursday until midday on Friday, forcing the cancellation of more than 300 flights. At Heathrow 225 flights were cancelled and at Gatwick many more. Yet in 33 years Alaska's remote Anchorage airport has never closed because of snow.
Staff at Anchorage are often confronted by 20in of overnight snow, but their crews can clear the two-mile runway in less than 30 minutes. At Stansted it took 12 hours to clear the airport's only runway and a further six hours to clear the surrounding areas. Flights were still being cancelled or rescheduled late on Saturday.
Last edited by LTNman; 26th Nov 2010 at 04:20.
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To reassure you all, on yesterdays BBC Look East when they were reporting on the forthcoming cold snap and possible snow, they mentioned they had spoken to the regions airports (Norwich, Stansted and Luton) and they were all prepared for any possible snow and would all be able to minimalise any disruption!
So everyone please stop panicking and being so cynical!
So everyone please stop panicking and being so cynical!
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Does anyone have actual information if there were any development in terms of equipment and procedures?
Last 2 years were clearly a failure and IMHO british people should get used to this kind of weather. You can live with it quite easily, you only need to go buy a couple of ploughs and winter tyre instead of the neverending arguments if it's economical or not... Snow is coming, you hit the wall if you're not prepared, that simple.
SkyNews was funny last winter when the reporter guy was talking about "horrible" weather standing outside in 1 cm of snow.
Last 2 years were clearly a failure and IMHO british people should get used to this kind of weather. You can live with it quite easily, you only need to go buy a couple of ploughs and winter tyre instead of the neverending arguments if it's economical or not... Snow is coming, you hit the wall if you're not prepared, that simple.
SkyNews was funny last winter when the reporter guy was talking about "horrible" weather standing outside in 1 cm of snow.
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Well you have hit the nail on the head. We all know winter is coming so how many people on this thread have swapped their car tyres to winter tyres for those few days of ice and snow? Answer no one.
Just how good are winter tyres? - Tester?s notes
So people like SASKATOON9999 are saying that Luton isn’t prepared for winter and won't spend the money but then isn’t that like calling the kettle black?
Just how good are winter tyres? - Tester?s notes
So people like SASKATOON9999 are saying that Luton isn’t prepared for winter and won't spend the money but then isn’t that like calling the kettle black?
Last edited by LTNman; 26th Nov 2010 at 04:27.
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I vivadly remember sitting with LTN Airport Management after a particular fiasco in early 2009 and the inertia displayed was absolutely astonishing. I fully appreciate the levels of investment required for something that 'might' happen, fairly topical at the moment I would suspect?, but there was no direction or ownership, which I suspect is why LTN performs so badly.
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I guarantee without hesitation that LTN will again be face significant disruption due to lack of winter preparation
Luton does de-ice the runway before snow falls and it does start removing snow before it stops but as has already been shown in an earlier post that airports like Heathrow and Stansted also comes to a halt when it snows.
There might well be an argument that Luton needs to spend more money on new equipment so it reopens earlier but then the same argument could be said for most UK airports.
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I've got Winter tyres !!!
And a cd player with Alan Whicker's "journey of a lifetime" audiobook on it. Makes me dream of when aviation wasn't a sh1t industry.
Aaaah, dream dream dream.
And a cd player with Alan Whicker's "journey of a lifetime" audiobook on it. Makes me dream of when aviation wasn't a sh1t industry.
Aaaah, dream dream dream.
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Well you have hit the nail on the head. We all know winter is coming so how many people on this thread have swapped their car tyres to winter tyres for those few days of ice and snow? Answer no one.
Last edited by TBSC; 26th Nov 2010 at 19:36.
Budapest gets on average 45 days of snow per year.
London gets on average about 14 days of snow per year
A single snowflake hitting the ground means the day gets included, but most days will be rather heavier than a single snowflake
Snowclearing kit costs money. If airports spend money to buy more equipment, it ends up being passed onto the passenger as higher airport charges.
Hands up all those people in London paying for a leisure flight from their own pocket who like the idea of higher charges...
London gets on average about 14 days of snow per year
A single snowflake hitting the ground means the day gets included, but most days will be rather heavier than a single snowflake
Snowclearing kit costs money. If airports spend money to buy more equipment, it ends up being passed onto the passenger as higher airport charges.
Hands up all those people in London paying for a leisure flight from their own pocket who like the idea of higher charges...
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London gets on average about 14 days of snow per year
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I bet your airports don't close for a whole day like ours.
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Who is available to clear the snow?
My guess in this day and age is mainly the fire service and ops folk like marshallers and bird scarer's.
So picture this, the fire service clear the runway and taxiways, go back to the station to maintain fire cover for movements. As there is no one else to clear the snow during runway operations, the runway and taxiways then have to close to clear the snow that has since fallen.
Airports have contracted staff out. In my time the baggage handlers were involved airside clearing, but they are no longer employed by the airport.
Heathrow is much easier to keep open. Effectively two airports as there are two runways, so you clear one runways, open it whilst you clear the other and more folk employed by the BAA to initiate and maintain snow clearance.
Add to equation that Luton is 300ft higher above sea level, so moisture falling as rain may fall as snow up on the hill at Luton.
Anyone remember December 1981, now that was snow!
Instead of knocking the airport in relation to snow clearing, think of the issues that they have to overcome operationally. Some of the old fashioned chemicals that were so effective are now outlawed.
Added to this is the problems during snow of key staff getting into work to clear the snow.
My guess in this day and age is mainly the fire service and ops folk like marshallers and bird scarer's.
So picture this, the fire service clear the runway and taxiways, go back to the station to maintain fire cover for movements. As there is no one else to clear the snow during runway operations, the runway and taxiways then have to close to clear the snow that has since fallen.
Airports have contracted staff out. In my time the baggage handlers were involved airside clearing, but they are no longer employed by the airport.
Heathrow is much easier to keep open. Effectively two airports as there are two runways, so you clear one runways, open it whilst you clear the other and more folk employed by the BAA to initiate and maintain snow clearance.
Add to equation that Luton is 300ft higher above sea level, so moisture falling as rain may fall as snow up on the hill at Luton.
Anyone remember December 1981, now that was snow!
Instead of knocking the airport in relation to snow clearing, think of the issues that they have to overcome operationally. Some of the old fashioned chemicals that were so effective are now outlawed.
Added to this is the problems during snow of key staff getting into work to clear the snow.
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Well it isn't much of a case if you are saying that only Luton will be closed for hours when it snows?
I think you need to read post 3086 again and absorb the articles.
What can and does happen is that only Luton can be affected by snow when airports like Stansted and Heathrow remain open.
Take a look at United Kingdom Weather before the days out for hourly weather reports for the last 24 hours.
Luton 4 hours of continuous light snow
Heathrow no snow
Stansted no snow
Gatwick no snow
London city no snow
I think you need to read post 3086 again and absorb the articles.
What can and does happen is that only Luton can be affected by snow when airports like Stansted and Heathrow remain open.
Take a look at United Kingdom Weather before the days out for hourly weather reports for the last 24 hours.
Luton 4 hours of continuous light snow
Heathrow no snow
Stansted no snow
Gatwick no snow
London city no snow
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What I can say today was that LTN coped quite well ! This morning, some Polish flights were cancelled, but that was as part of the Wizzair Brigade didn't make it over. My GVA went out one hour late, nothing much to complain about. But we had to wait in the air for some 30min as GVA had to clear their runway. Pilot at some point even mentioned possibly landing at BSL (or somewhere else near) for stop-over to fuel-up (fellow passengers didn't like to hear that). I think none of the delays was due to LTN issues with snow, which was admittingly much lighter than at GVA. Arriving into GVA, spotted one of BA's LHR was cancelled (now fellow users of the non-Schengen departure satellite terminal). EZY to LTN returned some 2 hours late.
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@davidjohnson6
There you go.
You could buy a shiny new plough on the cost of the 2 cancelled Wizz flights, the additonal STN-LTN ferry (to avoid a 3rd cancellation) and the fuel burnt by other 4 flights holding over LTN for 40+ minutes today. And it's only autumn with a little snow.
Obviously it's easier for the airport if someone else pays the bill... If airlines are loosing 20 times more money than the cost of snow cleaning equipment and staff every winter that makes your ticket more expensive a bit quicker, don't you think?
Snowclearing kit costs money. If airports spend money to buy more equipment, it ends up being passed onto the passenger as higher airport charges.
Hands up all those people in London paying for a leisure flight from their own pocket who like the idea of higher charges...
Hands up all those people in London paying for a leisure flight from their own pocket who like the idea of higher charges...
You could buy a shiny new plough on the cost of the 2 cancelled Wizz flights, the additonal STN-LTN ferry (to avoid a 3rd cancellation) and the fuel burnt by other 4 flights holding over LTN for 40+ minutes today. And it's only autumn with a little snow.
Obviously it's easier for the airport if someone else pays the bill... If airlines are loosing 20 times more money than the cost of snow cleaning equipment and staff every winter that makes your ticket more expensive a bit quicker, don't you think?