BIRMINGHAM - 4
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The Manchester Airport Eastern Link Road is not just aimed at satisfying airport traffic. It has been on the drawing board for decades as a way of alleviating commuter traffic between the south of Stockport, Wilmslow etc. and getting traffic onto the motorway network near to MAN rather than at the various town junctions. It was half-completed about 15 years ago, then was shelved.
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If you re-read the article it actually says nothing. It's a case of the paper looking to find some news. It opens with the line 'A row is Brewing' I don't think that the rest of the story validates that.
As for the case for a runway extension, of course it's valid and justified. The big problem BIA has had for the last 30 years is that they waited until someone said they needed this or that or they ran out of room, then they went about building it. Leaving themselves some years behind.
Charter companies have already capitulated to LOCO's for the traditional bucket and spade brigade. They are moving more and more to long haul charter and working with the cruise industry much closer.
Lets not forget that the one advantage of the extension will be that by the time it's up for completion the industry will be climbing out of the pit it's in at the moment. We need to be in a position to reap the rewards of that...
As for the case for a runway extension, of course it's valid and justified. The big problem BIA has had for the last 30 years is that they waited until someone said they needed this or that or they ran out of room, then they went about building it. Leaving themselves some years behind.
Charter companies have already capitulated to LOCO's for the traditional bucket and spade brigade. They are moving more and more to long haul charter and working with the cruise industry much closer.
Lets not forget that the one advantage of the extension will be that by the time it's up for completion the industry will be climbing out of the pit it's in at the moment. We need to be in a position to reap the rewards of that...
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runway expansion blocked
The plans to extend the runway could be scraped. They are trying to blame the EU for making it hard for Advantage West Midlands to give them a £25m bung. Free money from AWM is needed to make it happen as the extra income generated from a longer runway will very small for many years.
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FR
Sorry to go off topic but anyone know if the FR offerings from BHX have been finalised for next summer? If so its a paltry selection of routes compared to the other bases opened around the same time (BRS and EDI).....a combination of recession and strained relations with the airport management?? 
As for the runway I agree with Call, BHX has often chased its tail and reacted after the event to play catch up with others (I know its not about infrastructure but the lo-co boom in the early noughties comes to mind....) but I am still not sure about whether the extension will encourage the supposed range of flights that its cost would need to justify it. Having said that I guess airport development looks at the very long term it would be terrible if BHX was caught with its pants down again in the future and those 787s (if they ever come) went from EMA instead off their shiny new runway extension (if indeed that happens
)
As for the runway I agree with Call, BHX has often chased its tail and reacted after the event to play catch up with others (I know its not about infrastructure but the lo-co boom in the early noughties comes to mind....) but I am still not sure about whether the extension will encourage the supposed range of flights that its cost would need to justify it. Having said that I guess airport development looks at the very long term it would be terrible if BHX was caught with its pants down again in the future and those 787s (if they ever come) went from EMA instead off their shiny new runway extension (if indeed that happens
)
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> Sorry to go off topic but anyone know if the FR offerings from BHX
> have been finalised for next summer?
I'm not directly in the loop, but yes, I believe so. FR is behaving interesting
these days, you heard the news they left BSL with 3 weeks notice (6 routes).
Very little expansion also e.g. in Germany. What is sure is that HHN will not come back, it was tried and failed. Likely some deal with BHX or HHN like 'New route - No fees for 6 months'. It started in Oct 08. NRN is bookable, but flying times are odd enough that it won't be that great a success. The routes to Eastern Europe (e.g. KUN) are also all bookable until October 2010. So yes, I believe that's all. It might even be less then what you see now. Comparison to EDI and BRS is difficult, as BHX has a larger number of airlines, enough for all the basic needs (e.g. FRA instead of HHN). I couldn't come up with a big gap in the market from BHX that hasn't been tried and failed (CGN, WAW etc.). Well, maybe if WW packs-up at BHX, they might add something, but I doubt it, they already compete in the most obvious markets (PRG and such).
> have been finalised for next summer?
I'm not directly in the loop, but yes, I believe so. FR is behaving interesting
these days, you heard the news they left BSL with 3 weeks notice (6 routes).
Very little expansion also e.g. in Germany. What is sure is that HHN will not come back, it was tried and failed. Likely some deal with BHX or HHN like 'New route - No fees for 6 months'. It started in Oct 08. NRN is bookable, but flying times are odd enough that it won't be that great a success. The routes to Eastern Europe (e.g. KUN) are also all bookable until October 2010. So yes, I believe that's all. It might even be less then what you see now. Comparison to EDI and BRS is difficult, as BHX has a larger number of airlines, enough for all the basic needs (e.g. FRA instead of HHN). I couldn't come up with a big gap in the market from BHX that hasn't been tried and failed (CGN, WAW etc.). Well, maybe if WW packs-up at BHX, they might add something, but I doubt it, they already compete in the most obvious markets (PRG and such).
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True enough, BHX does have a larger range of carriers than BRS and EDI (more than EDI only just!). But I think there are plenty of markets that are unserved from BHX and could be, more French and Spanish destinations, Croatia and Morocco for a start. As for the lack of direct city connections, surely FR are the right carrier for CIA; MAD; BUD; VCE cities that are a gaping hole in the BHX network. I dont think that just because routes have been tried before they are doomed to failure although for airlines this is not the time I suppose to be testing that theory out............
Personally I am beginning to question FRs motives at BHX from the outset, I am sure that if they had picked a more sensible bunch of routes to launch the base with they would not be back peddling so much now. It seems fishy that EDI and BRS both boast 30+ routes from FR but BHX is now just 20 or so despite the huge fanfare that accompanied the launch of the base. I can understand expansion at EDI as it has a much bigger inbound tourist market than BHX (although BHX could have a much bigger inbound appeal it just doesnt appear to have the sense to market that to airlines and Travel Agents) but cant make out why some routes that are offered by FR from BRS survive and are not even offered from BHX
Personally I am beginning to question FRs motives at BHX from the outset, I am sure that if they had picked a more sensible bunch of routes to launch the base with they would not be back peddling so much now. It seems fishy that EDI and BRS both boast 30+ routes from FR but BHX is now just 20 or so despite the huge fanfare that accompanied the launch of the base. I can understand expansion at EDI as it has a much bigger inbound tourist market than BHX (although BHX could have a much bigger inbound appeal it just doesnt appear to have the sense to market that to airlines and Travel Agents) but cant make out why some routes that are offered by FR from BRS survive and are not even offered from BHX
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Ryanair summer 2010
GayFriendly
The summer 2010 timetable is far from finalised as there are many aspects to be finalised such as the agreement with LPA/ACE/TFS (due to end late March) and if Shannon will operate with a BHX based aircraft (no longer bookable after 26/3/10) due to the reduction in the SNN base.
No French flights have been released yet and only one Italian and that should change.
I agree that we probably have seen the back of Hahn and Torp but the rest is really down to if your glass is half full or half empty.
Every day requires four based aircraft but some days one has just one
flight to operate which means new routes or cut frequencies.
This happened last year when 5 were scheduled some days but were squashed back into four with TPS & PSA operating from away bases and ALC on two of the seven days it operated.
Rumours persist that all Baby captains showing interest will be interviewed by Ryanair (not FO's), which could mean good news for BHX or at least EMA.
Baby are rumoured to have two based aircraft next summer (three possibly) and I just can't see FR sitting around and not expanding but of course we are talking about FR and who knows what might happen.
Pete
The summer 2010 timetable is far from finalised as there are many aspects to be finalised such as the agreement with LPA/ACE/TFS (due to end late March) and if Shannon will operate with a BHX based aircraft (no longer bookable after 26/3/10) due to the reduction in the SNN base.
No French flights have been released yet and only one Italian and that should change.
I agree that we probably have seen the back of Hahn and Torp but the rest is really down to if your glass is half full or half empty.
Every day requires four based aircraft but some days one has just one
flight to operate which means new routes or cut frequencies.
This happened last year when 5 were scheduled some days but were squashed back into four with TPS & PSA operating from away bases and ALC on two of the seven days it operated.
Rumours persist that all Baby captains showing interest will be interviewed by Ryanair (not FO's), which could mean good news for BHX or at least EMA.
Baby are rumoured to have two based aircraft next summer (three possibly) and I just can't see FR sitting around and not expanding but of course we are talking about FR and who knows what might happen.
Pete
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runway extension plans in doubt
It seems the airport boss is owning up to the problems of funding an extension.
Birmingham Post - News - West Midlands News - Birmingham International Airport runway extension plans in doubt
Paul Kehoe admitted money is not in place to start work, the business case is “marginal at best”, and there are doubts about the scheme’s financial viability.
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Oh Well
Its nice to see some ecomomic Darwinism in action - The Midlands does not need two 3000 Metre runways. I have said this before; Has there been a sustained decade on decade increase; in business traffic from the West Mids to anywhere other than Dublin or Dubai - Has Paris,Frankfurt, Copenhagen, Amsterdam or Milan or Rome traffic; (both business or leasure related ) increased ?. As you could expect from a region growing in ecomomic importance - I don't know, but I suspect not - When it comes to "Bucket and Spade" traffic and I do not mean this in a desparaging way; do pax really mind 45 mins trip up/down the M42, down the M40 or M6. - I helped finance the place through the rates I paid, when living in Brum.
What really irks me is is the realisation that in the whole of the RWY Ext "Kite flying excercise", the authorities proceeded with a plan without concurrent review and action in financing the project. The Managers comments in the article; strike me as someone looking for an "Out" - The owners had 40 years or so to develop the facility and for a variety of reasons did not.
How about a plan to use the exsisting facilities to clear the costs of financing the exsisting terminal(s) and their demolition only, and then closure over the next 15/20 years or so. The West Midlands needs land for housing and there are good and expandable travel infrstructure facilities at EMA.
The ecomomic race in the long run goes to those with better IQ and vision and imagination. One Midlands airport , one 3000 M runway, one nill to EMA in economic terms.
Added later:
Even Manchester, which as an airport; has had this form of investment (two Parallel 3000 Metre Runways) has not really developed in ways that; we the public would have imagined in the 1980's, in terms of long haul scheduled services. Remember it serves a huge catchment area too.
Re 787: When will it see service: It could come out just that bit too heavy or shorter in range to make US West coast LH economiclly feasable from the likes of BHX or Luton or LBA.
CAT III
What really irks me is is the realisation that in the whole of the RWY Ext "Kite flying excercise", the authorities proceeded with a plan without concurrent review and action in financing the project. The Managers comments in the article; strike me as someone looking for an "Out" - The owners had 40 years or so to develop the facility and for a variety of reasons did not.
How about a plan to use the exsisting facilities to clear the costs of financing the exsisting terminal(s) and their demolition only, and then closure over the next 15/20 years or so. The West Midlands needs land for housing and there are good and expandable travel infrstructure facilities at EMA.
The ecomomic race in the long run goes to those with better IQ and vision and imagination. One Midlands airport , one 3000 M runway, one nill to EMA in economic terms.
Added later:
Even Manchester, which as an airport; has had this form of investment (two Parallel 3000 Metre Runways) has not really developed in ways that; we the public would have imagined in the 1980's, in terms of long haul scheduled services. Remember it serves a huge catchment area too.
Re 787: When will it see service: It could come out just that bit too heavy or shorter in range to make US West coast LH economiclly feasable from the likes of BHX or Luton or LBA.
CAT III
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Sadly Manchester is now back to traffic levels of almost 10 years ago. AND its not all down to the current economic crisis ! When RW2 was planned the airport was going from strength to strength in terms of attracting what were "independent" operators. There also appeared to be finite restrictions in terms of capacity in the South East. The traffic had to go somwehere and Manchester was the next logical gateway.
At this time 25% of demand which originated within 1 hour of Manchester was funneled into the South east airports system, on this basis a business case was made to progress BUT look where we are now.
The airport appears to be saddled with millions of pounds worth of debt which will take years to pay back given that fact that it is going backwards in terms of attracting traffic, not forwards.
I also read somewhere that BAA reduced LGW landing charges to a figure 25% below Heathrow in order to try and attract traffic.... such is the demand for Heathrow and Heathrow only that even this offer was not taken up by one airline.
With consolidation and alliances it makes more business sense for airlines to use fewer and fewer hubs.
We also now have the A380 in the mix....SIA operated daily from Manchester with full loads and threatened to increase to 10 a week before the downturn. Lo and behold they introduced the 380 into LHR against this backdrop and at the same time slashed the Man flights..!
If Manchester cannot make a go of it with "its" investment I would suggest Birmingham has no chance.
Careful for what you wish for .......!
At this time 25% of demand which originated within 1 hour of Manchester was funneled into the South east airports system, on this basis a business case was made to progress BUT look where we are now.
The airport appears to be saddled with millions of pounds worth of debt which will take years to pay back given that fact that it is going backwards in terms of attracting traffic, not forwards.
I also read somewhere that BAA reduced LGW landing charges to a figure 25% below Heathrow in order to try and attract traffic.... such is the demand for Heathrow and Heathrow only that even this offer was not taken up by one airline.
With consolidation and alliances it makes more business sense for airlines to use fewer and fewer hubs.
We also now have the A380 in the mix....SIA operated daily from Manchester with full loads and threatened to increase to 10 a week before the downturn. Lo and behold they introduced the 380 into LHR against this backdrop and at the same time slashed the Man flights..!
If Manchester cannot make a go of it with "its" investment I would suggest Birmingham has no chance.
Careful for what you wish for .......!
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Iceland Express @ BHX June 2010
Not seen this reported but apologies if it has, Iceland Express to start 1x weekly to Keflavik. AEU533 arr 19:10 SUN dep AEU534 20:00. Commences from 6th June 2010
Andrew
Andrew
Last edited by andy mach 1; 14th Nov 2009 at 17:08. Reason: Changing destination error
Runway Extension
CATIII-NDB:
I really cannot go along with your rationale that the midlands needs only one 3000 metre runway. On the other side of the channel, where they understand the importance of building infrastructure numerous regional airports enjoy 3000 metre runways. Also, given the demographics, if there were to be only one 3000 metre runway in the midlands it should be in at Birmingham, where there are several large conurbations, and a multitude of international businesses, not to mention world class exhibition and conference centres.
Compare that with the East Midlands, my home patch, where the airport sits betwixt and between three smaller cities, with smaller local catchments areas and less demand for inward business travel. It's no contest.
That said, Bagso makes some very valid points. Look at the airports, outside London, where there has been investment in longer or addition runway capacity added. Cardiff - hardly ever used except for diversions and BA aircraft positioning to their maintenance facility; Manchester as stated above; East Midlands - built mainly to fulfill the airport's niche as a cargo hub - hardly required for the PAX network. I doubt any of these projects have reached pay back point yet - although I suspect creative accountancy could make them appear to have.
Size (or in this case length) isn't everything! So far as I can see there probably isn't a short to medium terms investment case for the longer runway at BHX since the UK is so "London-centric". There would need to be a lot of long haul daily operations in additional to Emirates, Continental and PIA to make the economic case for the BHX runway extension. Despite their's. there is still no daily scheduled direct flight to the US west coast from Manchester, nor any sort of non stop service to Hong Kong, Tokyo, Beijing, Kuala Lumpur or any other of a myriad of long haul routes there ought to be from an area the size of Manchester - so what chance for BHX, just a couple of hours (with following wind, at the dead of night) from LHR?
I hope in my heart that it's gets built - but my head says, do we really need it?
I really cannot go along with your rationale that the midlands needs only one 3000 metre runway. On the other side of the channel, where they understand the importance of building infrastructure numerous regional airports enjoy 3000 metre runways. Also, given the demographics, if there were to be only one 3000 metre runway in the midlands it should be in at Birmingham, where there are several large conurbations, and a multitude of international businesses, not to mention world class exhibition and conference centres.
Compare that with the East Midlands, my home patch, where the airport sits betwixt and between three smaller cities, with smaller local catchments areas and less demand for inward business travel. It's no contest.
That said, Bagso makes some very valid points. Look at the airports, outside London, where there has been investment in longer or addition runway capacity added. Cardiff - hardly ever used except for diversions and BA aircraft positioning to their maintenance facility; Manchester as stated above; East Midlands - built mainly to fulfill the airport's niche as a cargo hub - hardly required for the PAX network. I doubt any of these projects have reached pay back point yet - although I suspect creative accountancy could make them appear to have.
Size (or in this case length) isn't everything! So far as I can see there probably isn't a short to medium terms investment case for the longer runway at BHX since the UK is so "London-centric". There would need to be a lot of long haul daily operations in additional to Emirates, Continental and PIA to make the economic case for the BHX runway extension. Despite their's. there is still no daily scheduled direct flight to the US west coast from Manchester, nor any sort of non stop service to Hong Kong, Tokyo, Beijing, Kuala Lumpur or any other of a myriad of long haul routes there ought to be from an area the size of Manchester - so what chance for BHX, just a couple of hours (with following wind, at the dead of night) from LHR?
I hope in my heart that it's gets built - but my head says, do we really need it?
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Reply to ATNotts
I agree with your final comments re: hope. But I was thinking of the likes of CWL when making the point. I totally agree that the investment (in the extension) might pay back its costs in ways that we cannot yet imagine; over say 30 years or so - A broad term called economic developement: But we live in the land of the "Business case" economic model. Management "speek" for let's make the facts fit our "internal rate of return" figs. Is there a business case for "Getting out of bed on a wet day ?"
Those 3000 Metre runways that you mention; that are being built in Europe, may form the infrastructure of a sophisticated "point to point" network of routes linking Europe to Asia, in the next 40-50 years - But we do not think like that in the UK.
I did not mean to sound so bleak in the origional post, but that's the way things are.
CAT III
:
Those 3000 Metre runways that you mention; that are being built in Europe, may form the infrastructure of a sophisticated "point to point" network of routes linking Europe to Asia, in the next 40-50 years - But we do not think like that in the UK.
I did not mean to sound so bleak in the origional post, but that's the way things are.
CAT III
:
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Some 18 months I heard more than one Director at BHX state (regarding the runway extension) that if it was presented as a business case, you wouldn't do it. The projected payback period was much too long.
And that was back in the days where the legendary projected growth pax figures stated in the airport's reponse to the 2003 White Paper were merely regarded as wildly optimistic!
And that was back in the days where the legendary projected growth pax figures stated in the airport's reponse to the 2003 White Paper were merely regarded as wildly optimistic!
I think a bit more "Frenchness" in our attitude towards infrastructure projects than the anglo-american hard nosed business case model may pay dividends in the UK, where we have a history of building too small, too late and on the cheap - only to find ourselves shelling out a few years later to extend / rebuild projects at far higher cost than were they to have been done properly, and with foresight first time around.
The French a good at this - the UK rather less so.
Hopefully a bit of French logic may be used and the long view taken of the BHX runway extension - but I wouldn't hold out too much hope.
The French a good at this - the UK rather less so.
Hopefully a bit of French logic may be used and the long view taken of the BHX runway extension - but I wouldn't hold out too much hope.
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The latest Printable Scheduled Timetable on bhx.co.uk lists Toronto as a destination again, airline code MT (??) flights on Tues arr BHX 0735 dep 1230 a/c 752 from 26/10. The rest of the timetable contains some big errors so I am assuming this is also an error unless there has been a big announcement about flights resuming to Toronto that I have missed...........also v sad to see so many flights finishing at the end of Oct (mostly FR) its gonna be a quiet winter on the apron some days 
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MT is the 2-letter ICAO designator for Thomas Cook Airlines, a legacy from Flying Colours. These Canadian flights operated last year, and are operated for Canadian Affair and Air Transat, with the 75' configured to just 187 pax. There was also an arrival/departure on a Saturday.
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Timetable
The online schedule timetable the last time I looked was an embarrasment
and I can't believe how they allow it to be shown with so many errors.
The changeover from summer to winter this year was quite remarkable
due to the sheer number of route closures and suspensions. There is
another one today with Ryanair Billund finishing.
On the bright side at least no major route losses although Porto was
disappointing as it had good loads and a decent destination.
I just had a look at November and it only looks like about 5 or 6%
down in respect of pax (my estimate) and I believe October will be
similar when the CAA publish the figures Monday.
Not too much on the horizon other than easyjet GVA & GNB returning
and possibly Uzbek although that has gone quiet.
Pete
and I can't believe how they allow it to be shown with so many errors.
The changeover from summer to winter this year was quite remarkable
due to the sheer number of route closures and suspensions. There is
another one today with Ryanair Billund finishing.
On the bright side at least no major route losses although Porto was
disappointing as it had good loads and a decent destination.
I just had a look at November and it only looks like about 5 or 6%
down in respect of pax (my estimate) and I believe October will be
similar when the CAA publish the figures Monday.
Not too much on the horizon other than easyjet GVA & GNB returning
and possibly Uzbek although that has gone quiet.
Pete
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Just to add, as I toyed with the idea of going to Toronto YYZ a few times over the past years: It was a mixture with Air Transat's own A310/A330 in 2007/08, but this year purely Thomas Cook. Not a pure holiday charter, you can get ticket-only on Air Transat's website, which also interestingly allows you some interesting combinations, e.g. BHX->YYZ then YUL->LGW. I think even cheapish transatlantic one-way fares. In a remarkable case of stability at BHX, you can already book this for 2010, will operate May to October, again with B757, Tuesdays and Saturdays. One should really give these guys some credit, they are one of only two long-haul flights to North America from BHX (not counting US's brief showing). I'm amused by the idea of Americans standing in the airport being confused that there is a Birmingham not in Alabama .
.