CORK - 5

[ryan2000]

Meetings meetings and more meetings

Important meetings at Cork Airport next week in relation to the debt issue. Meeting of the DAA on Monday around the time Senior Management meet the Airport Consultative Commitee in Cork.
This will be followed by a meeting of the CAA. Could be an interesting week in the Southern Capital.

[Tom the Tenor]

Looks like the star of the show for today's Cork Airport Consultative Committee bowed out of today's performance with just 5 minutes to go before curtin up so no opportunity to ask questions of the chairman about his meeting with Minister Dempsey about two weeks ago.

What a shame! Bernard Allen, TD, FG, Cork North Central, very disappointed according to today's Evening Echo. As for the Cork Airport business plan your guess is as good as mine - meaningless until the decision is made about whether Cork Airport will be debt free on independence or not. Well, we all know what was promised by former minister, Seamus Brennan!

Stalemate continues! One thing is for sure though - if snn gets anything near a wad of Euro 60 million on her independence as is being suggested elsewhere on the snn thread Cork will insist on a part of that action and if they want to make snn-LHR a PSO, well, I am sure Cork can come up with a few ideas of her own along that line.

Kathy Sinnott, MEP or not!

[transmagnificat]

Where is Tom The Traveller, en2r and the others who kept us informed of the comings and goings at Cork Airport.
It's a along time since any of them posted any news.

[en2r]

Where is Tom The Traveller, en2r and the others who kept us informed of the comings and goings at Cork Airport.
It's a along time since any of them posted any news.

I'm still here, there just hasn't been much news. One development has been that Ryanair have threatened to pull the 2 new routes (Glasgow and East Midlands) if the CAA increase charges. This may have been a result of the rumours that they may do so if saddled with a large debt.
See story here: http://www.tribune.ie/article.tvt?_s...nair%20cork&FC=
On another note Wizzair have put their Cork routes on sale for Summer 08. Gdansk will stay at 2 weekly while Katowice will increase to 4 weekly during the peak summer months like last year. Still no word on whether Centralwings will increase frequency on Cork-Warsaw as a result of Aer Lingus pulling off the route.

[brian_dromey]

There seems to be nought happening with the airport at the minute. All is quiet. Hopefully there is work being done behind the scenes to get the debt and new routes sorted.

As for the FR guff, call their bluff, I say. Last time FR came crawling back from KIR IIRC. The ORK market needs to be balanced carefully, as FR could easily monopolise a lot of routes rather quickly. I hope the CAA have noted the happenings at SNN. I feel ORK is pretty well balanced to the UK right now, with EI, WW, FR, RE, WOW, LS all having a decent presence. If there was a link to a Star Alliance hub things would be great. SkyTeam is well represented as is oneworld, with two airports each (AMS & CDG, LHR & BUD) respectively. A CPH, ZRH or a FRA would be a great boon.

As an aside was anyone on the EI729 MAN-ORK on the second of Nov? I saw someone taking a few pic with a snazzy camera...2+2=5, I guess.

Brian.

[en2r]

Last time FR came crawling back from KIR IIRC.

Very true, I'd forgotten about the disaster that was Kerry-Liverpool. They didn't seem to mind about the high charges when they moved the flights back to Cork. Cork does have a good variety of carriers to the UK, weren't there also rumours of Flybe doing Norwich next Summer?

If there was a link to a Star Alliance hub things would be great. SkyTeam is well represented as is oneworld, with two airports each (AMS & CDG, LHR & BUD) respectively. A CPH, ZRH or a FRA would be a great boon.

Wouldn't you love to see the look on the Shannon supporters faces if Cork got a Star Alliance connection, they'd really throw their rattle out of the cot and probably demand that Cork turn them away and insist they come to Shannon!!!!! I could be wrong but didn't Swiss go to Zurich from Cork a few summers ago?

As an aside was anyone on the EI729 MAN-ORK on the second of Nov

What were the loads like on the flights?

[840]

I think I was the first person to mention the Norwich link. The source came from the Norwich Airport side of things rather than Cork, so I wasn't too sure of its veracity. There was also no particular airline mentioned, although Flybe would seem by far the most likely. It would be good to see them back in Cork if they did come. Hopefully, it could be the start of links to some of their other bases like Southampton or Exeter.

As regards Star Alliance hubs, Munich is officially a Star Alliance hub, although a link to Frankfurt would be number one on my list of routes I'd like to see out of Cork.

[en2r]

Folks, Seriously do you really think they obsess that much about ORK airport.... please...

I'm not saying thet they obsess about ORK, they just think the world revolves around Shannon. In the midst of the SNN-LHR debacle, some Shannon supporters were calling for Cork to lose some of its LHR flights so Shannon could get a LHR link. They were also moaning when BMI announced an extra flight on the Dublin-LHR route saying that Dublin didn't need the extra flight and that Shannon should have got it. I have no doubt that if Cork got a Star Alliance connection while Shannon still had no connection to a European hub, those same supporters would start moaning about it!

[NC2]

DAA needs Cork to pay €100M

In an article in Business and Finance, Gary McCann (Chairman of the DAA) is reported to have told the Board of the DAA that Cork will have to a pay a minimum of €100 Million of the debt, if the DAA is to remain in a healthy financial state whilst building Terminal 2.
Interstingly, whilst Cork has a debt of €220M and Shannon has indicated it will require capital investment in infrastructure of €70M over the next five years, there appears to be little prospect of funding either of these.
The Terminal 2 project is dependant on increasing the passenger charge in Dublin to €7.75 and the Government permitting the company not to pay a dividend for the foreseeable future, as well as not investing any further in Cork or Shannon.
Gary McCann also told the Board of the DAA however, that all three airports are to remain in State ownership.
It would appear therefore that Aer Rianta still exists, (although more appropiately titled the DAA) and that the orginal purpose of the seperation of the three airports to promote more competition and better serve the regions has had a counter productive effect by distracting the airports from their core function and ending up arguing over who pays for what.
The upshot being that the DAA now has a dual function of looking after the best interests of Dublin Airport and the best interest of Cork & Shannon, which they may eventually lose control over. The legislation was prepared on the basis that spereation would occur and the situation over the last four years was only intended as an interim measure. The DAA's public dealings with Cork (debt issue) and Shannon (Aer Lingus LHR plans) have shown that there is a clear conflict of interest.
Perhaps it would be better for Cork & Shannon to bite the bullet and push for seperation and accept that they will be indebted and somewhat hampered when it comes to future development. Given the DAA's ability to manage large capital projects - it would perhaps be better to be seperated from it before T2 starts to overrun and part of the land bank at Cork looks like an attractive proposition for sale to pay for it !
(Just my two cents)

[fivejuliet]

en2r- In similar vain, you seem to think the world revolves around Cork. Please dont get me wrong.!


The odds of their Shannon or Cork getting a star alliance connection are just as equal at this point in time.

[en2r]

en2r- In similar vain, you seem to think the world revolves around Cork. Please dont get me wrong.!


The odds of their Shannon or Cork getting a star alliance connection are just as equal at this point in time.

I don't think the world revolves around Cork. I know that Cork will always be a shadow of the size of Dublin. It just annoys me the way Shannon supporters go on as if it was a God given right that they have LHR flights. I know Cork probably won't get a Star Alliance connection anytime soon. If you read the posts you'll see that Brian Dromey was the one who mooted the idea. I simply said Shannon supporters would be annoyed if we got one with Shannon having no connection to a European hub.

[brian_dromey]

I was only making the point that Star is VERY poorly represented in the regions, right now, as in not at all. MA is the only carrier to represent the alliances outside of a codeshare agreement, so there is a market there. The O&D traffic to one of the star hubs might surprise you. Probably enough to justify a 4x week service alone, with something like a CRJ/Ejet/Avro, before connections come in at all.
To answer a question, no LX never served ORK to my knowlage, although SN did in 2005 2x week. It mght have been some sort of hybrid charter service, or at least one of the ORK travel agents bought a lot of seats. BRU would be quite popular to Africa, and good for connections with Jet Airways to the US, Canada and Inda, I would imagine.
As for SNN getting at *A connection. I doubt it. No one will operate the service I am thinking of so far. I doubt traffic number to SNN would justify it. Only 25% of EI pax traveled onwards from SNN. That means 75% had their final destinaion as LON. LCY might work with WX though, but even here, ORK would seem a more attractive market, 1m pax/anum. SNN at a lot less than that. Apparently if it were not for LCY and BHD, jetMagic would not have survived for even as long as they did.
Brian.

[fivejuliet]

LX Did operate to Cork during the summer, for the last few years. Not too sure if it operated this year. Was probably a charter however

[eirbus06]

LX

LX never operated scheduled or charter to ORK during the summer in the last few years to the best of my knowledge.Maybe your thinking of OS.

They did(or do) operate to shannon the last few months on a saturday.

[brian_dromey]

What ORK gets or doesnt in terms of air services doesnt really feature at all in thought in the mid west. It is ORK supporters as far as I can see that have the obsession with what SNN gets. Just me 2 cents..

No clearly not. SNN expect Corkonians to travel to SNN to keep their long haul services viable. But when the boot is on the other foot......

As ye always say to us when ORK-US service is discussed. "The new tunnel under the SNN makes the journey even shorter".

SNN has not got a snowballs chance in hell of getting a hub connection. There just is not enough connecting traffic to justify it. FR will swoop in with multiple daily flights to whatever city a carrier were to fly from and gobble up the O&D. Bed. Made. Lie.

Brian.

[vkid]

i dont think anyone "expects" Corkonians to do anything.. (except the usual Peoples Republic, real capital nonsense that many go on with). Nobody in Shannon really gives a about Cork to be honest..the only interest is Shannon and with the current control of everything in Dublin I think people are quite within their rights to shout for whatever they can get. What has become obvious (in the light of the way the LHR issue was handled and the Cork debt) is the DAA are quite happy to strip both SNN and ORK of anything they can before they loose control.

In the grand scheme of things, Corks market really isnt that much bigger than the market SNN serves..in the grand scheme of a world market that is..It is still tiny.

People from the mid west and west have travelled to Cork (and Dublin) for years for European flights and charter sunshine destinations so that argument really doesnt fly either. Needs must and all that (and many still do prefer to fly EI from Cork/Dub rather than FR from SNN ) but you dont hear us saying we are propping up Corks routes.. Its peoples choice at the end of the day.

Shannon faces challenges in Open Skies territory for sure but ye all had transatlantic airlines leaving Shannon en masse a few months ago...which hasnt happened yet. (not to say it won't) but several t/a airlines have signalled their intention to stay and are quite happy with their t/a loads from the airport (most recent being Continental). Other charters are starting next year . Shannon are not "denying" Cork t/a services, its Corks job to get those services now in an Open Skies market.

This Cork v's Shannon thing is tiresome at best and echoing other posters the only ones fuelling that fire are the Corkonians. Ye have this thing about Shannon holding Cork back etc..whatever little credence that had in years gone by it is nonsense in todays market. NOC got t/a services in some form last year (the issues with it not withstanding)..but no-one is blaming SNN up there for anything.

If you have problem flying t/a from Shannon then go to Dublin or fly EI to LHR and fly from there..nobody "expects" you to travel from SNN. The service is there for now use it if you want..

If ye really think people here are looking South with distain for any service ye get ye are both mistaken and extremely small minded.

MY 2 C!

[en2r]

Shannon faces challenges in Open Skies territory for sure but ye all had transatlantic airlines leaving Shannon en masse a few months ago...which hasnt happened yet.

Thats not quite true, Air Canada, American Airlines and Fly Globespan have all pulled out of Shannon since Open Skies, and there are frequent rumours that Aer Lingus will do the same next October, and Delta are said to be lacking in giving any commitments to Shannon for the future.

Ye have this thing about Shannon holding Cork back etc..whatever little credence that had in years gone by it

Vkid, are you oblivious to the massive damage that was done over the years to Cork by the Governments complete favouritism towards Shannon? Its not surprising that Cork people dislike Shannon so much after years of our airport getting the raw end of the deal so Shannon could get ahead.

But I think its time to draw an end to this arguement.

[fruitnfibre]

Ork - Us

Does anyone have any views on potential ORK - US volumes and whether or not a daily NYC service would be viable (using a 757 - 2/300)?

[Tom the Tenor]

The South African Truth & Reconcilliation Commission has nothing on the pouring out of emotion in the last few posts about how snn has never had any ill-will towards Cork.

Tell you what, let snn give Cork a New York slot and Cork can give a LHR slot to the midwest in return.

That would be real truth and reconcilliation.

[Shanwickman]

Well said vkid. When there is something for SNN people to complain about they dont blame Cork. Usually they blame the government or EI, when ORK people complain, to quote a well known poster form ORK, its "that shower up the road".
If ORK gets a T/A service good luck to them. The more services from every airport the more choice for the customer.