CORK - 5
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Leeds, UK & Cork, Ireland
Posts: 1,080
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The FR MAN-SNN is an interesting announcement. We will never know if SNN is subsidising this route or FR are paying 'full' usage fees. The FR SNN-MAN is potentially disastrous for SNN, if SNN-MAN is pulled by EI the base may be at risk, the schedule for the remaining flights may become less attractive, so a lot will depend on the performance of BHX. I find it hard to believe that SNN would wilfully subsidise a route already served.
Aer Lingus Regional has made gains against FR at DUB, held its own at ORK, so it remains to be seen how SNN will play out.
I agree with other posters that there seems to be a lot of potential at Cork, but why does the airport struggle to attract airlines? Is Ireland seen as an FR/EI duoploy in the industry?
Aer Lingus Regional has made gains against FR at DUB, held its own at ORK, so it remains to be seen how SNN will play out.
I agree with other posters that there seems to be a lot of potential at Cork, but why does the airport struggle to attract airlines? Is Ireland seen as an FR/EI duoploy in the industry?
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
but why does the airport struggle to attract airlines?
Not sure that proves a whole pile Jack...but sure carry on.
Would not agree with SNN being the "token idiot", at all but the future will tell.
Would not agree with SNN being the "token idiot", at all but the future will tell.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: nirvana
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"The fact Cork-Stansted has gone thrice daily from the end of Oct with no agreement is testament to that."
Well that would suggest they are building on a profitable, successful route, or one that may have more potential.
It is not however, proof that routes that were axed, were profitable at all.
"You asked me where the routes profitable"
I didn't actually, I asked you, how do you know for certain the routes were profitable.
Well that would suggest they are building on a profitable, successful route, or one that may have more potential.
It is not however, proof that routes that were axed, were profitable at all.
"You asked me where the routes profitable"
I didn't actually, I asked you, how do you know for certain the routes were profitable.
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"The fact Cork-Stansted has gone thrice daily from the end of Oct with no agreement is testament to that."
Well that would suggest they are building on a profitable, successful route, or one that may have more potential.
It is not however, proof that routes that were axed, were profitable at all.
"You asked me where the routes profitable"
I didn't actually, I asked you, how do you know for certain the routes were profitable.
Well that would suggest they are building on a profitable, successful route, or one that may have more potential.
It is not however, proof that routes that were axed, were profitable at all.
"You asked me where the routes profitable"
I didn't actually, I asked you, how do you know for certain the routes were profitable.
You're half reading my posts now and this is where it starts getting annoying, my point was they wanted to grow the operation, thrice daily Stansted was part of the proposed deal (which I am not going to state on here) - the CAA said no to that deal, FR responded by cutting the profitable routes. They then due to demand added the thrice daily STN service with no discount as they were seeking.
The KRK route was the top performing ''EU city-route'' for Ryanair from Cork in Summer 2013, that's a fact, you don't want to believe that well then that's your own issue. It was always sold to near capacity, and was very high yielding - This was due to the fact FR had forced W6 out (thus the 4 weekly Katowice link was gone) replaced with a twice weekly KRK service ramping up the demand/yield for that route. It proved very successful, even when W6 were operating to nearby Katowice it was there best ORK route.
I know for certain the routes were profitable because that's what was stated during the meetings, if you think I'm going to provide you with the minutes of those discussions your, well, mistaken. FR's routes to KRK, WMI, VNO were profitable, they were money makers for W6 who actually prior to August 2012 before FR arrived on the scene, 10 years late, had plans to enter Romania from Cork - At that time there was one connection from DUB to OTP with EI, and no doubt W6 would have gained a significant catchment for the proposed OTP link. Those plans were scuppered, as was their successful portfolio at Cork - For godsake, W6 on one occasion operated four weekly between Cork and Gdansk when the only other link in the country from DUB to GDN could sustain thrice weekly with FR, W6 were actually drawing passengers from FR's DUB services.
Finally this is not a question of the routes being unprofitable as you are seeking to claim, this is a fact that SNN's growth is at the expense of ORK routes and EIR's stable business portfolio at Shannon. That is not growth, that is a predatory form of competition which seeks to eliminate the other players from entering the market and have a controlling say over both airports. That's Cork's dilemma, if EI want to grow and they do they're faced with, well if we launch ORK-FRA, more than likely FR will cut fares between KIR-HHN, add DUB-HHN to undercut our DUB-FRA route thus seeing us lasting one year before limiting the damage. And that's the issue, it happens in cycles. So while you hear the mantra from uneducated TD's about how FR is great for Shannon it is actually anything but and indeed in a few years, for the unteempth time in Shannon's history see that again.
What Cork want's is FR services to untapped markets, where the CAA will offer support/discounts but why should the CAA be expected to give unfair competitive advantage to carriers to gain growth?
A point of note though, ORK-EMA will also be withdrawn by FR that route was unprofitable, glad to say EIR beat FR on the BHX services.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I also think that the DAA will have to be realistic about Cork's status among the airlines of Europe. They will not pay premium rates to land or park there so it's important that incentives and charges are competitive and that costs are kept under control.
The DAA have been playing hardball with Ryanair in relation to Cork for almost 15 years now and they're not winning. They might as well accept that they'll have to give them a generous package if they want to achieve serious growth.
Let the same offer be made to Aerlingus and any one else that's interested.
Having said that the decision to grant Shannon debt free status has seriously undermined Cork and has allowed Ryanair to withdraw from one of the airports and get incentives at the other for the same route something that was never possible when both airports were under Aer Rianta and the DAA.
Maybe it'd be worth asking Wizz to return to Cork now that Ryanair have withdrawn from 3 their former routes.
The DAA have been playing hardball with Ryanair in relation to Cork for almost 15 years now and they're not winning. They might as well accept that they'll have to give them a generous package if they want to achieve serious growth.
Let the same offer be made to Aerlingus and any one else that's interested.
Having said that the decision to grant Shannon debt free status has seriously undermined Cork and has allowed Ryanair to withdraw from one of the airports and get incentives at the other for the same route something that was never possible when both airports were under Aer Rianta and the DAA.
Maybe it'd be worth asking Wizz to return to Cork now that Ryanair have withdrawn from 3 their former routes.
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sure its always Shannon's fault. Its like a bad broken record.
Shannon cannot be blamed for all Corks woes.
Shannon cannot be blamed for all Corks woes.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cork is entitled to compete on a level playing pitch but it's not being allowed to do so by vested interests.
It's a fact that from the artificial stopover to the loss making Aeroflot deal, to the Virgin Express deal of the early 2000's to the deal with Ryanair in 2005 , to having it's debt written off and shouldered by the DAA, Shannon has received special treatment from successive Irish Governments.
This has hindered growth at Dublin and Cork. Look at how Dublin has blossomed into the 7th busiest transatlantic airport in Europe since the stopover was finally consigned to the dustbin of aviation history.
It's a fact that from the artificial stopover to the loss making Aeroflot deal, to the Virgin Express deal of the early 2000's to the deal with Ryanair in 2005 , to having it's debt written off and shouldered by the DAA, Shannon has received special treatment from successive Irish Governments.
This has hindered growth at Dublin and Cork. Look at how Dublin has blossomed into the 7th busiest transatlantic airport in Europe since the stopover was finally consigned to the dustbin of aviation history.
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This has hindered growth at Dublin and Cork. Look at how Dublin has blossomed into the 7th busiest transatlantic airport in Europe since the stopover was finally consigned to the dustbin of aviation history.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: nirvana
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"I'm not blaming SNN, I'm pitying them for doing it again. Haha, that's a pitiful response. You're ignoring a dangerous issue for SNN and seem obvlious to the fact that one of RE's main routes which supports business, is under threat from Shannon."
I'm not ignoring any issue. There are plenty challenges for Shannon, I don't know anyone who thinks any different. Or anyone who thinks an airport dominated by one airline is viable either..
What is being largely ignored though, is that all Cork's problems are not Shannon made.
.
I'm not ignoring any issue. There are plenty challenges for Shannon, I don't know anyone who thinks any different. Or anyone who thinks an airport dominated by one airline is viable either..
What is being largely ignored though, is that all Cork's problems are not Shannon made.
.
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What is being largely ignored though, is that all Cork's problems are not Shannon made.
1) The playing field between Cork and Shannon is not a level one, one had it's debt removed we were told to ensure growth, Cork needs growth to be ensured and it is not being supported in a way that it should be alike Shannon.
2) Shannon has always been supported in ensuring deals which Cork legally cannot, that is not a fair regime. Examples Aeroflot/Ryanair, granted they both came back to hit SNN full force.
3) In relation directly to SNN, I would have no issue with there being routes for example launched to Frankfurt, Madrid or Rome - These are routes that are needed in Munster and they should be pursued. However it is not acceptable that for FR to grow they have to go after Aer Lingus Regional at Shannon, chase Aer Lingus Cork routes, remove their own routes from Cork to Shannon and then for Shannon Airport to release press statements announcing growth which it is most definitely not. The new Ryanair routes from Shannon to Berlin and Poitiers are most welcome. I could say it was fair, SNN included the Santa flights the PR stunt that was to increase marginally there 2013 stats to show growth, but it was not.
There has been one political issue at Cork Airport, a building of a new terminal promised by a Gov TD to be debt free. That's it. Cork has had no favours, SNN has repeatedly had them. And how we the public are ment to view this current set up as legit and fair is borderline ridiculous.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cork and Shannon combined will this year have about 3.7m passengers between them. At the height of the boom in 2007 the combined total was 6.8m. It'll take more than spin, carefully crafted press releases and marketing gimmicks to get real growth going again.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: london
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some excellent points jack1985 could I also add that introducing a new KUN service from shannon will go head to head with what has been a very string performing new KUN service from knock in its first year which has proven their is a significant market for the route from the west of Ireland no doubt knock will be the one to suffer if one of them is pulled to facilitate shannon growth
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Europa
Posts: 1,443
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While Ryanair did chase Easyjet off Cork - Gatwick, it was Easyjet that chased BMIbaby off the same route first, ultimately getting rid of that great little airline from Cork in the process.
If this deal with FR blows up in the face of SNN will the government of the day finally allow the airport to close? Unlikely. If SNN hadn't been propped up by tax payers money for the last 30 years, just imagine where ORK and DUB would be now
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Cork
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would say the main problem is there is simply too many airports and not enough of a population to support them.
Kerry, Knock and Waterford are slightly unneccessary I would think.
Kerry, Knock and Waterford are slightly unneccessary I would think.