LONDON CITY - 2
Join Date: Apr 2001
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I'm not ATC, but I would think that it gives Thames a lot more space to move planes about.
I've never held at Alkin yet - if I read the plates correctly, I think the stack is only two planes deep.
I have had some pretty extended routing to the south, over Kent before turning downwind proper.
I've never held at Alkin yet - if I read the plates correctly, I think the stack is only two planes deep.
I have had some pretty extended routing to the south, over Kent before turning downwind proper.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Underneath downwind R for 09 at EGLC
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I believe more a/c are vectored right hand downwind for rwy 10 i.e. over Dartford/Sidcup and my house! than left hand. Probably for spacing. however during quieter times like sat morning a/c arriving from the north seem more likely to get the shorter left hand join. I also wonder if there is some favoritism going on within thames radar as the BA planes seem to get the shorter option where as the likes of Euromanx and Scot allways nearly always fly over my place when 10 is in use! Although it obviously gives the controller more time to decend the a/c from 4000ft down to 2000ft. A/c fly lower over Sidcup than they used to be before the zone was enlarged ie. 2000ft instead of 2500ft. 
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Mentioning Alkin..... An interesting sight on Sat afternoon.. An Oasis Boeing 747 400 trying to stay within the confinds of the hold for the Biggin airshow at 3000ft... I bet the biggest thing Thames has ever looked after! wow that was an unusual site over Swanley/ Dartford 
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Anyone comment on what was going on last night just after 6pm with a climbing Citation heading west, a VLM Fokker 50 going North and a 125 on long finals for 10......all seen low over Notting Hill in the space of 5 mins. Very unusual.
Join Date: Mar 2001
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1. The 747 didn't work Thames - or ANY of the Biggin AIr Fair Traffic.
2. NO idea about your climbing Citation!
3. Runway 10. There are no changes to procedures for the approach.
Quite simply, if there are departures of 10 (RED!) that climb to 3000ft (They have to because of the CAS) then there is no way you can go downwind left, north of the field. (Inbounds BLUE) Our Manual of Air Traffic Services says that you have to be level at 2000ft and at 180 kts or less by the time you are abeam the field. In the good old days we could go straight ahead off 10 (or rigth turn outs) but that has changed and aircraft must stay on the SID.
The CTA doesn't actually make a difference: Indeed, part of the local enquiry was that aircraft wouldn't actually be vectored on any different profiles, it just offers more protection for the traffic (esp 10 departures).
Mike - NO planes are preffered over an another. Certaianly not a Flyer! It is just luck how you arrive. LAM releases are becoming rarer (But pilots still bitch when told there position in the sequence despite LAM releases cutting 30-40 miles off the STAR!)
In short, LCY is just too busy nowadays to be as creative as once we were........
2. NO idea about your climbing Citation!
3. Runway 10. There are no changes to procedures for the approach.
Quite simply, if there are departures of 10 (RED!) that climb to 3000ft (They have to because of the CAS) then there is no way you can go downwind left, north of the field. (Inbounds BLUE) Our Manual of Air Traffic Services says that you have to be level at 2000ft and at 180 kts or less by the time you are abeam the field. In the good old days we could go straight ahead off 10 (or rigth turn outs) but that has changed and aircraft must stay on the SID.
The CTA doesn't actually make a difference: Indeed, part of the local enquiry was that aircraft wouldn't actually be vectored on any different profiles, it just offers more protection for the traffic (esp 10 departures).
Mike - NO planes are preffered over an another. Certaianly not a Flyer! It is just luck how you arrive. LAM releases are becoming rarer (But pilots still bitch when told there position in the sequence despite LAM releases cutting 30-40 miles off the STAR!)
In short, LCY is just too busy nowadays to be as creative as once we were........
Thread Starter
Alan
Thank you for the explanation, has it really been such a long time since I did left base onto 10 coming home from Edinburgh in the evening ? ! Oh well, I can also remember arriving on Dash-7s from Paris, so I guess I'm showing my age. They were a different style again, you felt they could probably do their entire descent and approach inside the airfield boundary !
Just for interest, what height are we typically at when returning from the north onto 10 and crossing the outbound traffic ? Presumably above 3,000, but beneath the Heathrow traffic. Or is the latter non-existent when on easterlies ? Sorry, but a 1:250,000 VFR chart and a Pooleys Guide is all I currently run to !
And WHY no straight ahead departures from 10 ? Just a reciprocal of 28 arrivals.
Thank you for the explanation, has it really been such a long time since I did left base onto 10 coming home from Edinburgh in the evening ? ! Oh well, I can also remember arriving on Dash-7s from Paris, so I guess I'm showing my age. They were a different style again, you felt they could probably do their entire descent and approach inside the airfield boundary !
Just for interest, what height are we typically at when returning from the north onto 10 and crossing the outbound traffic ? Presumably above 3,000, but beneath the Heathrow traffic. Or is the latter non-existent when on easterlies ? Sorry, but a 1:250,000 VFR chart and a Pooleys Guide is all I currently run to !
And WHY no straight ahead departures from 10 ? Just a reciprocal of 28 arrivals.
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Not sure what you mean in your example - the inblunds through LAM are of course at 4000ft against the deps climbing to 3000ft. (PM if you want!)
When LHR is on Westerlies, they cannot come further EAST than the north-south line through LCY. We cannot be above 3000ft unrtil 3nm EAST of LCY and that line.
It is a shame that we have NEVER had any crews plugged in with us from the operators.
10 left hand downwind does occasionally happen - but there seem to be more and more aircraft!!
No idea why not SA of 10 - as you say it is reciprocal of 28 arrivals, and go-arounds can go straight ahead!
Noise abatement eh! (Though oddly when you are out of the MSA (1800ft)) we can turn you!
When LHR is on Westerlies, they cannot come further EAST than the north-south line through LCY. We cannot be above 3000ft unrtil 3nm EAST of LCY and that line.
It is a shame that we have NEVER had any crews plugged in with us from the operators.
10 left hand downwind does occasionally happen - but there seem to be more and more aircraft!!
No idea why not SA of 10 - as you say it is reciprocal of 28 arrivals, and go-arounds can go straight ahead!
Noise abatement eh! (Though oddly when you are out of the MSA (1800ft)) we can turn you!
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Jetstream J32 Ops into EGLC
Can any one confirm if the Jetstream 32 is cleared for London City Operations? on another thred there was a plug for a Guernsey-London City route to start up unless this aircraft is cleared to operate it is a non starter any way.
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J32 into LCY
As far as I Know the J32 is not cleared for ops into LCY, but the aircraft you mentioned in your last IOM post is! Maybe this will be another of Blue's Routes, it was on their Customer Survey as a potential future route!
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Alan - the 747 did work Thames on leaving the airfield all but for about a minute or so.. they vectored him to Detling before giving him a right turn over sevenoaks before handling him to Gatwick approach! Thanks for the other info
Thread Starter
Red Bull Air Race 28-29 July
The Air Race appears to be taking place that weekend over the river right off the end of 28 !
While on Saturday they seem to be starting right after the airport closes for the weekend, it is carrying on throughout Sunday afternoon. How are things going to be handled ?
Past PPRuNe readers will know I was in St Petersburg, Russia, last year for the race, and it was cancelled at 24 hours notice
so I'm not holding my breath.
While on Saturday they seem to be starting right after the airport closes for the weekend, it is carrying on throughout Sunday afternoon. How are things going to be handled ?
Past PPRuNe readers will know I was in St Petersburg, Russia, last year for the race, and it was cancelled at 24 hours notice
so I'm not holding my breath.
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I understand the Jetstream 41 is cleared for LCY but not the JS31/32
BCI are regular visitors to Biggin Hill bur presumably these will have to be operated as private flights?
FC
BCI are regular visitors to Biggin Hill bur presumably these will have to be operated as private flights?
FC
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Zone enlargement?
When was the zone enlarged? and why change the height from 2000ft to 2500ft?
Would it not make more sense to keep the a/c as high as possible for as long as possible for noise abatement?
Would it not make more sense to keep the a/c as high as possible for as long as possible for noise abatement?
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Check your map, a 'new' Control Area was established to better contain arrivals and just as important, the departures within Controlled Airspace. The airspace is still far from ideal though?
Join Date: May 2005
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Guernsey
I can't imagine a Guernesey would get a slot at the moment. If it was middle of the day then perhaps. Also looking at the airport's charges (www.lcacc.org) they have minimum charges at certain times which make it expensive for small aircraft to operate (cheaper for large aircraft)
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The Airbus A318 has finally been cleared by EASA for LCY operations, as has the EMB Legacy and the Bombardier 605.
http://www.uk-airport-news.info/lond...ews-210607.htm
As has been reported elsewhere in a separate thread, VLM is rumoured to be a take-over target of KLM / Air France. Given the group's presence at LCY, particularly with regard to the growing Cityjet operation, some interesting anti-trust matters would arise. One interesting point would be if the EU would view LCY as a separate market or would assess it as an integral part of the overall LON market.
http://www.uk-airport-news.info/lond...ews-210607.htm
As has been reported elsewhere in a separate thread, VLM is rumoured to be a take-over target of KLM / Air France. Given the group's presence at LCY, particularly with regard to the growing Cityjet operation, some interesting anti-trust matters would arise. One interesting point would be if the EU would view LCY as a separate market or would assess it as an integral part of the overall LON market.
Last edited by virginblue; 22nd Jun 2007 at 15:53. Reason: typo
Thread Starter
Well VLM have trounced KLM on the LCY-Netherlands routes so maybe if you can't beat them commercially you beat them with your chequebook.
VLM's success has been built up on the back of a service standard and style quite the opposite of the KLM/Air France mass-market, do-it-our-way, stuff you if you complain operation, so if they were taken over they would probably lose a fair percentage of their support.
VLM's success has been built up on the back of a service standard and style quite the opposite of the KLM/Air France mass-market, do-it-our-way, stuff you if you complain operation, so if they were taken over they would probably lose a fair percentage of their support.