HEATHROW
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or doing neither, accepting that there is a limit on capacity in the south east and look at alternative options that do not include increasing capacity in the south east - question whether transiting passengers add much to the national economy and whether domestic flights could somehow be removed totally.
Removing domestic flights would simply cut off regional airports from the main UK hub. Exactly how does that help to connect the UK to the world? Or do you just throw your hands up and say what the Hell, let's just gift all that traffic, revenue, frequent flyer loyalty and business to Lufthansa, Air France, KLM and the rest.
Typically British, we don't appreciate how very lucky we are until we are on the point of losing it. Again.
Skipness - might I gently point out that you are posting on a forum that is read by people who are mainly pro-aviation rather than anti - i.e. preaching largely to the semi-converted if not converted.
You seem pretty clued up and passionate on the issue - could I suggest getting out into the wider world, and doing some lobbying, or at least talking to professional lobbyists ?
It's not meant as a s*d off message - it's a genuine "plenty of journalists and opinion makers out there are making it up as they go along, we need people like you to explain the issues clearly to them...."
You seem pretty clued up and passionate on the issue - could I suggest getting out into the wider world, and doing some lobbying, or at least talking to professional lobbyists ?
It's not meant as a s*d off message - it's a genuine "plenty of journalists and opinion makers out there are making it up as they go along, we need people like you to explain the issues clearly to them...."
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The bit that made me laugh in the interview was when 'The Putney Woman' tried to suggest that the new runway would be too short for new aircraft types!! If it is really the case that the C-series, 737 MAX and A32X NEO cannot take off with a good load off a 2000m runway then they might well lose a few orders!! What an ignorant and misleading comment, undoubtedly a poor attempt at masking the fact that a new runway will almost only be used for smaller narrowbody aircraft, which in turn tend to be a fair bit quieter than 747's, 777's and A330/40's and the like...
Does a proportion of the infrastructure costs that are required to get people to and from the airport, be it the Piccadilly Line, Heathrow Express, motorway, road junctions etc not come from the general tax payer?
No doubt the beneficiaries of R3 (BAA) would be expected to incorporate into their scheme a raft of social/community benefits from which they make no direct gain. Section 106 is about to be changed, but the principle will remain that developers are expected to pay a social premium.
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I can accept that a politician is neither strongly for or against a particular position, but surely Justine. Greening anti LHR stance disqualifies her from making an objective decision on the merits of LHR R3?
If she gets moved in the forth coming reshuffle then I think R3 is back on the agenda, it's worth remembering that had Labour got back in then 1000's of people would now be employed building R3 at no cost to HMG
The whole green thing is fast becoming a joke I must haven seen over 500 wind turbines this week static
Ah well take up the hold at BOV delay no more than 10 min or Holly Willo May it just doesn't happen at CDG or AMS
If she gets moved in the forth coming reshuffle then I think R3 is back on the agenda, it's worth remembering that had Labour got back in then 1000's of people would now be employed building R3 at no cost to HMG
The whole green thing is fast becoming a joke I must haven seen over 500 wind turbines this week static
Ah well take up the hold at BOV delay no more than 10 min or Holly Willo May it just doesn't happen at CDG or AMS
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Hi, I know this a bit off topic and it is related to LHR expansion.
But does anyone know what the area to the West of T5 that would be included in the R3 Expansion plans be used for? Surley they would go over the M25? Would this be a new Engineering Base? I know the East Base is in dire need of being replaced.
Here are two separate diagrams showing this area
But does anyone know what the area to the West of T5 that would be included in the R3 Expansion plans be used for? Surley they would go over the M25? Would this be a new Engineering Base? I know the East Base is in dire need of being replaced.
Here are two separate diagrams showing this area
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Hillingdon expansion M25/J14/T5 spur
Over many years land has been taken off various local authorities and handed over to the London Borough of Hillingdon; this is to simplify the planning process, so all Heathrow's planning applications are considered by a single planning authority.
At present to the West of Heathrow in the area of M25/J14, the dividing line between Hillingdon & RBWM is the central reservation of the M25. The proposed land take from the RBWM would put the M25/J14/T5 Heathrow spur in Hillingdon; though the proposal appears to show a larger land take than required by the present T5 spur arrangement.
At present to the West of Heathrow in the area of M25/J14, the dividing line between Hillingdon & RBWM is the central reservation of the M25. The proposed land take from the RBWM would put the M25/J14/T5 Heathrow spur in Hillingdon; though the proposal appears to show a larger land take than required by the present T5 spur arrangement.
Last edited by Windsorian; 29th Aug 2012 at 05:06.
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New engineering base
After the possiblity of a R3 is ruled out, the most likely site for a new engineering base is actually the present T4 site; the sprawling engineering base and surface car parks to the east of Heathrow are a poor land use for a constrained airport.
On 2.8.12 at 20.55 I posted a link (page 92) to a plan published in the FT showing BAA's new "Toastrack" proposals for Heathrow; these cover the rebuilding of T1 / T2 and a major expansion of T5.
However there still remains the sprawling waste of space at the East end of Heathrow between and beyond the present main runways; the proposal for T2C is far back from here.
This leaves plenty of room for new taxiway extensions to the eastern ends of the main runways (similar to the taxiways added at the western end during the construction of T5). This would allow construction of a major new terminal and attendant satellites in the most efficient way between the runways. T3/T4 could be moved here, allowing the present engineering base to be moved to the present T4 location.
On 2.8.12 at 20.55 I posted a link (page 92) to a plan published in the FT showing BAA's new "Toastrack" proposals for Heathrow; these cover the rebuilding of T1 / T2 and a major expansion of T5.
However there still remains the sprawling waste of space at the East end of Heathrow between and beyond the present main runways; the proposal for T2C is far back from here.
This leaves plenty of room for new taxiway extensions to the eastern ends of the main runways (similar to the taxiways added at the western end during the construction of T5). This would allow construction of a major new terminal and attendant satellites in the most efficient way between the runways. T3/T4 could be moved here, allowing the present engineering base to be moved to the present T4 location.
Last edited by Windsorian; 29th Aug 2012 at 06:04.
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Heathrow Boundaries
I seem to recall that the Surrey County boundary used to run through LHR in & around T4.
Do you know if that is still the case or was this 'Tidied up' too?
Do you know if that is still the case or was this 'Tidied up' too?
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Right old giggle this. That "Greening woman" (i.e. the elected MP for Putney who stood and was elected on a manifesto which included non expansion of Heathrow) standing in the way of expanding Heathrow and getting called all sorts of names for doing so. Despite expansion of Heathrow being ruled out in the coalition agreement, a system of cabinet government and the labour party also (currently) being against.
An easy way of getting a thrid runway is to vote for a party which favours expanding Heathrow. It is called democracy.
As an aside, apart from various studies comissioned by those who have a vested interest (i.e the non tax paying airline industry) are there any hard and fast figures which do not rely on supposition/if's, buts and the rest which in stark terms spell out how much UK plc will lose but not having a runway which basically interlines with a an already congested airport.
n.b My preference if anybody should ask is to have another new airport, with lots of room to expand and see Heathrow closed.
An easy way of getting a thrid runway is to vote for a party which favours expanding Heathrow. It is called democracy.
As an aside, apart from various studies comissioned by those who have a vested interest (i.e the non tax paying airline industry) are there any hard and fast figures which do not rely on supposition/if's, buts and the rest which in stark terms spell out how much UK plc will lose but not having a runway which basically interlines with a an already congested airport.
n.b My preference if anybody should ask is to have another new airport, with lots of room to expand and see Heathrow closed.
Surreyman
I grew up in Stanwell which is shown on the maps and adjoins the southern boundaries of LHR altho in those days it was open fields pre cargo centre. Stanwellwas in Middlesex as were Staines and Ashford
In the late sixties or early seventies Middx was done away with and most of it absorbed into various London boroughs but the area south of Heathrow became Surrey even though it was North of the Thames the previous Surrey Middx boundary.
At that time the bondary between Surrey and the GLC area became the LHR perimeter road until just east of Beacon road east of Stanwell where London started.
The western end is complicated because Berks (now Windsor and Slogh (Bucks) both have bits of land there but as far as I am aware Surrey neevr had any claim on any part of LHR itself.
PB
I grew up in Stanwell which is shown on the maps and adjoins the southern boundaries of LHR altho in those days it was open fields pre cargo centre. Stanwellwas in Middlesex as were Staines and Ashford
In the late sixties or early seventies Middx was done away with and most of it absorbed into various London boroughs but the area south of Heathrow became Surrey even though it was North of the Thames the previous Surrey Middx boundary.
At that time the bondary between Surrey and the GLC area became the LHR perimeter road until just east of Beacon road east of Stanwell where London started.
The western end is complicated because Berks (now Windsor and Slogh (Bucks) both have bits of land there but as far as I am aware Surrey neevr had any claim on any part of LHR itself.
PB
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I can accept that a politician is neither strongly for or against a particular position, but surely Justine. Greening anti LHR stance disqualifies her from making an objective decision on the merits of LHR R3?
If she gets moved in the forth coming reshuffle then I think R3 is back on the agenda, it's worth remembering that had Labour got back in then 1000's of people would now be employed building R3 at no cost to HMG
The whole green thing is fast becoming a joke I must haven seen over 500 wind turbines this week static
Ah well take up the hold at BOV delay no more than 10 min or Holly Willo May it just doesn't happen at CDG or AMS
I seem to remember that the manifesto from the Labour party ruled oyut expansion at Heathrow, I could be wrong though.
And since when having a stance disqualifies anybody from taking an objective decision. Hunt had a stance on the digger's influence on television but it didn't stop him....Cabinet ministers have to make decisions per the Wednesbury rules otherwise they are subject to judicial review. Heathrow expansion is different in many cases, unlike the decision to stuff the Bearded one and award First Group the Franchise on the West Coast because the decision to proceed with it or not is innately political. A judge cannot force a politican to give the go-ahead to Heathrow because the heavy briefings by various very vested interests believe it to be the case.....
If she gets moved in the forth coming reshuffle then I think R3 is back on the agenda, it's worth remembering that had Labour got back in then 1000's of people would now be employed building R3 at no cost to HMG
The whole green thing is fast becoming a joke I must haven seen over 500 wind turbines this week static
Ah well take up the hold at BOV delay no more than 10 min or Holly Willo May it just doesn't happen at CDG or AMS
I seem to remember that the manifesto from the Labour party ruled oyut expansion at Heathrow, I could be wrong though.
And since when having a stance disqualifies anybody from taking an objective decision. Hunt had a stance on the digger's influence on television but it didn't stop him....Cabinet ministers have to make decisions per the Wednesbury rules otherwise they are subject to judicial review. Heathrow expansion is different in many cases, unlike the decision to stuff the Bearded one and award First Group the Franchise on the West Coast because the decision to proceed with it or not is innately political. A judge cannot force a politican to give the go-ahead to Heathrow because the heavy briefings by various very vested interests believe it to be the case.....
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here here Baltasound,
Totally agree with the concept of building a whole new one with options for further expansion of that same field (ideally in the Thames esturary)
It's too late to save LHR now. 3rd runway should have been built in the same time frame as T5. That's when it was needed.
Totally agree with the concept of building a whole new one with options for further expansion of that same field (ideally in the Thames esturary)
It's too late to save LHR now. 3rd runway should have been built in the same time frame as T5. That's when it was needed.
Last edited by Nakata77; 29th Aug 2012 at 07:15.
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Hillingdon BC boundary
@ Surreyman et al.
You can find the present Hillingdon Council boundary either on the Hillingdon web-site or on the Ordinance Survey election maps web-site. I've looked myself and the present boundary between the Royal Borough of Windsor & Maidenhead (RBWM) in the area of M25/J14 is the central reservation of the M25.
In 2009 when Labour announced the go-ahead for R3, they proposed another tidying up of the Heathrow boundary - which is why the maps provided by FlyingEagle21 show a Hillingdon extension around M25/J14.
Interestingly at the public display for R3 at the Renaissance / Ramada Hotel another Heathrow extension was exhibited for the inclusion of the A4 Budget car depot to the East of 27R; when I asked why, I was told it was a security matter .
Later we were told that if BAA wished to extend Heathrow over the Budget car depot, then they should purchase it in the open market and not under the excuse of a R3.
You can find the present Hillingdon Council boundary either on the Hillingdon web-site or on the Ordinance Survey election maps web-site. I've looked myself and the present boundary between the Royal Borough of Windsor & Maidenhead (RBWM) in the area of M25/J14 is the central reservation of the M25.
In 2009 when Labour announced the go-ahead for R3, they proposed another tidying up of the Heathrow boundary - which is why the maps provided by FlyingEagle21 show a Hillingdon extension around M25/J14.
Interestingly at the public display for R3 at the Renaissance / Ramada Hotel another Heathrow extension was exhibited for the inclusion of the A4 Budget car depot to the East of 27R; when I asked why, I was told it was a security matter .
Later we were told that if BAA wished to extend Heathrow over the Budget car depot, then they should purchase it in the open market and not under the excuse of a R3.
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New airport?
So how would you solve the small matter of massive social upheaval from the workers and businesses located around Heathrow and in the M4/M40 corridor?
If any new airport is built it theoretically needs to be located west of London and preferably slightly further north/south, so the predominantly east/west traffic flows by-pass London.
Birmingham is too far out, unless that's what HS2 is really about? Any other suggests? Upper Heyford?
Unfortunately successive governments have created this impossible situation and no amount of prevarication and dithering is going to result in an ideal solution.
So how would you solve the small matter of massive social upheaval from the workers and businesses located around Heathrow and in the M4/M40 corridor?
If any new airport is built it theoretically needs to be located west of London and preferably slightly further north/south, so the predominantly east/west traffic flows by-pass London.
Birmingham is too far out, unless that's what HS2 is really about? Any other suggests? Upper Heyford?
Unfortunately successive governments have created this impossible situation and no amount of prevarication and dithering is going to result in an ideal solution.
Last edited by airsmiles; 29th Aug 2012 at 08:04.
I believe the area shown on the plan above to the west is just the new sliproad and infrastructure from the M25. This is an old plan that shows T5 as 'under construction'.
Regarding T2 etc. the whole of LHR is currently being redeveloped so that the airport is laid out parallel to the runways rather than the hexagonal design from the 50's. You can see this in the way both T5 & T2 have been designed and further taxiway improvements are/will be done also.
Lets be sensible here, people want to fly into Heathrow, yes everyone complains that it is a dump but that is exactly the reason it is being redeveloped. T5 & T2 are impressive terminals despite the typical British trait of trying to find fault in our own achievements. An expanded LHR could be a great asset to the country. It will help us build our way out of the recession and will be mostly financed privately, it seems like a win/win situation to me.
As has been said this is more than just an airport, the associated businesses and infrastructure as well as all the workers can not just be relocated to Kent. This is something that Boris fails to mention. He will talk about new jobs around the Thames Estuary but will not speak about the affect of closing LHR on the west of London. Many of the nimbies in these areas do not realise what affect this will have on their surrounding areas but it will have a huge affect on west London and the Thames corridor.
I believe what we are seeing now is the political wheel turning round to what was always going to be the inevitable conclusion, LHR expansion. The cost to the taxpayer both direct and indirect of these political games is what we should be complaining about. This has not been about finding out what is best for the UK but about getting in power and saving face.
Regarding T2 etc. the whole of LHR is currently being redeveloped so that the airport is laid out parallel to the runways rather than the hexagonal design from the 50's. You can see this in the way both T5 & T2 have been designed and further taxiway improvements are/will be done also.
Lets be sensible here, people want to fly into Heathrow, yes everyone complains that it is a dump but that is exactly the reason it is being redeveloped. T5 & T2 are impressive terminals despite the typical British trait of trying to find fault in our own achievements. An expanded LHR could be a great asset to the country. It will help us build our way out of the recession and will be mostly financed privately, it seems like a win/win situation to me.
As has been said this is more than just an airport, the associated businesses and infrastructure as well as all the workers can not just be relocated to Kent. This is something that Boris fails to mention. He will talk about new jobs around the Thames Estuary but will not speak about the affect of closing LHR on the west of London. Many of the nimbies in these areas do not realise what affect this will have on their surrounding areas but it will have a huge affect on west London and the Thames corridor.
I believe what we are seeing now is the political wheel turning round to what was always going to be the inevitable conclusion, LHR expansion. The cost to the taxpayer both direct and indirect of these political games is what we should be complaining about. This has not been about finding out what is best for the UK but about getting in power and saving face.
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Well, I am of half a mind to point out that any "new" airport will not be an overnight mushroom and will take 10 years in then planning and building. So, it is arguable that will give folk time to work out travel and other patterns.
The 10 years will almost be as much as it will take any new runway to be built. As there will have to be fresh planning permission for a start, a public inquiry, a hybrid bill for the inevitable land snatching and a more than inevitable trip to the ECJ in terms of how the new runway will affect various directives (after the domestic appeals process has been exhausted first).
So if a government was to bite the bullet then it would recognise that Heathell would inevitably shut (BAA trousering a fortune from the development of the site) and start consulting widely on where a nice 4 runway with room to expand, closeish to London and with suitable transport links could go.
The 10 years will almost be as much as it will take any new runway to be built. As there will have to be fresh planning permission for a start, a public inquiry, a hybrid bill for the inevitable land snatching and a more than inevitable trip to the ECJ in terms of how the new runway will affect various directives (after the domestic appeals process has been exhausted first).
So if a government was to bite the bullet then it would recognise that Heathell would inevitably shut (BAA trousering a fortune from the development of the site) and start consulting widely on where a nice 4 runway with room to expand, closeish to London and with suitable transport links could go.
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Pax Britanica
Think I have answered my own question here:
"Between 1991 and 1994 a series of changes to the northern and western boundaries of the Borough were made. In 1991 changes to the western boundary with Windsor and Maidenhead resulted in all of the Wraysbury Reservoir coming within Spelthorne and other changes in the vicinity of the M25 Junction 13. In 1994 the Cargo Terminal of Heathrow and part of Terminal 4 were transferred from Spelthorne to the London Borough of Hillingdon and various changes were made along the boundary with the London Boroughs of Hounslow and Richmond upon Thames. In 1995 Poyle and Colnbrook were transferred from Spelthorne to Slough"
Think I have answered my own question here:
"Between 1991 and 1994 a series of changes to the northern and western boundaries of the Borough were made. In 1991 changes to the western boundary with Windsor and Maidenhead resulted in all of the Wraysbury Reservoir coming within Spelthorne and other changes in the vicinity of the M25 Junction 13. In 1994 the Cargo Terminal of Heathrow and part of Terminal 4 were transferred from Spelthorne to the London Borough of Hillingdon and various changes were made along the boundary with the London Boroughs of Hounslow and Richmond upon Thames. In 1995 Poyle and Colnbrook were transferred from Spelthorne to Slough"