HEATHROW
"Back Heathrow" campaign attacked in Commons
Fun and games in the House this week during a backbench debate on, among other topics, Aviation Strategy.
Local Heathrow MPs slated the campaign as "a con" on the grounds that it's funded by the airport (though I thought that was common knowledge) and, more seriously, that it allegedly represents itself as "the voice of the silent majority of west London residents in favour of Heathrow expansion" and seeks to portray the widespread support for the continuing existence of Heathrow as equating to a vote for R3.
House of Commons Hansard Debates for 24 Oct 2013 (pt 0003)
Local Heathrow MPs slated the campaign as "a con" on the grounds that it's funded by the airport (though I thought that was common knowledge) and, more seriously, that it allegedly represents itself as "the voice of the silent majority of west London residents in favour of Heathrow expansion" and seeks to portray the widespread support for the continuing existence of Heathrow as equating to a vote for R3.
House of Commons Hansard Debates for 24 Oct 2013 (pt 0003)
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No, it was more complex than TEAM was 'screwing up' departures.
We weren't 'blindly' using TEAM.
We weren't 'blindly' using TEAM.
It was suggested that TEAM may have been used too routinely by the
NATS London Terminal Control Centre sequencing arrivals before handing
over to Heathrow Tower. Following discussion between airlines, NATS
and HAL a more tactical approach to the use of TEAM* had successfully
been adopted in Phase 2.
NATS London Terminal Control Centre sequencing arrivals before handing
over to Heathrow Tower. Following discussion between airlines, NATS
and HAL a more tactical approach to the use of TEAM* had successfully
been adopted in Phase 2.
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Again, the report is too simplistic.
Under the procedures in force at the beginning of the trial, the objective of TEAM was to reduce inbound delay to the detriment of outbound delay in order to equalise them.
Half way through the Ops freedoms trials, the airlines approached the airport authority to discuss this. They believed that they would rather take the hit on inbound delay if it helped outbound punctuality, especially on the first rotation, so it was a change in priorities. TEAM was not to be used if there was any outbound delay.
The airlines have now re-assessed and it looks like it's going back the other way again.
The problem is that the timescales involved in TEAM are slightly too long to be called 'tactical'. Current thinking is that it's poor form for radar to give a runway change once off the stack, and depending on the runway config the TEAM runway may only be set up for RNAV or LOC/DME approaches, so radar offer the TEAM runway before. The aircraft gets to the stack. Also, we obviously try to TEAM the last heavy in a sequence or the first medium after a heavy, so there might not be one of those offering soon. This means you're talking 30 minutes or more before the first TEAM aircraft lands, once it is decided to TEAM. To judge what the holding point delay and start delay will be 30 to 40 minutes away is still mostly a guess!
Under the procedures in force at the beginning of the trial, the objective of TEAM was to reduce inbound delay to the detriment of outbound delay in order to equalise them.
Half way through the Ops freedoms trials, the airlines approached the airport authority to discuss this. They believed that they would rather take the hit on inbound delay if it helped outbound punctuality, especially on the first rotation, so it was a change in priorities. TEAM was not to be used if there was any outbound delay.
The airlines have now re-assessed and it looks like it's going back the other way again.
The problem is that the timescales involved in TEAM are slightly too long to be called 'tactical'. Current thinking is that it's poor form for radar to give a runway change once off the stack, and depending on the runway config the TEAM runway may only be set up for RNAV or LOC/DME approaches, so radar offer the TEAM runway before. The aircraft gets to the stack. Also, we obviously try to TEAM the last heavy in a sequence or the first medium after a heavy, so there might not be one of those offering soon. This means you're talking 30 minutes or more before the first TEAM aircraft lands, once it is decided to TEAM. To judge what the holding point delay and start delay will be 30 to 40 minutes away is still mostly a guess!
Last edited by Gonzo; 27th Oct 2013 at 11:52.
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Flows departures canx so far...
Aer Lingus 0850 Dub , 0930 Ork, 0950 Dub , 0950 BHD
Lufthansa 0845 Fra ,0910 Txl , 1445 Ham
Swiss 1150 Zrh
KLM 1145 Ams , 2025 Ams
Virgin 0905 Man , 0910 Edi , 0915 ABZ , 1035 Bom
BA 0630 Arn , 0635 Edi ,0655 Bru , 0705 Ory ,0705 Txl ,0705 Mxp ,0710 Man ,
0715 ABZ, 0725 Dus , 0735 Ham , 0735 NCL ,0740 GLA , 0745 LBA ,0820 Fra ,
0825 Nce ,0830 Bgo ,0855 Edi , 0940 Muc ,1040 Lin ,1050 RTM ,1250 BHD ,
1255 Bru , 1255 Cdg, 1305 Fbu ,1320 Gva , 1355 Mad ,1455 GLA , 1515 Cdg ,
1535 Zrh , 1550 NCL ,1600 Svg ,1630 Mad ,1705 Bsl ,1815 Man , 1905 LBA,
1915 Edi .
All BA canx are Domestic/European shorthaul , at moment full longhaul programme.
United appear to be delaying most of their inbounds tonight by 3-4hours to arrive LHR when worst of the storm has passed.
KLM are saying departures at AMS will be affected by high winds and have canx departures to BHX ,MAN and MSE as well as LHR .
FLYbe have canx first Jer/LGW rotation .
Aer Lingus 0850 Dub , 0930 Ork, 0950 Dub , 0950 BHD
Lufthansa 0845 Fra ,0910 Txl , 1445 Ham
Swiss 1150 Zrh
KLM 1145 Ams , 2025 Ams
Virgin 0905 Man , 0910 Edi , 0915 ABZ , 1035 Bom
BA 0630 Arn , 0635 Edi ,0655 Bru , 0705 Ory ,0705 Txl ,0705 Mxp ,0710 Man ,
0715 ABZ, 0725 Dus , 0735 Ham , 0735 NCL ,0740 GLA , 0745 LBA ,0820 Fra ,
0825 Nce ,0830 Bgo ,0855 Edi , 0940 Muc ,1040 Lin ,1050 RTM ,1250 BHD ,
1255 Bru , 1255 Cdg, 1305 Fbu ,1320 Gva , 1355 Mad ,1455 GLA , 1515 Cdg ,
1535 Zrh , 1550 NCL ,1600 Svg ,1630 Mad ,1705 Bsl ,1815 Man , 1905 LBA,
1915 Edi .
All BA canx are Domestic/European shorthaul , at moment full longhaul programme.
United appear to be delaying most of their inbounds tonight by 3-4hours to arrive LHR when worst of the storm has passed.
KLM are saying departures at AMS will be affected by high winds and have canx departures to BHX ,MAN and MSE as well as LHR .
FLYbe have canx first Jer/LGW rotation .
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Local Heathrow MPs slated the campaign as "a con" on the grounds that it's funded by the airport (though I thought that was common knowledge) and, more seriously, that it allegedly represents itself as "the voice of the silent majority of west London residents in favour of Heathrow expansion" and seeks to portray the widespread support for the continuing existence of Heathrow as equating to a vote for R3.
Strange position for John to take bearing in mind (1) the number of airport workers in his constituency and (2) most of his constituents are not under the flightpath and won't be with rwy 3.
Several elementary errors in the debate. Two examples:
(1) comparing today's situtation with "Roskill", "Roskill" was about a "third" London airport, a role now taken by LTN and STN, not about expanding or replacing LHR;
(2) the statement that LHR managers now want 5 rwys, no, it's still 3 with an option for a 4th, the map shows 3 potential sites for 1 and/or 2 new rwys.
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 27th Oct 2013 at 23:34.
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BCALBOY, I see you still haven't seen the latest news about FBU. The last flight out was on 7 October 1998 19:32lt, and it has now been closed over 13 years 
BA766 LHR-OSL is cancelled Monday 28 October. It also looks like SK803 flying in to LHR from OSL has been cancelled.
BA766 LHR-OSL is cancelled Monday 28 October. It also looks like SK803 flying in to LHR from OSL has been cancelled.
Strange position for John to take
bearing in mind (1) the number of airport workers in his constituency
and (2) most of his constituents are not under the flightpath and won't be with rwy 3.
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NOTHING CHANGES!
TWA in-house staff newletter, 20-8-79, bottom of page 2 has a piece about Heathrow. There's a good quote in it by Larry Langley, TWA’s UK general manager : "Britain is trying to a quart of air travel into a pint pot”
Note the date!
http://www.umkc.edu/whmckc/twa/TWASk...1979.08.20.pdf
Note the date!
http://www.umkc.edu/whmckc/twa/TWASk...1979.08.20.pdf
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Heathrow Holds
Does anyone know where on the net i can find maps of the 4 Heathrow inbound holds? Ive looked on Nats but although the STARS are on there im just really only interested in the actual holding patterns overlaid on an Ordanance Survey/roadmap type layout.
Regards
Andy
Regards
Andy
Does anyone know where on the net i can find maps of the 4 Heathrow inbound holds? Ive looked on Nats but although the STARS are on there im just really only interested in the actual holding patterns overlaid on an Ordanance Survey/roadmap type layout.
Bear in mind that a hold isn't a pre-defined racetrack in the sky - if you have looked at the STARs you will know that the only defined parameters are the fix, the inbound track, and the leg length (time). The actual track flown over the ground, in particular the outbound leg, will vary with the wind and the aircraft speed.
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Laming - word of the year
Heathrow Director @LHRDirector
OED announce their word of the year.. Seflie! Ours is "Laming", approaching LAM at 320kts or higher in the vain hope you will get a pass!
OED announce their word of the year.. Seflie! Ours is "Laming", approaching LAM at 320kts or higher in the vain hope you will get a pass!
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