CORK
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Re: CORK
I'd have to agree with Cyrano. Cruise Mach No. on the ocean for an A319 is around .76. The procedural separation between a B744 following an A319 on the ocean would therefore be in the region of 40 mins. That's a long time to block up a core track in the middle of a busy east or west flow. The guys in Prestwick would get pretty tired of that scenario!
The only option therefore for an A319 would be either to fly on a non core or random track thereby avoiding the busy flow areas or fly on the core but off peak. On an aircraft that would already be tight enough fuel wise these are fairly draconian options. I can't ever really see the day then that A319's will be a common feature on the ocean.
The idea of BA 75's out of Cork is certainly interesting though!
The only option therefore for an A319 would be either to fly on a non core or random track thereby avoiding the busy flow areas or fly on the core but off peak. On an aircraft that would already be tight enough fuel wise these are fairly draconian options. I can't ever really see the day then that A319's will be a common feature on the ocean.
The idea of BA 75's out of Cork is certainly interesting though!
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Re: CORK
A sad day today for Cork Airport. Let the record show that the airport has today suffered a blow that could see Cork Airport lose more than 100,000 passengers in a full year. The final Ryanair FR903/4 arrived from London Stansted Airport at lunchtime. The aircraft for today's flights was EI-CSE and the last load out on the service to Stansted was 137+1 passengers. Yes, 137 passengers! Let us remember that Ryanair were advertising last summer a total of six daily flights from Stansted to Cork for the winter schedule on their website. There will now be three daily flights from Stansted to Cork from tomorrow except on Saturdays in the summer when there will be just two flights! Food for thought there for any airport in any future negotiations with Ryanair?
Reading some of the posts above has me thinking that the billions of euros to be spent on the tunnel across the river Shannon is almost for the sole purpose of nicking passengers from the Cork area to travel to snn for transatlantic flights! To that end I bet there will be no toll to use the tunnel either!
Meanwhile, Cork Airport may be struggling to service a debt for the 163 million euro debt for her new terminal whilst snn sits comfortably and smugly with it's smartly renovated terminal not to mention all those airbridges! By the way, heard a story the other day they want new airbridges too at snn!
A good point is made about how political pressure was applied some years ago to resurect a ferry service between Cork and Wales and that in the past Cork people have been pretty thick when it came to using the airport. It is all different now though and maybe history can teach us a thing or two?
The apologists for snn and their promoting of a continuation of a stopover type status quo post Open Skies have now too had their say and their failed attempts to categorise Cork and her airport as being regional is nothing but a slur. Cork Airport has beaten Shannon Airport in terminal passengers for the years 2003 and 2004 and those figures for snn have included it's U.S. bound passengers so by no means is Cork small or regional if you want to make such comparisons.
However, Aer Lingus chiefs need to be cross examined on the matter of the A330 at Cork. Is it possible, yes or no? I have no real problem if EI SOPs say no, it is not the case. Aer Lingus chiefs need to come clean, that is all and everyone can then move on to the next project. The Oireachtas Committe on Transport might be the right forum to have these questions addressed? Rememeber again the runway at NCL is 642 feet longer than Cork and she has flights to Orlando SFB with MON A330 so if a modest runway extension was needed at Cork for flights to U.S. East Coast we might as well begin the work here.
As for A319 & 73G, well COPA Panama fly 73G PTY to EZE with a full load and direct too and that has got to be as far as ORK-EWR? One thing to remember though is whatever treacheries are put before Cork Airport by her rivals and by those who would do her down like was done for so long in the past your way will fail. Cork Airport will prevail and she will have flights to America. Cork Airport and Cork will not be beaten.
Reading some of the posts above has me thinking that the billions of euros to be spent on the tunnel across the river Shannon is almost for the sole purpose of nicking passengers from the Cork area to travel to snn for transatlantic flights! To that end I bet there will be no toll to use the tunnel either!
Meanwhile, Cork Airport may be struggling to service a debt for the 163 million euro debt for her new terminal whilst snn sits comfortably and smugly with it's smartly renovated terminal not to mention all those airbridges! By the way, heard a story the other day they want new airbridges too at snn!
A good point is made about how political pressure was applied some years ago to resurect a ferry service between Cork and Wales and that in the past Cork people have been pretty thick when it came to using the airport. It is all different now though and maybe history can teach us a thing or two?
The apologists for snn and their promoting of a continuation of a stopover type status quo post Open Skies have now too had their say and their failed attempts to categorise Cork and her airport as being regional is nothing but a slur. Cork Airport has beaten Shannon Airport in terminal passengers for the years 2003 and 2004 and those figures for snn have included it's U.S. bound passengers so by no means is Cork small or regional if you want to make such comparisons.
However, Aer Lingus chiefs need to be cross examined on the matter of the A330 at Cork. Is it possible, yes or no? I have no real problem if EI SOPs say no, it is not the case. Aer Lingus chiefs need to come clean, that is all and everyone can then move on to the next project. The Oireachtas Committe on Transport might be the right forum to have these questions addressed? Rememeber again the runway at NCL is 642 feet longer than Cork and she has flights to Orlando SFB with MON A330 so if a modest runway extension was needed at Cork for flights to U.S. East Coast we might as well begin the work here.
As for A319 & 73G, well COPA Panama fly 73G PTY to EZE with a full load and direct too and that has got to be as far as ORK-EWR? One thing to remember though is whatever treacheries are put before Cork Airport by her rivals and by those who would do her down like was done for so long in the past your way will fail. Cork Airport will prevail and she will have flights to America. Cork Airport and Cork will not be beaten.
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Re: CORK
Mark D.
It isn't quite as easy as that. Levels between 310-390 tend to be very congested on core tracks. Sticking an A319 into anyone of them causes problems.
Tom T
I'm not saying that an A319 or 73-7 could'nt do the trip just that i don't think it would be economically viable.
While i know that your comments about the Shannon tunnel are tongue in cheek, drivers on the Dock and Condell Roads during rush hour traffic in Limerick would strongly disagree and would care little for the impact that the tunnel will have on Shannon TA ops!
Believe it or not Shannon is very short of air bridges during the morning and early afternoon (they have to move aircraft after disembarking to old Taxiway 11 until they are ready to depart again). This situation will get worse during the Summer season especially with the extra N. Atlantic frequencies.They are only preempting the situation before it gets worse.
To the best of my knowledge passenger traffic in Shannon was ahead of Cork in 2005 but i stand corrected!
Cork will get TA flights i don't doubt it. It's just that i see it later rather than sooner. In the meantime let's support the new destinations. Berlin in the Summer.
It isn't quite as easy as that. Levels between 310-390 tend to be very congested on core tracks. Sticking an A319 into anyone of them causes problems.
Tom T
I'm not saying that an A319 or 73-7 could'nt do the trip just that i don't think it would be economically viable.
While i know that your comments about the Shannon tunnel are tongue in cheek, drivers on the Dock and Condell Roads during rush hour traffic in Limerick would strongly disagree and would care little for the impact that the tunnel will have on Shannon TA ops!
Believe it or not Shannon is very short of air bridges during the morning and early afternoon (they have to move aircraft after disembarking to old Taxiway 11 until they are ready to depart again). This situation will get worse during the Summer season especially with the extra N. Atlantic frequencies.They are only preempting the situation before it gets worse.
To the best of my knowledge passenger traffic in Shannon was ahead of Cork in 2005 but i stand corrected!
Cork will get TA flights i don't doubt it. It's just that i see it later rather than sooner. In the meantime let's support the new destinations. Berlin in the Summer.
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Re: CORK
Originally Posted by MarkD
handover
couldn't the 744 just go over the 319? 319 with a full load is probably not seeing much over FL350 right?
couldn't the 744 just go over the 319? 319 with a full load is probably not seeing much over FL350 right?
Can't beat the view of watching a 777 or 747 1000ft above on the same track 1/2 mile in front though!!
Originally Posted by Tom the Tenor
.....Aer Lingus chiefs need to be cross examined on the matter of the A330 at Cork. Is it possible, yes or no? I have no real problem if EI SOPs say no, it is not the case. Aer Lingus chiefs need to come clean...
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Re: CORK
Originally Posted by Tom the Tenor
As for A319 & 73G, well COPA Panama fly 73G PTY to EZE with a full load and direct too and that has got to be as far as ORK-EWR?
Anyways carry on all........
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Re: CORK
INLAK
will take your word for it - BA's 744s have rarely been as low as FL370 in the Oceanic part on my trips to YYZ but am not a PP. (of the flying variety or indeed of the religious kind
)
Tom
if demand for STN is so good, perhaps Easy will fill it?
will take your word for it - BA's 744s have rarely been as low as FL370 in the Oceanic part on my trips to YYZ but am not a PP. (of the flying variety or indeed of the religious kind
)Tom
if demand for STN is so good, perhaps Easy will fill it?
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Re: CORK
We have to be wary of the notion that Aer Lingus have some kind of duty to provide transatlantic services from Cork. Even though, they are government owned, they are still a commercial organisation and from their perspective will only consider it if it is to be profitable.
As regards the range of an A319. The distance to Boston would be 1,000 NM under it's stated range; the distance to New York would be 800NM under. Destinations in the North-East of the US shouldn't be an issue for range; profitability, the technical issues decribed by Handover and the lack of ETOPS certification would seem to be stinking points.
As regards the range of an A319. The distance to Boston would be 1,000 NM under it's stated range; the distance to New York would be 800NM under. Destinations in the North-East of the US shouldn't be an issue for range; profitability, the technical issues decribed by Handover and the lack of ETOPS certification would seem to be stinking points.
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Re: CORK
TTT- the 903/4 is not finished for good. So you can hold your horses. FR are having crewing problems at the moment so they have to cancel alot of flights for the next 3 months. Unfortunatley Cork was one of the destinations that they reduced the frequencies. And before you start off about FR using the 903/4 aircraft to do a start a new service from STN to NTS you can forget about it. The NTS service started last November.
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Re: CORK
Lads your loyalty to ORK is commendable if naive.
As I've said here before Cork has done very well considering the terrible hand it was dealt.
Regular transatlantic flights from ORK is a nice idea but I reckon a long way off. The disruption to an operator caused by a TA diversion can take days to recover. We have pointed out many reasons why ORK isn't suitable but still the dream persists.
A Mach 76 aircraft on the track system would be a big problem but not unsurmountable, particularly if many such aircraft started doing crossings. They might ultimately get a level for themselves at 76 but that would be a long way off. A better idea would be clever scheduling to just miss the tracks.
Talk of Boston and New York being 1000 and 800 miles short of the range of an A319 is a bit like planning your season on Ronan O'Gara hitting all half way penalty kicks against the wind.
To be seriously considered Cork needs a parallel taxiway for 17/35 ( a very very basic requirement ). Secondly and more importantly it needs a long east/west runway with year round, reliable Cat II ( at least ). Belfast is Cat IIIB and has 4 useable runways for heavies FFS.
As I've said here before Cork has done very well considering the terrible hand it was dealt.
Regular transatlantic flights from ORK is a nice idea but I reckon a long way off. The disruption to an operator caused by a TA diversion can take days to recover. We have pointed out many reasons why ORK isn't suitable but still the dream persists.
A Mach 76 aircraft on the track system would be a big problem but not unsurmountable, particularly if many such aircraft started doing crossings. They might ultimately get a level for themselves at 76 but that would be a long way off. A better idea would be clever scheduling to just miss the tracks.
Talk of Boston and New York being 1000 and 800 miles short of the range of an A319 is a bit like planning your season on Ronan O'Gara hitting all half way penalty kicks against the wind.
To be seriously considered Cork needs a parallel taxiway for 17/35 ( a very very basic requirement ). Secondly and more importantly it needs a long east/west runway with year round, reliable Cat II ( at least ). Belfast is Cat IIIB and has 4 useable runways for heavies FFS.
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Re: CORK
Originally Posted by Faire d'income
To be seriously considered Cork needs a parallel taxiway for 17/35 ( a very very basic requirement ).
Incidentally, I heard a story about Ryanair possibly starting a service to Montpellier. Anyone know anything about this?
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Re: CORK
While a parallel taxiway is very desireable, I'm not so sure why the lack of one is a particular barrier to Transatlantic. I agree with the need for CAT3 but I don't think the airlines are putting any great pressure on for its introduction.
In fact Aer Arann and BMI Baby refuse to avail of the CAT2 facilities at the airport. The latter seem to vary their RVR CAT1 landing limits according to the mood of who ever is flying the plane.
In fact Aer Arann and BMI Baby refuse to avail of the CAT2 facilities at the airport. The latter seem to vary their RVR CAT1 landing limits according to the mood of who ever is flying the plane.
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Re: CORK
The Ryanair service STN-NTE did not begin in November. There was a lot of hot air about it though from the FR wigwam around that time. The service was due to begin today, 11th January, 2005 at 11.30 am. Are yez all tryin' to add to me all ready sky high cholesterol!?
Shamrock 125, yes, I defer to your remarks about variables like prevailing winds, weather, temps etc playing a part in how well 737-700 or an A319 would do on a long flight. I was just giving the Panama Buenos Aires Copa flight as an example that there are a few such long flights around the world and anyway 737-700s or A319 would be way too small for Cork - New York!!
bmi baby's general level of overall cop on must be questioned in their flying operations to Cork. Even Thomsonfly who flew CVT-ORK with 737-500s for a releatively short period last year got up to speed and sent over an aircraft one evening to sort out whatever issues they had with doing CATII approaches at Cork and shortly after the line flights always did CATIIs when it was necessary so how about it, bmi baby?
I will return to other matters a little later but for now I have an appointment with a classy Austrian frau so must go!
Shamrock 125, yes, I defer to your remarks about variables like prevailing winds, weather, temps etc playing a part in how well 737-700 or an A319 would do on a long flight. I was just giving the Panama Buenos Aires Copa flight as an example that there are a few such long flights around the world and anyway 737-700s or A319 would be way too small for Cork - New York!!
bmi baby's general level of overall cop on must be questioned in their flying operations to Cork. Even Thomsonfly who flew CVT-ORK with 737-500s for a releatively short period last year got up to speed and sent over an aircraft one evening to sort out whatever issues they had with doing CATII approaches at Cork and shortly after the line flights always did CATIIs when it was necessary so how about it, bmi baby?
I will return to other matters a little later but for now I have an appointment with a classy Austrian frau so must go!
Last edited by Tom the Tenor; 12th Jan 2006 at 22:43.
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Re: CORK
Originally Posted by ryan2000
....The latter seem to vary their RVR CAT1 landing limits according to the mood of who ever is flying the plane.....
I hope you've got good back-up evidence before starting to question the professionalism of certain groups in an open forum.
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Re: CORK
no i think hes referring to baby not carrying out a Cat2 well above limits,when the others did,i think it was more to do with the crane for the new terminal being a certain obstruction (dont know why) so they shot cat1.
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Re: CORK
Hi Tom,
You are ill informed sir. The Ryanair service to NTE did start in November.
I have travelled on it twice already in December. Loads very light on both occasions. It took just about an hour in each direction and was 20 mins early always. NTE is a masive regional airport - gold plated.
Interesting to see that SNN have taken a real low cost approach to the Ryanair terminal facilities. The departing passengers are held in basically a wide corridor downstairs with just a handful of seats in one of the oldest parts of the terminal building. Standing room only ready for the seat scrum. It is a short stroll then to the based Ryanair aircraft which are all lined up in a row at the end of the old terminal. It is as far away from the TA aircraft as possible. The check in area and baggage hall is massive at SNN - bigger than even the new ORK terminal.
The French market goes to Connemara as much as Kerry and Cork for their holidays. So SNN seems the right location for a three times weekly NTE service. Also Ryanair does not have to compete with ferries from SNN.
Do you know how long the time limits are to prepare for CAT II ops Tom? It is not so simple for the airport or operator. BMIBaby are just correctly prudent.
Cork has a fundamental problem with fog. It has had fog problems for 30 years and it will have fog problems for another 30 years. The location and slopes mean CAT III is never going to happen. ORK is lucky that it has close diversion options at SNN and KIR which are happy to handle diverted a/c.
Aer Lingus have no commercial interest in TA from ORK. They have a long standing business at SNN and there would be too many restrictions on the use of an A330.
You are ill informed sir. The Ryanair service to NTE did start in November.
I have travelled on it twice already in December. Loads very light on both occasions. It took just about an hour in each direction and was 20 mins early always. NTE is a masive regional airport - gold plated.
Interesting to see that SNN have taken a real low cost approach to the Ryanair terminal facilities. The departing passengers are held in basically a wide corridor downstairs with just a handful of seats in one of the oldest parts of the terminal building. Standing room only ready for the seat scrum. It is a short stroll then to the based Ryanair aircraft which are all lined up in a row at the end of the old terminal. It is as far away from the TA aircraft as possible. The check in area and baggage hall is massive at SNN - bigger than even the new ORK terminal.
The French market goes to Connemara as much as Kerry and Cork for their holidays. So SNN seems the right location for a three times weekly NTE service. Also Ryanair does not have to compete with ferries from SNN.
Do you know how long the time limits are to prepare for CAT II ops Tom? It is not so simple for the airport or operator. BMIBaby are just correctly prudent.
Cork has a fundamental problem with fog. It has had fog problems for 30 years and it will have fog problems for another 30 years. The location and slopes mean CAT III is never going to happen. ORK is lucky that it has close diversion options at SNN and KIR which are happy to handle diverted a/c.
Aer Lingus have no commercial interest in TA from ORK. They have a long standing business at SNN and there would be too many restrictions on the use of an A330.
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Re: CORK
Originally Posted by neidin
.....Cork has a fundamental problem with fog. It has had fog problems for 30 years and it will have fog problems for another 30 years....
Last edited by INLAK; 12th Jan 2006 at 12:06.
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Re: CORK
i agree with neidin,CAT3 will never happen,its also not as simple as planting a few antennas and away we go,signal protection must be in order,a CAT3 holding point at cork would probably be on stand or somewhere at the taxi rank out the front!! also CAT3 involves the capability of airport services(i.e the fire service etc etc).