CORK
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Re: CORK
Originally Posted by MarkD
Inlak
(re: the 737 pilots)
......Converting from 737-2G to 757 is probably easier than to 320 given sidestick etc. Surely the 330 seats were generally filled from 320 not 737 given the easier conversion?.......
(re: the 737 pilots)
......Converting from 737-2G to 757 is probably easier than to 320 given sidestick etc. Surely the 330 seats were generally filled from 320 not 737 given the easier conversion?.......
Everything works to seniority, you have to wait your turn.
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Re: CORK
Last Wednesday the Irish Department of Finance reported a budget surplus for 2005 of up to 2.5 billion euros. It would be good to think that the Cork Airport Authority along with the local public representatives could get together to make a strong case to government for some support to aid Cork with it's 163 million euro of debt for the new terminal.
The Cork Airport Authority needs to be more robust in it's negotiations with the Dublin Airport Authority and not be intimidated by the former Aer Rianta mandarins many of whom must still be throwing their weight around at the DAA. The clever people at snn have been good at being bolshy for decades so much so that even government ministers like Mary O'Rourke were only putty in the hands of the midwest mafias and gave way so much of the time to Shannon by steadfastedly holding to the staus quo with the stopover.
Cyrano's posts are thoughtful. He explains yield on business class seats to America and how important high loads are in that part of the cabin. Clever use of airport marketing supports is explained and how they can help and the poor likelihood of EI ever using 757s for flights across the Atlantic is outlined and quickly excluded. Cyrano concludes that flights from Cork to America are not feasible.
To me this is like Mary O'Rourke's sort of attitude - it concedes too much to Shannon and goes along with the status quo. The lobby at snn has had a competitive advantage with flights to America for too long because of the stopover and better airport infrastructure and Cork has not had a hope in these unfair circumstances. The stopover has suited Aer Lingus too in many ways and along with the short runway at Cork they have had the perfect excuse to do nothing for too long.
It is time to say No! Cork Airport will no longer be weak and be dictated to by an agenda of dirty politics propping up a competitive and clearly unfair advantage which snn has enjoyed for far too long. It is time for Cork people and the people of Cork, Kerry, Waterford and the South Munster area along with the supporters of Cork Airport to be strong and do the work and to get our airport the services to America that our people deserve. The political gombeens like Mary O'Rourke whom would be happy to keep Cork down to keep Shannon strong have had their day. Cork people will not be spoken down to anymore by the lobby from the midwest and their political yes men - Cork Airport will have direct flights to America!
The Cork Airport Authority needs to be more robust in it's negotiations with the Dublin Airport Authority and not be intimidated by the former Aer Rianta mandarins many of whom must still be throwing their weight around at the DAA. The clever people at snn have been good at being bolshy for decades so much so that even government ministers like Mary O'Rourke were only putty in the hands of the midwest mafias and gave way so much of the time to Shannon by steadfastedly holding to the staus quo with the stopover.
Cyrano's posts are thoughtful. He explains yield on business class seats to America and how important high loads are in that part of the cabin. Clever use of airport marketing supports is explained and how they can help and the poor likelihood of EI ever using 757s for flights across the Atlantic is outlined and quickly excluded. Cyrano concludes that flights from Cork to America are not feasible.
To me this is like Mary O'Rourke's sort of attitude - it concedes too much to Shannon and goes along with the status quo. The lobby at snn has had a competitive advantage with flights to America for too long because of the stopover and better airport infrastructure and Cork has not had a hope in these unfair circumstances. The stopover has suited Aer Lingus too in many ways and along with the short runway at Cork they have had the perfect excuse to do nothing for too long.
It is time to say No! Cork Airport will no longer be weak and be dictated to by an agenda of dirty politics propping up a competitive and clearly unfair advantage which snn has enjoyed for far too long. It is time for Cork people and the people of Cork, Kerry, Waterford and the South Munster area along with the supporters of Cork Airport to be strong and do the work and to get our airport the services to America that our people deserve. The political gombeens like Mary O'Rourke whom would be happy to keep Cork down to keep Shannon strong have had their day. Cork people will not be spoken down to anymore by the lobby from the midwest and their political yes men - Cork Airport will have direct flights to America!
Last edited by Tom the Tenor; 6th Jan 2006 at 07:20.
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Re: CORK
It was not a budget surplus in Ireland. It was just 2.5 billion less to borrow than was projected. Spending 163 million on a project at ORK which is already too small and which the unions are currently refusing to move into on health and safety grounds is not clever.
Forget pie in the sky flights to America off a foggy short runway. Cork needs to worry about bread and butter flights from a small catchment area of just 500,000 pax. Worry about Birmingham Uk and not Birmingham Alabama.
EURO 8 million a year debt repayments and a further EURO 4 million a year in maintenance contracts and repairs on the new EURO 163 million capital project are the reality. They need to find EURO 12 million annually in additional revenue the day they move a few 100 yeards into the new badly designed building.
Forget all this rubbish about CAT III. The land is too sloping - it will never happen.
Five different operators over the last 4 years have anounced USA flights, started taking bookings and cancelled them before they started. Seems like a pattern there. If there is such a theoretical demand out there - well these mystery Cork people - don't seem to want to spend the money.
You need a strong sales guy at Cork. John Smyth is gone nearly a year - then he pops up to negotiate on behalf on Aer Lingus to screw a deal at Cork Airport. That speaks volumes.
Forget pie in the sky flights to America off a foggy short runway. Cork needs to worry about bread and butter flights from a small catchment area of just 500,000 pax. Worry about Birmingham Uk and not Birmingham Alabama.
EURO 8 million a year debt repayments and a further EURO 4 million a year in maintenance contracts and repairs on the new EURO 163 million capital project are the reality. They need to find EURO 12 million annually in additional revenue the day they move a few 100 yeards into the new badly designed building.
Forget all this rubbish about CAT III. The land is too sloping - it will never happen.
Five different operators over the last 4 years have anounced USA flights, started taking bookings and cancelled them before they started. Seems like a pattern there. If there is such a theoretical demand out there - well these mystery Cork people - don't seem to want to spend the money.
You need a strong sales guy at Cork. John Smyth is gone nearly a year - then he pops up to negotiate on behalf on Aer Lingus to screw a deal at Cork Airport. That speaks volumes.
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Re: CORK
Neidin,
You make many valid points, but grossly under-representing the airport's catchment area does your argument no favours.
If you look at airports that provide an equal or better service (i.e. Shannon and Dublin), Cork is the nearest airport for just under a million people in counties Cork, Kerry and Waterford and parts of counties Kilkenny, Limerick, Tipperary and Wexford.
Admittedly, you can take the figure down, if you include Kerry or Waterford airport, but they will only have a significant impact on the numbers on London routes.
Tom->If the government directly funded the new terminal (or the debt), it could have a legal impact on the airport's ability to offer marketing incentives (i.e. the Charleroi ruling). The fact that CAA can't afford to is, unfortunately, a different issue.
You make many valid points, but grossly under-representing the airport's catchment area does your argument no favours.
If you look at airports that provide an equal or better service (i.e. Shannon and Dublin), Cork is the nearest airport for just under a million people in counties Cork, Kerry and Waterford and parts of counties Kilkenny, Limerick, Tipperary and Wexford.
Admittedly, you can take the figure down, if you include Kerry or Waterford airport, but they will only have a significant impact on the numbers on London routes.
Tom->If the government directly funded the new terminal (or the debt), it could have a legal impact on the airport's ability to offer marketing incentives (i.e. the Charleroi ruling). The fact that CAA can't afford to is, unfortunately, a different issue.
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Re: CORK
Originally Posted by neidin
.....Forget pie in the sky flights to America off a foggy short runway. Cork needs to worry about bread and butter flights from a small catchment area of just 500,000 pax. Worry about Birmingham Uk and not Birmingham Alabama.......Forget all this rubbish about CAT III. The land is too sloping - it will never happen.........Five different operators over the last 4 years have anounced USA flights, started taking bookings and cancelled them before they started. Seems like a pattern there. If there is such a theoretical demand out there - well these mystery Cork people - don't seem to want to spend the money.
There's a lot of talk about these routes, but when it comes to the crux, no one wants to use them. I think some have yet to get over the fact that Cork is still only a small regional airport, not the next Singapore or Dubai.
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Re: CORK
I don't imagine anyone would claim to be the next Dubai or Singapore. However, an East Coast US route from a regional airport is not that uncommon nowadays. There is a direct service from Belfast to New York; seeing that frequencies on European routes are similar from both cities, it's not unrealistic for people to aspire to one as well.
Most posters have said that they don't expect one in the next couple of years anyway.
Most posters have said that they don't expect one in the next couple of years anyway.
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Re: CORK
Yet again Cork has been given the short end of the stick, by the unions and the government. In case no one @ SNN has noticed NO-ONE wants to fly into a bog in the west of Ireland, on a voluntary basis, EI dont want to do it, and the only reason they have given a commitment is because they need to play the politics game, so that they can get funding for the new long haul fleet, which is badly needed.To gain services SNN has to massively subsidise traffic, at least ORK can pull FR,EI,U2,Malev,CSA AND WW of its own accord.
Aer Lingus has publicly stated, on numerous occaions that Cork has T/A potential for them, that the runway is not an issue, and the main constraint was/is the stopover/fleet availability. T/A from ORK will happen, as much as SNN dosent want it to, because as much as it is put down ORK has a vibrant attractive city only minutes from its door step, which despite the theoritical catchment numbers processes more passengers than SNN could ever do in its own right.(I say this because most historically PAX were forced to use shannon on their way to/from DUB).The majority of PAX embarking @SNN are from ORK hinterland.
It is also duly noted the SNN does not have to pay for its new terminal(built about 5 years back), and has copious numbers of air-bridges, most of which lie idle, as FR don't use airbridges!
Aer Lingus has publicly stated, on numerous occaions that Cork has T/A potential for them, that the runway is not an issue, and the main constraint was/is the stopover/fleet availability. T/A from ORK will happen, as much as SNN dosent want it to, because as much as it is put down ORK has a vibrant attractive city only minutes from its door step, which despite the theoritical catchment numbers processes more passengers than SNN could ever do in its own right.(I say this because most historically PAX were forced to use shannon on their way to/from DUB).The majority of PAX embarking @SNN are from ORK hinterland.
It is also duly noted the SNN does not have to pay for its new terminal(built about 5 years back), and has copious numbers of air-bridges, most of which lie idle, as FR don't use airbridges!
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Re: CORK
Let's face facts, an airport on the side of a hill with no runway expansion capacity that's enveloped in fog half the time with a TA capacity of a 757 (and that's even at a push)with one air-bridge, against a 3200 m runway with excellent infrastucture that will soon be an hours drive from Cork City when roadworks and the Shannon tunnel are completed, that's in the middle of the western seaboard(therefore a far bigger TA catchment area than Cork) and the major scenic areas of Ireland. If only the Shannon lobby group could get up off their arses and compete without resting on their stop over laurels they could practically close Cork down. Cork, on their own bats, have done an excellent job on the development of their european network and fair play, but trying to compete against Shannon as a TA base, it's a no brainer.
Last edited by Handover; 7th Jan 2006 at 21:11.
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Re: CORK
Shannon does not have a larger catchment area than Cork. In fact Cork is far ahead of SNN in
Domestic, UK and European traffic although the gap has narrowed since SNN decided to pay Ryanair to open new routes there. The fact that Ryanair first approached Cork for a deal at the back end of 2004 speaks volumes.
It is true that Shannon has had transatlantic traffic since the end of the flying boat era.
Clare of course was the constituency of Eamon De Valera and so Shannon and the infamous stopover was allowed wreck havoc on Irish Aviation Policy for the last 60 years!
On the other hand Cork was a port City and the airport was for many years seen as a joke by many of the people who should have known better. It was deprived of investment for decades and few people lost any sleep over it by the banks of the Lee.
Maintaining a ferry service to Wales was a far greater political priority for people who wouldn't know a 737 from a double decker bus.
Lets's stop being so negative about transatlantic from Cork. Who would have thought even 10 years ago that the airport could support full service routes to Prague, Budapest , Warsaw, Rome, Berlin and and a host of other UK and Continental Cities.
Cork has proved its critics wrong for many years. JFK and BOS can be made work but we need people with vision to move the airport forward
Shannon too can thrive, why does everyone get so negative about the expansion of transatlantic services out of Ireland. Look at the growth in UK and European business over the last decade. Surely that can be replicated on the atlantic if open skies is introduced.
Domestic, UK and European traffic although the gap has narrowed since SNN decided to pay Ryanair to open new routes there. The fact that Ryanair first approached Cork for a deal at the back end of 2004 speaks volumes.
It is true that Shannon has had transatlantic traffic since the end of the flying boat era.
Clare of course was the constituency of Eamon De Valera and so Shannon and the infamous stopover was allowed wreck havoc on Irish Aviation Policy for the last 60 years!
On the other hand Cork was a port City and the airport was for many years seen as a joke by many of the people who should have known better. It was deprived of investment for decades and few people lost any sleep over it by the banks of the Lee.
Maintaining a ferry service to Wales was a far greater political priority for people who wouldn't know a 737 from a double decker bus.
Lets's stop being so negative about transatlantic from Cork. Who would have thought even 10 years ago that the airport could support full service routes to Prague, Budapest , Warsaw, Rome, Berlin and and a host of other UK and Continental Cities.
Cork has proved its critics wrong for many years. JFK and BOS can be made work but we need people with vision to move the airport forward
Shannon too can thrive, why does everyone get so negative about the expansion of transatlantic services out of Ireland. Look at the growth in UK and European business over the last decade. Surely that can be replicated on the atlantic if open skies is introduced.
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Re: CORK
When it comes to TA catchment area for Cork it has, as opposed to Dublin and Shannon, Waterford, South Kerry, parts of South Tipp and most of Cork(some of N. Cork has easier access to Shannon and this will only increase with the ongoing road developments). Everywhere else it is either equidistant or nearer to one of the other TA gateways. While Shannon's European catchment area is smaller than Cork's( it has all the regional airports to compete against) it's TA one is definitely not.
When you look to Europe there is no other airport that has as small a catchment area with a scheduled TA service. When it comes to an aircraft type while there are A319's and B73-7's plying their trade on the N. Atlantic for Lufthansa and Swiss Airlines these are, to the best of my knowledge, configured in business class only. You'd have to assume that this configuration is the only way they could justify operating this type of aircraft on the Atlantic. The A330 just isn't an option off Cork either with or without cargo. While AL may say that there is TA potential from Cork they don't and will not have an aircraft in the forseeable future( at least not until after the Shannon Tunnel is built) that they can operate from Cork. Basically then you're left with 757's which leaves COA and AA as the most likely choices. From their point of view with an already successful operation in Shannon, an airport with better infrastructure and options ( in terms of being able to use different a/c types, airbridges, immigration preclearance etc.) are they likely to start an operation that will draw from the same pool? While i'd like to think so i really don't see it.
Remember also that half of those people who come into Shannon are American and mostly tourists. Shannon is an ideal base for them as it is halfway between Ireland's major tourist areas of Galway/Mayo and Kerry/ West Cork. Flying into Cork would mean retracing their steps.
All in all Shannon has a lot going for it and with the proposed spur from the Western Rail Corridor and ongoing road developments access to it will become easier. Shannon has rested on it's stop over status for too long without going out and marketing the airport properly. The best thing that could have happened to Shannon is the advent of Open Skies because it will now have to market and justify itself. Fortunately for Shannon it has a lot going for it. It's only a matter of bothering to look at itself.
In the mean time Cork is saddled with this grossly unfair debt burden trying to compete against a rejuvenated Shannon for TA. Time to talk to the politicians methinks to at least level some of the playing pitch.
When you look to Europe there is no other airport that has as small a catchment area with a scheduled TA service. When it comes to an aircraft type while there are A319's and B73-7's plying their trade on the N. Atlantic for Lufthansa and Swiss Airlines these are, to the best of my knowledge, configured in business class only. You'd have to assume that this configuration is the only way they could justify operating this type of aircraft on the Atlantic. The A330 just isn't an option off Cork either with or without cargo. While AL may say that there is TA potential from Cork they don't and will not have an aircraft in the forseeable future( at least not until after the Shannon Tunnel is built) that they can operate from Cork. Basically then you're left with 757's which leaves COA and AA as the most likely choices. From their point of view with an already successful operation in Shannon, an airport with better infrastructure and options ( in terms of being able to use different a/c types, airbridges, immigration preclearance etc.) are they likely to start an operation that will draw from the same pool? While i'd like to think so i really don't see it.
Remember also that half of those people who come into Shannon are American and mostly tourists. Shannon is an ideal base for them as it is halfway between Ireland's major tourist areas of Galway/Mayo and Kerry/ West Cork. Flying into Cork would mean retracing their steps.
All in all Shannon has a lot going for it and with the proposed spur from the Western Rail Corridor and ongoing road developments access to it will become easier. Shannon has rested on it's stop over status for too long without going out and marketing the airport properly. The best thing that could have happened to Shannon is the advent of Open Skies because it will now have to market and justify itself. Fortunately for Shannon it has a lot going for it. It's only a matter of bothering to look at itself.
In the mean time Cork is saddled with this grossly unfair debt burden trying to compete against a rejuvenated Shannon for TA. Time to talk to the politicians methinks to at least level some of the playing pitch.
Last edited by Handover; 8th Jan 2006 at 11:42.
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Re: CORK
Most business travellers based in Cork fly to the US from Cork via Dublin, London
or Amsterdam. Most leisure travellers do the same these days due to the cheap flights to these hubs. On a minority of people are willing to to do the 3 hour return drive from Cork to Shannon in these prosperous times. The short runways at Cork unfortunately will limit transatlantic destinations. It would be great if they looked at extending RWY 25 and made it the primary runway, but whether it is or not, thanks to the open skies deal, transatlanatic services from Cork are inevitable.
or Amsterdam. Most leisure travellers do the same these days due to the cheap flights to these hubs. On a minority of people are willing to to do the 3 hour return drive from Cork to Shannon in these prosperous times. The short runways at Cork unfortunately will limit transatlantic destinations. It would be great if they looked at extending RWY 25 and made it the primary runway, but whether it is or not, thanks to the open skies deal, transatlanatic services from Cork are inevitable.
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Re: CORK
Ireland generally punches above its wait in terms of transatlantic services. The fact that the alternative to a direct flights is to fly east before you fly west helps greatly.
EI tested the Runway at Cork last year for 330 operations but we never heard the results. However the fact that they keep telling their staff and the local community that JFK is a live option must be encouraging.
If the runway is too short why not say so and put the pressure back on the airport authority.
EI tested the Runway at Cork last year for 330 operations but we never heard the results. However the fact that they keep telling their staff and the local community that JFK is a live option must be encouraging.
If the runway is too short why not say so and put the pressure back on the airport authority.
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Re: CORK
Ei have advise their staff at cork, that they do not have ant plans for t/a ex cork for at least a few years if ever. So i wouldn't say the future is that bright for ei t/a services ex ork.
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Re: CORK
Talk in LGW Skal today of a new BA RED aka Citiexpress base at ORK using 737 and 757 kit retired from LGW and LHR. It is Willie's idea! Maybe WW at BA is twice as good for ORK as he was such a fan at EI. ORK-MAN and ORK-BHX were initial routes planned.
I'm not sure if ORK airport will even know about it yet. Could be waffle but we will know this week.
I'm not sure if ORK airport will even know about it yet. Could be waffle but we will know this week.
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Re: CORK
If EI offered transatlantic from Cork, it would hit their yields on their Shannon routes as well as on the Heathrow and Amsterdam routes out of Cork. The only thing that is likely to push EI into offering a transatlantic route from Cork is if they think somebody else is planning to do it.
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Re: CORK
Originally Posted by neidin
Talk in LGW Skal today of a new BA RED aka Citiexpress base at ORK using 737 and 757 kit retired from LGW and LHR. It is Willie's idea! Maybe WW at BA is twice as good for ORK as he was such a fan at EI. ORK-MAN and ORK-BHX were initial routes planned.
I'm not sure if ORK airport will even know about it yet. Could be waffle but we will know this week.
I'm not sure if ORK airport will even know about it yet. Could be waffle but we will know this week.
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Re: CORK
With Open Skies, it doesn't have to be an Irish or an American Airline to do Transatlanctic services ex-Cork. It could be any EU airline such as BA, CSA or Air France.
Maybe Willie has plans for his 757's to head westwards rather than Eastwards ex-Cork
Maybe Willie has plans for his 757's to head westwards rather than Eastwards ex-Cork
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Originally Posted by CCR
With Open Skies, it doesn't have to be an Irish or an American Airline to do Transatlanctic services ex-Cork. It could be any EU airline such as BA, CSA or Air France.
Maybe Willie has plans for his 757's to head westwards rather than Eastwards ex-Cork
Maybe Willie has plans for his 757's to head westwards rather than Eastwards ex-Cork
Although, it would be more for Stansted or Luton rather than Cork, I wonder if ant LoCos who operate A319s might look at transatlantic as an expansion option as European routes become saturated.*
*I know it's a big change to their business model, but they are going to be looking for areas for further expansion come 2010-2012.
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840:
Interesting idea about the LCC A319s long-haul, but I'm not sure. First, I believe there would be a range issue with full load. Second, the economics. Willy Boulter of VS gave this example at the Future of Air Transport conference in London in November: over the winter (he said), LHR-JFK round-trip fares are typically as low as STG199 including taxes. Taxes and surcharges are typically STG113 return, giving a one-way net yield to the airline of STG43. (WB said, if I understood him correctly, that the cash costs of operating the sector - fuel, food and handling - were of the order of STG45 per pax. His argument was thus that it isn't really possible to bring prices any lower as these kinds of fares are already "loss leaders" and only possible because of the higher yields up front.)
OK, so maybe a one-way transatlantic yield of say STG43 is currently the worst case, but clearly extra capacity in the market would drive prevailing yields down rather than up. And if you consider that an LCC will manage typically one transatlantic round-trip per day (or 1.5 if you start scheduling very aggressively and at antisocial times), that's fairly slim revenue pickings per day compared to eight-to-ten short-haul sectors daily (and that's before considering the cost implications of long-haul).
You're right that the LCCs will be looking for areas for expansion with their A319s, but I think long-haul with LCC A319s will be a LONG way down the road.
Interesting idea about the LCC A319s long-haul, but I'm not sure. First, I believe there would be a range issue with full load. Second, the economics. Willy Boulter of VS gave this example at the Future of Air Transport conference in London in November: over the winter (he said), LHR-JFK round-trip fares are typically as low as STG199 including taxes. Taxes and surcharges are typically STG113 return, giving a one-way net yield to the airline of STG43. (WB said, if I understood him correctly, that the cash costs of operating the sector - fuel, food and handling - were of the order of STG45 per pax. His argument was thus that it isn't really possible to bring prices any lower as these kinds of fares are already "loss leaders" and only possible because of the higher yields up front.)
OK, so maybe a one-way transatlantic yield of say STG43 is currently the worst case, but clearly extra capacity in the market would drive prevailing yields down rather than up. And if you consider that an LCC will manage typically one transatlantic round-trip per day (or 1.5 if you start scheduling very aggressively and at antisocial times), that's fairly slim revenue pickings per day compared to eight-to-ten short-haul sectors daily (and that's before considering the cost implications of long-haul).
You're right that the LCCs will be looking for areas for expansion with their A319s, but I think long-haul with LCC A319s will be a LONG way down the road.