CORK
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Re: CORK
Sorry, ORKpilot, but the final FR903/4 is operating on 9th January, 2006 leaving Stansted for Cork at 11.30 am. The Ryanair service from Stansted to Nantes begins on 11th January, 2006 with the trip number of FR4242 departing Stansted at 11.30 am.
Nice shots your uncle took there, Hafez. The new terminal looks smart and the sight of the sole airbridge must be such an object of pride for the management and board of the Cork Airport Authority. I would hazard a guess that there is no new terminal being built anywhere in the western world that is being put together with just one sole airbridge in mind. What a mentality! Surely, the marginal cost of an extra airbridge or two must be tiny in the overall context of 163 million euro?
One airbridge for Cork means so much saved by the DAA which should play nicely into the hands of the boys from the midwest. Should give 'em another good laugh at Cork. Second best again?
Nice shots your uncle took there, Hafez. The new terminal looks smart and the sight of the sole airbridge must be such an object of pride for the management and board of the Cork Airport Authority. I would hazard a guess that there is no new terminal being built anywhere in the western world that is being put together with just one sole airbridge in mind. What a mentality! Surely, the marginal cost of an extra airbridge or two must be tiny in the overall context of 163 million euro?
One airbridge for Cork means so much saved by the DAA which should play nicely into the hands of the boys from the midwest. Should give 'em another good laugh at Cork. Second best again?
Last edited by Tom the Tenor; 2nd Jan 2006 at 13:15.
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Re: CORK
Originally Posted by brian_dromey
If EI do go Boeing hey have plenty 757s lying around, which could make sense for EI to LHR/TFS/ACE, etc, and of course t/a from ORK/SNN/??BFS??
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Re: CORK
Originally Posted by INLAK
There isnt a snowflakes chance in hell of EI operating any 757`s.
A) EI need planes fast, and 777s are hard to come by,
B) Early 787s wont be available, unless Mr Minnion manages to grab some of the ex Qatar slots, neither are there a whole heap of A330s lying around, so EI would settle in the intirim for some 767-2/3/400ER's, those have the same type rating as the 757, so it wouldnt have a huge cost implication, perticuarly if the fleet was based(and compartmentalised) @ SNN.
However if they go airbus(God help them) the're up the creek,as the number of A330/A340s hanging around..for delivery for next winter?? not many as far as I know, although maybe Lufthansa will be returning their (ex swissair/sabena)A332's,although are most of them placed with other carriers tho'?
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Re: CORK
It seems I may have jumped the gun with the first post on this thread. Because of the merger with Virgin Express, SNBA will be operating a number of flights for Virgin Express next year. It looks like Cork will be one of the routes to lose out because of the aircraft being reassigned. AFAIK, it's not a certainty yet, but it is highly likely that this will be the case.
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Re: CORK
i really cannot see EI changing back to boeing,look at the wasted money in converting crews(pilots and engineers) etc etc the list is endless,and the fact that the training to the bigger bus is a short process instead of putting pilots on a totally different type.If rumours are true about the leasing of A340 that does give indication that theyre not going to use boeing.
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Re: CORK
Back on US soil again today and couldnt but notice that I knew at least 40 people from cork on EI 132 from shannon to boston. I have no doubt that a TA from cork would work. Just to give an example, Continental serves both Glasgow and Edinburgh to Ewr using a 757. These two aiports are merely 42 miles apart. When you consider that cork - shannon is spaced more than this.
Do the government even consider cork for US destinations? how do CAA market themself in this regard?? Would the gov not give cork some backing to entice us carriers?? How about some runway improvements, nav aids and ramp space? this is much more important that the new terminal itself, granted it goes hand in hand. Any pm's appreciated.
Do the government even consider cork for US destinations? how do CAA market themself in this regard?? Would the gov not give cork some backing to entice us carriers?? How about some runway improvements, nav aids and ramp space? this is much more important that the new terminal itself, granted it goes hand in hand. Any pm's appreciated.
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Re: CORK
mark_heg
Glasgow is bigger than Cork and Shannon combined. Come to think of it, Edinburgh probably is too.
At the end of the day, 757 service *might* be possible out of ORK but who's going to op it? Not EI, sadly. Those nice people at DL, CO or AA might I suppose.
Glasgow is bigger than Cork and Shannon combined. Come to think of it, Edinburgh probably is too.
At the end of the day, 757 service *might* be possible out of ORK but who's going to op it? Not EI, sadly. Those nice people at DL, CO or AA might I suppose.
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Re: CORK
I've been watching this one simmering along for a while.
A couple of observations:
Smaller aircraft have higher per-seat costs (sorry for stating basics but not all posters seem to get this). Thus the average fare I need to collect to break even on a 757 with (say) 80% load factor is higher than the average fare for breakeven on a 330 with the same load factor.
Continental in weighing up new 757 transatlantic destinations puts great emphasis (understandably) on assessing the business traffic potential. The 757s are 16C/156Y and they aim to have that C cabin three-quarters full day in, day out, as that's where a lot of the profitability comes from. For a network carrier, pure VFR and leisure traffic by itself just doesn't cut it for this size of aircraft on long haul.
The likes of Privatair operate long-haul 737s and A319s on very specific routes: city pairs with high-yield business traffic flows out of proportion to their leisure flows, and for which an all-C-class aircraft makes sense.
The likes of Route Development Fund support are helpful (especially if you're Ryanair and the per-passenger support is a significant fraction of your average yield) but above all what entices carriers is MARKET POTENTIAL. If (for example) CO had one Newark-based long-haul 757 they were seeking to place and it were a toss-up between (say) Cork and (say) Lyon and if (big if) the market sizes were similar and the business traffic were similar and the connecting synergies were similar, then the airport with the better "deal" might shade it, but not otherwise.
Oh, and EI operating 757s? Fractionally less likely than them resurrecting Concorde. Why in God's name would they do so? The only significant advantage for a 757 over an A321 would be its transatlantic capability. It would have to offer two classes of service to be a profitable transatlantic operation (see above re smaller aircraft costs) and therefore wouldn't fit into EI's short-haul operation. So they could incur the colossal costs of introducing one or two of a new type into service (crew training, new engine type, spares holdings, etc.) and all for what? So they can capture the Cork transatlantic passengers they are getting most of already (either via SNN, via DUB, or on the ORK-LHR leg of a Oneworld connection, for which they'll get a reasonable prorate share anyway)? I don't think so. Wet-lease in a 757 from Astraeus or another European operator to do this? Saves the organisational complexity, but it'll cost them, and again, why?
Don't get me wrong. It would be great if there were a profitable way for a carrier to operate a transatlantic out of Cork, but IMHO the combination of market size, competition, and aircraft operating economics means it ain't feasible.
C.
A couple of observations:
Smaller aircraft have higher per-seat costs (sorry for stating basics but not all posters seem to get this). Thus the average fare I need to collect to break even on a 757 with (say) 80% load factor is higher than the average fare for breakeven on a 330 with the same load factor.
Continental in weighing up new 757 transatlantic destinations puts great emphasis (understandably) on assessing the business traffic potential. The 757s are 16C/156Y and they aim to have that C cabin three-quarters full day in, day out, as that's where a lot of the profitability comes from. For a network carrier, pure VFR and leisure traffic by itself just doesn't cut it for this size of aircraft on long haul.
The likes of Privatair operate long-haul 737s and A319s on very specific routes: city pairs with high-yield business traffic flows out of proportion to their leisure flows, and for which an all-C-class aircraft makes sense.
Do the government even consider cork for US destinations? how do CAA market themself in this regard?? Would the gov not give cork some backing to entice us carriers?? How about some runway improvements, nav aids and ramp space? this is much more important that the new terminal itself, granted it goes hand in hand.
Oh, and EI operating 757s? Fractionally less likely than them resurrecting Concorde. Why in God's name would they do so? The only significant advantage for a 757 over an A321 would be its transatlantic capability. It would have to offer two classes of service to be a profitable transatlantic operation (see above re smaller aircraft costs) and therefore wouldn't fit into EI's short-haul operation. So they could incur the colossal costs of introducing one or two of a new type into service (crew training, new engine type, spares holdings, etc.) and all for what? So they can capture the Cork transatlantic passengers they are getting most of already (either via SNN, via DUB, or on the ORK-LHR leg of a Oneworld connection, for which they'll get a reasonable prorate share anyway)? I don't think so. Wet-lease in a 757 from Astraeus or another European operator to do this? Saves the organisational complexity, but it'll cost them, and again, why?
Don't get me wrong. It would be great if there were a profitable way for a carrier to operate a transatlantic out of Cork, but IMHO the combination of market size, competition, and aircraft operating economics means it ain't feasible.
C.
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Re: CORK
There isn't much hope of SNN holding on to AA DL and CO if the previous subscribers analysis is correct. Its catchement area and potential business traffic is smaller than Cork's.
There is also a theory out there that if Cork gets a transatlantic service , it and Shannon will dilute each others high yield business to the point were neither airport will be able to sustain US flights.
Of course it does have the politically inspired promise from EI to maintain a service but post what will that count for?
There is also a theory out there that if Cork gets a transatlantic service , it and Shannon will dilute each others high yield business to the point were neither airport will be able to sustain US flights.
Of course it does have the politically inspired promise from EI to maintain a service but post what will that count for?
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Re: CORK
I don't know if there is less business traffic from the Shannon region. While the overall economy of Cork's catchment area is larger than Shannon's, there is a larger number of US multinationals based in the mid-west.
However, if/when open skies between Europe and the US becomes a reality, I don't know if the standard thinking about business class pax will hold. They used to be the mainstay of European routes; now Europe's most profitable airlines don't offer business class.
That said, I can't see T/A out of Cork before 2008.
I'm not sure there's much sense in planning around a route being flown in a 757. We'll see fewer and fewer of these in the world's skies in the coming decade. It may work as a stopgap, but if the airport's management is serious about attracting T/A traffic, they'll need to plan to accommodate the A350 or B787.
Taking a look at this brochure for the 787; the situation doesn't look too bad for East Coast services in a 787.
http://www.boeing.com/assocproducts/...87brochure.pdf
Realistically, a scheduled service to New York or Boston and some charters to Florida are all that is likely to happen.
However, if/when open skies between Europe and the US becomes a reality, I don't know if the standard thinking about business class pax will hold. They used to be the mainstay of European routes; now Europe's most profitable airlines don't offer business class.
That said, I can't see T/A out of Cork before 2008.
I'm not sure there's much sense in planning around a route being flown in a 757. We'll see fewer and fewer of these in the world's skies in the coming decade. It may work as a stopgap, but if the airport's management is serious about attracting T/A traffic, they'll need to plan to accommodate the A350 or B787.
Taking a look at this brochure for the 787; the situation doesn't look too bad for East Coast services in a 787.
http://www.boeing.com/assocproducts/...87brochure.pdf
Realistically, a scheduled service to New York or Boston and some charters to Florida are all that is likely to happen.
Last edited by 840; 4th Jan 2006 at 13:28.
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Re: CORK
i fully agree with CYRNO ei will never go for b757 across the atlantic.When making the decision for short and medium haul fleet ei looked at the b757 but when it came down to it thet opted for the a321 and the a320. As a number of members have said already t/a will not happen for a few years and personally i cannot see ei operating any t/a in the comming future.
Its time to forget t/a out of cork and start thinking of the shortfalls of the new terminal ie. floor space for carriers , handling agents , car hire etc. How can we all help to make things better for us users of the airport.
Its time to forget t/a out of cork and start thinking of the shortfalls of the new terminal ie. floor space for carriers , handling agents , car hire etc. How can we all help to make things better for us users of the airport.
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Re: CORK
Its a disgrace if they are shortfalls in the new terminal at Cork.
Aer Rianta took over two years designing the new building and consulting users before a sod was turned.
Now we hear about shortage of floor space etc. Of course a week after the worked commence the Minister proposed the demise of Aer Rianta so now we'll never hear their version of events.
Looks as if the existing terminal may come back into the equation before long. It's well capable of handling around 1m pax per year in comfort leaving room for 3 million in the new terminal. Even a link building between the two would allow the 4 existing boarding gates and the present Departure lounge to remain in use.
Aer Rianta took over two years designing the new building and consulting users before a sod was turned.
Now we hear about shortage of floor space etc. Of course a week after the worked commence the Minister proposed the demise of Aer Rianta so now we'll never hear their version of events.
Looks as if the existing terminal may come back into the equation before long. It's well capable of handling around 1m pax per year in comfort leaving room for 3 million in the new terminal. Even a link building between the two would allow the 4 existing boarding gates and the present Departure lounge to remain in use.
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Re: CORK
Hmmm, that would be interesting if the existing terminal was revamped and used for LCC carriers or smaller operations. That would be kind of interesting, it would be nicer to see it be used for passangers or a new cargo area rather than being turned into office space. Other wise it should be knocked to the ground and used for ramp space. Its interesting times ahead, but CAA need to generate revenue, more airlines the better but that comes with better facilities being available. So who knows.
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Re: CORK
Cyrano
Your point with CO is reasonable although they are putting 75s into places you wouldn't normally think of, like BRS. I would agree that there are probably more profitable places in the British Isles for an American airline.
If EI was to get one or two 75s just to operate services ex ORK that would indeed be madness. However, there was a window of opportunity to convert 737 pilots to 757 if a fleet of say 8-10 752 or 753 ETOPS rated a/c were retained to handle SNN services to East Coast US/Canada, to Dublin for connections to West Coast/Dubai and maybe LHR shuttle and the odd bucket/spade. That fleet could operate a ORK-NYC if slots/numbers permitted. The 8 A330s could have then handle increased US frequencies and reduced/eliminated the crazy DUB-SNN sectors. Obviously that time has now passed.
My parents flew SNN-BOS on an AA 757 after Christmas and were happy with their experience, although they did take the upgrade to AA premium econ.
As for the mid-west and multinationals, I imagine Cork's number is not so far behind, given SCI Fermoy, Apple, and the Little Island and Ringaskiddy pharma ops.
Your point with CO is reasonable although they are putting 75s into places you wouldn't normally think of, like BRS. I would agree that there are probably more profitable places in the British Isles for an American airline.
If EI was to get one or two 75s just to operate services ex ORK that would indeed be madness. However, there was a window of opportunity to convert 737 pilots to 757 if a fleet of say 8-10 752 or 753 ETOPS rated a/c were retained to handle SNN services to East Coast US/Canada, to Dublin for connections to West Coast/Dubai and maybe LHR shuttle and the odd bucket/spade. That fleet could operate a ORK-NYC if slots/numbers permitted. The 8 A330s could have then handle increased US frequencies and reduced/eliminated the crazy DUB-SNN sectors. Obviously that time has now passed.
My parents flew SNN-BOS on an AA 757 after Christmas and were happy with their experience, although they did take the upgrade to AA premium econ.
As for the mid-west and multinationals, I imagine Cork's number is not so far behind, given SCI Fermoy, Apple, and the Little Island and Ringaskiddy pharma ops.
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Re: CORK
MarkD:
I agree with you about the business market, and I'd expect that if the Cork Airport Authority were serious about attracting a transatlantic operator they'd be out talking to all the big corporates (Pfizer etc) to gauge how many people travel every month from each company, in what class, to what US points, and using what routing at present. From my experience this is the kind of information which the airlines (understandably) are very keen to have as part of a route evaluation - they can get basic traffic numbers from e.g. MIDT data, but can't necessarily see specific corporates.
I think the list of more profitable destinations in the British Isles for US-based transatlantic 757s is actually starting to diminish (AA have recently decided not to start a Newcastle service after all). However, with the extra few hundred km of range that the new winglets give a 757, more of Europe comes into range from the US East Coast, so from the US carriers' viewpoint Cork, Newcastle et al would now be competing for service with Lyon, Nantes, Hannover, Bergen,...
I agree with you about the business market, and I'd expect that if the Cork Airport Authority were serious about attracting a transatlantic operator they'd be out talking to all the big corporates (Pfizer etc) to gauge how many people travel every month from each company, in what class, to what US points, and using what routing at present. From my experience this is the kind of information which the airlines (understandably) are very keen to have as part of a route evaluation - they can get basic traffic numbers from e.g. MIDT data, but can't necessarily see specific corporates.
I think the list of more profitable destinations in the British Isles for US-based transatlantic 757s is actually starting to diminish (AA have recently decided not to start a Newcastle service after all). However, with the extra few hundred km of range that the new winglets give a 757, more of Europe comes into range from the US East Coast, so from the US carriers' viewpoint Cork, Newcastle et al would now be competing for service with Lyon, Nantes, Hannover, Bergen,...
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The best chance for transatlantic at Cork is for the Cork Airport Authority to talk to Aerlingus as part of an overall package in relation to their Cork operations.
To their credit EI have undertook major expanasion out of Cork in recent years and will have a 4th Airbus there next year.
An A330 operation to JFK even three times a week would attract many customers who presently fly via LHR and AMS as well as those who fly with CO to New Wark from SNN.
However the CAA would have to be generous with their marketing support for such a move.
To their credit EI have undertook major expanasion out of Cork in recent years and will have a 4th Airbus there next year.
An A330 operation to JFK even three times a week would attract many customers who presently fly via LHR and AMS as well as those who fly with CO to New Wark from SNN.
However the CAA would have to be generous with their marketing support for such a move.
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Re: CORK
Originally Posted by ryan2000
Its a disgrace if they are shortfalls in the new terminal at Cork. Aer Rianta took over two years designing the new building and consulting users before a sod was turned.
Originally Posted by MarkD
However, there was a window of opportunity to convert 737 pilots to 757 if a fleet of say 8-10 752 or 753 ETOPS rated a/c were retained to handle SNN services to East Coast US/Canada.......
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Re: CORK
Inlak
(re: the 737 pilots)
The 737s were on the way out and the company were converting pilots to other fleets. Presumably most/all of those pilots were not 320 or 330 rated. Converting from 737-2G to 757 is probably easier than to 320 given sidestick etc. Surely the 330 seats were generally filled from 320 not 737 given the easier conversion? In any case you would be looking at a fleet expansion in that scenario so more for everyone.
(re: the 737 pilots)
The 737s were on the way out and the company were converting pilots to other fleets. Presumably most/all of those pilots were not 320 or 330 rated. Converting from 737-2G to 757 is probably easier than to 320 given sidestick etc. Surely the 330 seats were generally filled from 320 not 737 given the easier conversion? In any case you would be looking at a fleet expansion in that scenario so more for everyone.