MyTravel Redundancies
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Pilot Pete
I don't think the company will be allowed to run the notice period in conjuntion with the 90 days notice period.
The 90 day notice period is a legal requirement whereby the company must enter into negotiations and consultations with employee representatives to ascertain which pilots are to be made redundant.
At this stage the company will not have served notice on anyone, and it is certainly not for them to decide alone as to who will go. It is for the CC to decide if selection is to be based on LIFO (costly in terms of retraining) or whether to use an alternative selection method. My guess is, it will have to go to ballot.
Good luck everyone.
I don't think the company will be allowed to run the notice period in conjuntion with the 90 days notice period.
The 90 day notice period is a legal requirement whereby the company must enter into negotiations and consultations with employee representatives to ascertain which pilots are to be made redundant.
At this stage the company will not have served notice on anyone, and it is certainly not for them to decide alone as to who will go. It is for the CC to decide if selection is to be based on LIFO (costly in terms of retraining) or whether to use an alternative selection method. My guess is, it will have to go to ballot.
Good luck everyone.
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Mr President,
Routes .... BHX - BFS/AMS/GVA in the case of BFS only pulled out to concentrate on more 'productive' DUB .... the route that which never was!!!
As for the VZ prices, well that came from the horses mouth, Mr Jeans who said his cost base even undercut FR's!!!
The new MyL Canary routes on MyT aircraft ... make me laugh, it used to be called "Seat Only" till a few days ago, just a name change.
Spy
You may not like what's being said, then don't read the Pprune and buy yourself a set of ear defenders and blackout sun glasses. My statement is not 'doom and gloom' just an educated statement that was in direct opposition to a previous 'fantasy' statement. If you only want one side of a story maybe you should go into management or the Labour Gov't.
I completely agree with BR about the over capacity in the charter market. With the growth of the low cost airlines and the vailability of the internet you can go cheaper (although not always), on the day you want (not just on Tues or Sat), for the duration you want (not 7, 10 or 14 days) and stay in the hotel or resort you want. This I'm sure is recognised by the financeiers (sp?) and I must, unfortunately, stand by my previous forecast.
I would love to be force to eat my words!
Again IMHO
Routes .... BHX - BFS/AMS/GVA in the case of BFS only pulled out to concentrate on more 'productive' DUB .... the route that which never was!!!
As for the VZ prices, well that came from the horses mouth, Mr Jeans who said his cost base even undercut FR's!!!
The new MyL Canary routes on MyT aircraft ... make me laugh, it used to be called "Seat Only" till a few days ago, just a name change.
Spy
You may not like what's being said, then don't read the Pprune and buy yourself a set of ear defenders and blackout sun glasses. My statement is not 'doom and gloom' just an educated statement that was in direct opposition to a previous 'fantasy' statement. If you only want one side of a story maybe you should go into management or the Labour Gov't.
I completely agree with BR about the over capacity in the charter market. With the growth of the low cost airlines and the vailability of the internet you can go cheaper (although not always), on the day you want (not just on Tues or Sat), for the duration you want (not 7, 10 or 14 days) and stay in the hotel or resort you want. This I'm sure is recognised by the financeiers (sp?) and I must, unfortunately, stand by my previous forecast.
I would love to be force to eat my words!
Again IMHO
Last edited by John Smith; 29th Jul 2004 at 17:38.
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BIG TUDOR
I couldnt agree with you more regards to the over capacity in the uk IT market.
What Mytravel are doing now is a very brave and in deed well needed decision in order to return mytravel to proffitabillity again.
What we are doing now, you will probably see the other major uk ops doing quite soon too.
As someone explained to me, take a 767-300 which holds 326pax.
the price that had been set for the holidays was x amount, alot of tour ops had difficulty in seeling these at those prices, prices come down to which you end up making very little or a loss.
when i looked in apr for the loads in jul/aug...alot of myt flights were 1/2 booked up allready....so take the 767 (326pax), thats 166 seats sold at a decent price....the other 166 seats sold at a lower price when it was announced that we had trouble selling at a decent price, due to competition from other ops.
by slimming the fleet down to a more comfortable size A320/321.
(A330 longhaul)....you can see that the bulk of the plane load would have been sold at a respectable price instead of having to slash prices to compete with the others and to try and get something for the seats rather than nothing.
As an employee of the company...i feel confident in what they are doing and hopefully...this will be the last leg of the bad news.
....its not "DOOM AND GLOOM".... its business and something that is needed to protect the mytravel group... its a way forward for the company and as i say....dont be suprised to find TCX/FCA/BY doing something similar in the near future.
Hope all is well and if i am wrong in what i have said...then shoot me and let me know...which you probably will....but just expressing my comments on what is an open forum.
I do share my sympathy with those that maybe out of a job...but i have been there too (twice in fact) so i can appreciate how unsettling it can be.
Many thx
TJ747
I couldnt agree with you more regards to the over capacity in the uk IT market.
What Mytravel are doing now is a very brave and in deed well needed decision in order to return mytravel to proffitabillity again.
What we are doing now, you will probably see the other major uk ops doing quite soon too.
As someone explained to me, take a 767-300 which holds 326pax.
the price that had been set for the holidays was x amount, alot of tour ops had difficulty in seeling these at those prices, prices come down to which you end up making very little or a loss.
when i looked in apr for the loads in jul/aug...alot of myt flights were 1/2 booked up allready....so take the 767 (326pax), thats 166 seats sold at a decent price....the other 166 seats sold at a lower price when it was announced that we had trouble selling at a decent price, due to competition from other ops.
by slimming the fleet down to a more comfortable size A320/321.
(A330 longhaul)....you can see that the bulk of the plane load would have been sold at a respectable price instead of having to slash prices to compete with the others and to try and get something for the seats rather than nothing.
As an employee of the company...i feel confident in what they are doing and hopefully...this will be the last leg of the bad news.
....its not "DOOM AND GLOOM".... its business and something that is needed to protect the mytravel group... its a way forward for the company and as i say....dont be suprised to find TCX/FCA/BY doing something similar in the near future.
Hope all is well and if i am wrong in what i have said...then shoot me and let me know...which you probably will....but just expressing my comments on what is an open forum.
I do share my sympathy with those that maybe out of a job...but i have been there too (twice in fact) so i can appreciate how unsettling it can be.
Many thx
TJ747
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Good luck to the CC they are in a no win situation. Obviously LIFO should apply but I wonder how junior 330/320 Capts/Fo's would vote if given the chance with so many senior pilots on the Boeing/10 fleet.
They have a tough job ahead best of luck. Airtours/My travel have always been renowned for getting their pound of flesh from their crews just hope they treat those leaving with the respect they deserve.
fax
They have a tough job ahead best of luck. Airtours/My travel have always been renowned for getting their pound of flesh from their crews just hope they treat those leaving with the respect they deserve.
fax
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JS
Actually I did not see much educated opinion in your statements! Just speculation and most of it ill informed. I frankly don't give a dam what you have to say personally, I was to appealing to your humanity and asking you to spare a thought for some of my work mates who are suffering. Clearly you are more interested making a point for your own reasons than considering the feelings of others.
To those who may give your opinions the benefit of some knowledge, don't! JS is just giving his opinion and his assertions regarding the fleet manager and CP were wrong!
Sadly this site has more than it's fair share of those who love to add fuel to any fire and seem to delight in others misfortune!
Actually I did not see much educated opinion in your statements! Just speculation and most of it ill informed. I frankly don't give a dam what you have to say personally, I was to appealing to your humanity and asking you to spare a thought for some of my work mates who are suffering. Clearly you are more interested making a point for your own reasons than considering the feelings of others.
To those who may give your opinions the benefit of some knowledge, don't! JS is just giving his opinion and his assertions regarding the fleet manager and CP were wrong!
Sadly this site has more than it's fair share of those who love to add fuel to any fire and seem to delight in others misfortune!
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John Smith. I think that you are wrong when you assert that MYT did not have good lease deals on their aircraft. A friend of mine is a lawyer who specialises in aircraft leasing deals. He reckons that MYT(Airtours) were very canny and shrewd negotiators. That was never their problem. The problem was that they were the first large company to suffer the effects of overcapacity. Overcapacity is always a voluntary act on the part of managemnet, usually because they have dreams of domination. That dream has been well and truly shattered as it always will, but there is probably a good core business that will survive.
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John Smith
What’s your point regarding Lite dropping BFS/AMS/GVA/DUB? Your initial lying post was that Lite “are going back to the routes they pulled out of before cos they couldn't make money on them”. I challenge you to name which routes Lite are going back to that they pulled out of. If you can’t name them, it wouldn’t hurt to admit you’re wrong.
And a change so that the seats are sold on MyTravelLite.com, which is infinitely more useable than MyTravel.com. And a change that means one-way and destination-originating trips can now be booked. I’m glad you find it amusing that the Group is experimenting with alternative distribution methods for achieving the highest possible yields from its seat-only product. I find it quite reassuring.
What’s your point regarding Lite dropping BFS/AMS/GVA/DUB? Your initial lying post was that Lite “are going back to the routes they pulled out of before cos they couldn't make money on them”. I challenge you to name which routes Lite are going back to that they pulled out of. If you can’t name them, it wouldn’t hurt to admit you’re wrong.
The new MyL Canary routes on MyT aircraft ... make me laugh, it used to be called "Seat Only" till a few days ago, just a name change.
WHEELBARROW
Sorry to burst your bubble, and I don't mean this in a nasty way.
If the company has told you, and it doesn't matter which medium they use, that redundancies are required then they have served notice.
Ask any of the ex BA engineers at MAN who went through this process two years ago.
Good luck all.
Sorry to burst your bubble, and I don't mean this in a nasty way.
If the company has told you, and it doesn't matter which medium they use, that redundancies are required then they have served notice.
Ask any of the ex BA engineers at MAN who went through this process two years ago.
Good luck all.
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Turin
Don't worry about bursting my bubble - just take a look at the current employment legislation - you can find out what you need to know on the Acas website,
If you're MYT - goodluck anyway.
Don't worry about bursting my bubble - just take a look at the current employment legislation - you can find out what you need to know on the Acas website,
If you're MYT - goodluck anyway.
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This will be my last comment on this subject because of the attitude of certain posters.
Mr President.
I'm not lying and don't like to be accused as such. The routes in question are the BHX - BFS/AMS/GVA ... announed on company web site 2 days ago on the 27th. Told by a friend and reconfirmed, maybe they are just finalising the timings before going to press.!!!
I do believe you always were able to book one way, and destination orientated flights on seat only.
Your attitude stinks.
Colgate
Intially the buy and sell back to lease company does generate a cash profit. But this was very quickly overturned by the lease back rates. They are not canny, actually very poor.
Spy
If you don't give a damn about what I say why are you on this forum. And why do you just view the problem through rose tinted specticles,.. maybe your testicles are in the way!!
I notice from a few of you previous posts that you make a few accusations that are controversal about other comapnys. 18th July - that you consider its only a matter of time before eJ or FR have an accident thro fatigue. I think you'll find that your latest FTL is petty similar to eJ. Maybe you should talk to your BHX colleagues about fatigue. Accidents, maybe you should check out your own company - Puerto, EMA, FUN!
Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
You have your opinion and I have mine, they may be different but they are opinions and this is an open forum.
Good night
JS
Mr President.
I'm not lying and don't like to be accused as such. The routes in question are the BHX - BFS/AMS/GVA ... announed on company web site 2 days ago on the 27th. Told by a friend and reconfirmed, maybe they are just finalising the timings before going to press.!!!
I do believe you always were able to book one way, and destination orientated flights on seat only.
Your attitude stinks.
Colgate
Intially the buy and sell back to lease company does generate a cash profit. But this was very quickly overturned by the lease back rates. They are not canny, actually very poor.
Spy
If you don't give a damn about what I say why are you on this forum. And why do you just view the problem through rose tinted specticles,.. maybe your testicles are in the way!!
I notice from a few of you previous posts that you make a few accusations that are controversal about other comapnys. 18th July - that you consider its only a matter of time before eJ or FR have an accident thro fatigue. I think you'll find that your latest FTL is petty similar to eJ. Maybe you should talk to your BHX colleagues about fatigue. Accidents, maybe you should check out your own company - Puerto, EMA, FUN!
Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
You have your opinion and I have mine, they may be different but they are opinions and this is an open forum.
Good night
JS
Last edited by John Smith; 29th Jul 2004 at 21:03.
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John Smith
If MyTravelLite re-launches BHX -BFS/AMS/GVA (excepting the possibility of them selling seats on MYT flights to GVA), I’ll gladly apologise for suggesting you’re lying. I’m sorry if you think my attitude stinks but, at the end of the day, you are peddling these untruths as facts at a time when all of us at MyTravel need to be concentrating on more important matters than someone’s fantasy about dropped Lite routes being re-launched. Maybe in six months, when your last-gasp theory of Lite “just finalising the timings before going to press” is shown to be completely untrue, you’ll be the one gracious enough to apologise.
As for “always being able to book one-way and destination-orientated flights on seat only”, I posted a link to the lovely MyTravel seat-only website in my reply: maybe you should have actually tried it to see.
If MyTravelLite re-launches BHX -BFS/AMS/GVA (excepting the possibility of them selling seats on MYT flights to GVA), I’ll gladly apologise for suggesting you’re lying. I’m sorry if you think my attitude stinks but, at the end of the day, you are peddling these untruths as facts at a time when all of us at MyTravel need to be concentrating on more important matters than someone’s fantasy about dropped Lite routes being re-launched. Maybe in six months, when your last-gasp theory of Lite “just finalising the timings before going to press” is shown to be completely untrue, you’ll be the one gracious enough to apologise.
As for “always being able to book one-way and destination-orientated flights on seat only”, I posted a link to the lovely MyTravel seat-only website in my reply: maybe you should have actually tried it to see.
Last edited by U/S President; 29th Jul 2004 at 21:36.
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I understand that as part of the cost cutting measures, as of next summer, the Airtours B767 based in GLA will be the same aircraft but operated by Excel on behalf of the tour operation.
Why can they do it any better than MyTravel?
Why can they do it any better than MyTravel?
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MYT
I think the Germans have a word for all this... schadenfreude.
LIFO did not work when BA bought Dan Air, the fall out and ill feeling still being felt over ten years later. Senior skippers with 20 years seniority were let go and the junior f/o's in gatwick on the right fleet kept on. This all negotiated with balpa of course.
The airline that took them over employed the sort of mainline Captain who, on retirement, chose to register for unemployment benefit aged 55, job seeker B747, drawing the dole to supplement his pension and rather proudly announced so in the balpa log magazine. Some took their lives, unable to cope with the loss of a second 'family.' It is a harsh business and twas ever so. Every man for himself still seems to work for the directors. Be nimble and good luck.
koi.
LIFO did not work when BA bought Dan Air, the fall out and ill feeling still being felt over ten years later. Senior skippers with 20 years seniority were let go and the junior f/o's in gatwick on the right fleet kept on. This all negotiated with balpa of course.
The airline that took them over employed the sort of mainline Captain who, on retirement, chose to register for unemployment benefit aged 55, job seeker B747, drawing the dole to supplement his pension and rather proudly announced so in the balpa log magazine. Some took their lives, unable to cope with the loss of a second 'family.' It is a harsh business and twas ever so. Every man for himself still seems to work for the directors. Be nimble and good luck.
koi.
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JS
You sound so familiar!? I think most who have posted here now have the measure of you. As for rose tinted glasses clearly you have not really got the point. You have made incorrect statements regarding two managers within MYT and have not had the good grace to accept that. You have been asked to keep the speculation on the future of the company to yourself on this thread in the interests of common decency and respect for those who are affected. We all have our opinions on what will happen next but you have no facts and nor do I, so who are you helping? And what are you trying to achieve?
The reason I don't give a dam about what you have to say is you like so many have no facts, your just stirring up the muck for your own reasons. If you had any facts you would not be posting them here as you would be working for one of the banks that now run MYT. The Banks are the only ones who have any idea what will happen next and even that may not be true at the moment! Some of what you have said may in time come to pass, it may not nothing is certain! I again ask you and others just to show a little consideration for those who are affected at this time and keep your speculation to yourself.
Not that it has anything to do with this thread but as you have raised the issue regarding FTL! I am very pleased if Ryan Air and EJ have adopted a better approach to FTL, shame they did not do it sooner. However, I think you will find our agreement offers more protection than Cap 371, though still not enough for BHX I would agree. The point is the whole low cost market is pushing the limits on FTL and it is only a matter of time before we have a fatigue related incident! The market is changing and CAP371 does not cater for the low cost model. I think most of us who have been involved in this end of the market understand the problems. Now perhaps we can stay on the subject if that’s ok with you, I am more than happy to continue an exchange on FTL on another thread if you want.
The incidents you allude to had nothing to do with FTL, I suggest you to read the accident reports for a full explanation they could happen in any airline at any time but I am sure you know that! If you want to use personal remarks to support your arguments see you on jet blast otherwise grow up!
You sound so familiar!? I think most who have posted here now have the measure of you. As for rose tinted glasses clearly you have not really got the point. You have made incorrect statements regarding two managers within MYT and have not had the good grace to accept that. You have been asked to keep the speculation on the future of the company to yourself on this thread in the interests of common decency and respect for those who are affected. We all have our opinions on what will happen next but you have no facts and nor do I, so who are you helping? And what are you trying to achieve?
The reason I don't give a dam about what you have to say is you like so many have no facts, your just stirring up the muck for your own reasons. If you had any facts you would not be posting them here as you would be working for one of the banks that now run MYT. The Banks are the only ones who have any idea what will happen next and even that may not be true at the moment! Some of what you have said may in time come to pass, it may not nothing is certain! I again ask you and others just to show a little consideration for those who are affected at this time and keep your speculation to yourself.
Not that it has anything to do with this thread but as you have raised the issue regarding FTL! I am very pleased if Ryan Air and EJ have adopted a better approach to FTL, shame they did not do it sooner. However, I think you will find our agreement offers more protection than Cap 371, though still not enough for BHX I would agree. The point is the whole low cost market is pushing the limits on FTL and it is only a matter of time before we have a fatigue related incident! The market is changing and CAP371 does not cater for the low cost model. I think most of us who have been involved in this end of the market understand the problems. Now perhaps we can stay on the subject if that’s ok with you, I am more than happy to continue an exchange on FTL on another thread if you want.
The incidents you allude to had nothing to do with FTL, I suggest you to read the accident reports for a full explanation they could happen in any airline at any time but I am sure you know that! If you want to use personal remarks to support your arguments see you on jet blast otherwise grow up!
Last edited by spy; 30th Jul 2004 at 17:38.
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KOI,
I hope LIFO is employed in MYT otherwise a seniority list is worthless. BALPA has made mistakes over the years but has learnt from it. Some guys will take the shafting BA administered to them in conjunction with BALPA to the grave with them and that is understandable. BALPA suffered considerably as a consequence of the Dan Air fiasco.
You seem conveniently to omit the attempt by Virgin management to axe 747 pilots irrespective of seniority post 9/11. BALPA isn't perfect but without it you are at the mercy of management who would make cutbacks in the cheapest fashion possible.
I hope LIFO is employed in MYT otherwise a seniority list is worthless. BALPA has made mistakes over the years but has learnt from it. Some guys will take the shafting BA administered to them in conjunction with BALPA to the grave with them and that is understandable. BALPA suffered considerably as a consequence of the Dan Air fiasco.
You seem conveniently to omit the attempt by Virgin management to axe 747 pilots irrespective of seniority post 9/11. BALPA isn't perfect but without it you are at the mercy of management who would make cutbacks in the cheapest fashion possible.
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Koi has a point though; LIFO is not necessarily the method MYT are legally obliged to use, which is why they are required to give employees the 90 days notice period. The ball has been legitimately thrown into your employee representatives court!
Your CC have an extremely unpleasant task ahead of them and hopefully their negotiating skills will reduce the level of compulsory redundancies.
Good luck everyone.
Your CC have an extremely unpleasant task ahead of them and hopefully their negotiating skills will reduce the level of compulsory redundancies.
Good luck everyone.
Last edited by wheelbarrow; 30th Jul 2004 at 18:05.
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Does anyone know what started this MyTravel thing off, i mean when it was Airtours everything was plain sailing, things have got worst over the past two years.
I remember the days when it was a very promosing Airtours fleet in the early 90s which had MD83s,757 and A320s, then 10 or so years later, what went wrong.
I remember the days when it was a very promosing Airtours fleet in the early 90s which had MD83s,757 and A320s, then 10 or so years later, what went wrong.
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Everyone is quite correct to quote that there is overcapicity within the UK charter industry. I agree. Whilst taxying out from terminal 2 at MAN yesterday I coudnt help commenting that MYT's problems could only have been made much worse by the numerous TF registered B747's/B767's/B757's and B737's busy at work. These aircraft return year after year, and are employed by the same companies. Sorry. But its not right. Why does the UK Gov never look after its own?
Best of luck to those affected.
Sad times for the UK industry.
Best of luck to those affected.
Sad times for the UK industry.
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Couldn't agree more, with the high number of TF reg A/C at MAN which seem to be mostly crewed by American guys especially the 757's, then there's the Finnair 757 operating for the summer, the Air Malta 320's doing european charter work and of course the skyservice 320's operating at LBA etc, I assume all this is allowed on a summer season capacity basis??
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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Would all the 'spotters' with their "how to run an airline and which routes to serve with shich type of jet" please bog off to their fantasy world forum!
Is it just me or are these forums becoming overrun with 'anoraks' who just think they're the bees knees because they can stick their twopenneth worth into a pilots forum? Every time there is a thread about something to do with an airline and it is specific about pilots and their careers, you get goofy with his binoculars, airband radio and sandwich box putting his ideas about what the airline should do with its fleet and which routes are going to be winners!
This thread is about the redundancies at MYT and the effects on the aircrew. It's not about which routes they should have flown with their Wonderbuses.
This is a professional pilots forum and important threads like this one seem do just end up about spotters fantasy! 
Could the mods please rein in these anoraks and give us back the forums without the nerdy stuff? Please!
Is it just me or are these forums becoming overrun with 'anoraks' who just think they're the bees knees because they can stick their twopenneth worth into a pilots forum? Every time there is a thread about something to do with an airline and it is specific about pilots and their careers, you get goofy with his binoculars, airband radio and sandwich box putting his ideas about what the airline should do with its fleet and which routes are going to be winners!
This thread is about the redundancies at MYT and the effects on the aircrew. It's not about which routes they should have flown with their Wonderbuses.
This is a professional pilots forum and important threads like this one seem do just end up about spotters fantasy! Could the mods please rein in these anoraks and give us back the forums without the nerdy stuff?
Please!