Airways Park in neglect
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Blind, yea I get blinded by the facts.....
Seems the flight ops building is falling down, walked through it on my way into work- seemed to still be standing. I notice all your issues relate to one building- the oldest in the complex. So now we are getting some perspective.
I certainly would not be happy if I was confronted by those kinds of things in my work environment, I would however do something about it. The building maintenance guys can be called on x2111, I have found their response to be prompt and the matter gets sorted quickly- why someone in the flight ops building does not take a little ownership and make the effort to involve the people is something you should raise with your management. Likewise with PC's dial 9000 and within an hour or two a technician will be working on the workstation. if you are not happy with the response call the guys in procurement to address their matter at their management level.
I don’t smoke and therefore never go out into that courtyard- however whenever I’ve walked passed I seen more cabin crew out there than office workers so I don’t think the issue is linked to a particular time of the day but rather the fact that its more noticeable when the cleaners go home- bottom line here is that people should clean up after themselves and not stuff the place up. More bins with some strongly worded signage may be the way to go on this.
On the matter of cost cutting, you are not going to turn the business around on cutting a few cleaning staff- and none have been cut. Again if you are not happy with the state of play then do something about it- last time I checked there were a number of pilots holding management positions so if you cant make the call because of the hours your in the building then get one of them to do it.
Seems the flight ops building is falling down, walked through it on my way into work- seemed to still be standing. I notice all your issues relate to one building- the oldest in the complex. So now we are getting some perspective.
I certainly would not be happy if I was confronted by those kinds of things in my work environment, I would however do something about it. The building maintenance guys can be called on x2111, I have found their response to be prompt and the matter gets sorted quickly- why someone in the flight ops building does not take a little ownership and make the effort to involve the people is something you should raise with your management. Likewise with PC's dial 9000 and within an hour or two a technician will be working on the workstation. if you are not happy with the response call the guys in procurement to address their matter at their management level.
I don’t smoke and therefore never go out into that courtyard- however whenever I’ve walked passed I seen more cabin crew out there than office workers so I don’t think the issue is linked to a particular time of the day but rather the fact that its more noticeable when the cleaners go home- bottom line here is that people should clean up after themselves and not stuff the place up. More bins with some strongly worded signage may be the way to go on this.
On the matter of cost cutting, you are not going to turn the business around on cutting a few cleaning staff- and none have been cut. Again if you are not happy with the state of play then do something about it- last time I checked there were a number of pilots holding management positions so if you cant make the call because of the hours your in the building then get one of them to do it.
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Afriviation and Deskjocky
I am so glad to see that it has come down to the pilots versus the rest of the company, yes Afri....the pilots have taken all the money thats why the company is in Sh
its got nothing to do that our past and present management who could not manage there way out of a wet paper bag......no its the pilots.......you tosser.
Hey Afri, here is an idea for you, maybe Khaya can give back his 6mil salary (without bonus) seeing as some consulting company had to come in and do his job for him
DJ I feel your little attack on management pilots may be unwaranted, maybe if the rest of the company was managed with the efficiency of the "management pilots" the company would not be in the state it is, perhaps you dont quite appreciate what it is management pilots do, more likely you dont understand it. Pilots by nature are perfectionists, we have to be that is why we have the saftey record we do, we can not afford mistakes in our departments, maybe we just notice more than you and the rest of the management team do, when we leave the flight deck after a flight we clean up after ourselves and leave it nice for the next guys would be nice if the rest of the company could do that, how hard is it to pick up your takeaway plate of fried chicken and throw it away when you are done with it.....I suppose its just easyer to leave it where it is and give the cleaners a call, maybe if you and your mates had realised that the company was being run by a bunch or morons a while ago the situation may be different.
I am so glad to see that it has come down to the pilots versus the rest of the company, yes Afri....the pilots have taken all the money thats why the company is in Sh
its got nothing to do that our past and present management who could not manage there way out of a wet paper bag......no its the pilots.......you tosser.Hey Afri, here is an idea for you, maybe Khaya can give back his 6mil salary (without bonus) seeing as some consulting company had to come in and do his job for him
DJ I feel your little attack on management pilots may be unwaranted, maybe if the rest of the company was managed with the efficiency of the "management pilots" the company would not be in the state it is, perhaps you dont quite appreciate what it is management pilots do, more likely you dont understand it. Pilots by nature are perfectionists, we have to be that is why we have the saftey record we do, we can not afford mistakes in our departments, maybe we just notice more than you and the rest of the management team do, when we leave the flight deck after a flight we clean up after ourselves and leave it nice for the next guys would be nice if the rest of the company could do that, how hard is it to pick up your takeaway plate of fried chicken and throw it away when you are done with it.....I suppose its just easyer to leave it where it is and give the cleaners a call, maybe if you and your mates had realised that the company was being run by a bunch or morons a while ago the situation may be different.
Last edited by fluffyfan; 5th Sep 2007 at 10:20.
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Fluffy,
Strange you think its an attack, not at all. Lets clarify:
1- We established that its not the whole of Airways Park we are talking about- just the flight ops building.
2- If something is not working then make a plan to tell someone- lifts, toilets so that it can get fixed. The comment you made about getting someone else to do the fixing up- well can you fix a lift?
3- The rubbish lying around needs to be handled in different fashion- more bins with signage to make people clean up after themselves- don’t you read???
4- Heaven forbid a management pilot gets called into question- which by the way I did not- I merely said that they will be around during office hours to put that call into the maintenance people to get the necessary repairs done.
So cool your jets there Fluffy- the point is don’t just bitch about it- do something!! but then its all just too easy to sit back and blame it on the management morons isn’t it.
So here is the reality check- YOUR future is in the hands of those morons right now- given your views, I doubt you sleep well at night.
Strange you think its an attack, not at all. Lets clarify:
1- We established that its not the whole of Airways Park we are talking about- just the flight ops building.
2- If something is not working then make a plan to tell someone- lifts, toilets so that it can get fixed. The comment you made about getting someone else to do the fixing up- well can you fix a lift?
3- The rubbish lying around needs to be handled in different fashion- more bins with signage to make people clean up after themselves- don’t you read???
4- Heaven forbid a management pilot gets called into question- which by the way I did not- I merely said that they will be around during office hours to put that call into the maintenance people to get the necessary repairs done.
So cool your jets there Fluffy- the point is don’t just bitch about it- do something!! but then its all just too easy to sit back and blame it on the management morons isn’t it.
So here is the reality check- YOUR future is in the hands of those morons right now- given your views, I doubt you sleep well at night.
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Amazing bra - the solution is simple! If you do not like working in or walking in and out of the "Africanized" Jet Park, leave and work where you do not have to see the neglect. Where I work nobody eats chicken feet and "pap" with their hands - that is if you object to this of course!!!
I did not like paying taxes to a government that discriminated against me for being white - so I left and I have not paid a cent to keep them in power and treat me like a second class citizen!!
The solution is simple dear friends. You pay your taxes and you take your chances!
I did not like paying taxes to a government that discriminated against me for being white - so I left and I have not paid a cent to keep them in power and treat me like a second class citizen!!
The solution is simple dear friends. You pay your taxes and you take your chances!
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Actually DJ no.....my future is in my hands, I have the qualifications and papers to decide where I want to be, at present this is where I want to be because believe it or not I am actually quite optemistic......although God knows why with the track record we have in this company and on this continent.
And you are right its is very easy to blame our current woes on management.....its easy because that is where the woes come from, but dont worry I am sure the pilots will come to the table and give something back that was negotiated in lieu of salary, just remember for the pilots this is a 30 year career, for most top management its a quick 5 year stint.........who do you think cares more about the long term viability of this company?
And you are right its is very easy to blame our current woes on management.....its easy because that is where the woes come from, but dont worry I am sure the pilots will come to the table and give something back that was negotiated in lieu of salary, just remember for the pilots this is a 30 year career, for most top management its a quick 5 year stint.........who do you think cares more about the long term viability of this company?
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Actually DJ no.....my future is in my hands, I have the qualifications and papers to decide where I want to be, at present this is where I want to be because believe it or not I am actually quite optemistic......
but dont worry I am sure the pilots will come to the table and give something back that was negotiated in lieu of salary, just remember for the pilots this is a 30 year career,
Now back to the topic.
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AMAZING!!! Racism was never on my mind when posting. But I guess by now we all know Jutnut for his very “head in the sand” approach.
I never realized “Africanized” was an offensive word. How about “Europeanized” or “Westernized”?? Does the Europeans / American’s get upset if we refer to these terms (I am African, been for as long as I can trace my roots, so would not know) Just watched the news and saw an African American football star in Atlanta, who is being accused of running a barbaric dog fighting ring, claiming that in his ancestral culture there is nothing wrong with dog fighting, although it is illegal in the States. Amazing how quick people want to be African when it is convenient. Jetnut if you worked in Africa on Humanitarian relief aid for a period of time you’d know that there is a definite African culture and African work ethic. They have a right to it, but don’t use it only when convenient.
Spacedaddy you said it. Political correctness is an evil, probably the biggest reasons we have to be at the airport hours before departure so that they can be politically correct and search my 3 year old son and grandmother.
Deskjockey, Is operations not the heart of the airline, including the training building?? So it’s only “that old building'" . Sounds like the tail wagging the dog.
Every time I visited S.A.A. as a costumer, either for maintenance on our fleet or buying time on the sim’s I visit these buildings. Surely this is where the other Star Alliance managers spend most of their time when they visit.
I never realized “Africanized” was an offensive word. How about “Europeanized” or “Westernized”?? Does the Europeans / American’s get upset if we refer to these terms (I am African, been for as long as I can trace my roots, so would not know) Just watched the news and saw an African American football star in Atlanta, who is being accused of running a barbaric dog fighting ring, claiming that in his ancestral culture there is nothing wrong with dog fighting, although it is illegal in the States. Amazing how quick people want to be African when it is convenient. Jetnut if you worked in Africa on Humanitarian relief aid for a period of time you’d know that there is a definite African culture and African work ethic. They have a right to it, but don’t use it only when convenient.
Spacedaddy you said it. Political correctness is an evil, probably the biggest reasons we have to be at the airport hours before departure so that they can be politically correct and search my 3 year old son and grandmother.
Deskjockey, Is operations not the heart of the airline, including the training building?? So it’s only “that old building'" . Sounds like the tail wagging the dog.
Every time I visited S.A.A. as a costumer, either for maintenance on our fleet or buying time on the sim’s I visit these buildings. Surely this is where the other Star Alliance managers spend most of their time when they visit.
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suitcase, very true. Middle ground is hard to find- pilots think management are a joke and management think the pilots are raping the company blind. Not a good place to go forward from. Sad but true.
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Africanized ???
Well that sure was a strong reaction JetNut!
I guess that what the fellow was saying is that when one passes through various airline buildings throughout the world, one notices a certain standard of cleanliness and order, as well as service. When one passes through African airline offices, in the main, they are dirty, run down and rather desperately in need of a coat of paint and a wipe down. In fact, this applies to other third world countries as well. Maybe what the fellow meant was third world and in error wrote Africanization.
Now we are all aware that Africa is by no standards a third world continent, indeed, as a resident, one gets somewhat hot under the collar when your home continent is written off as a violent, corrupt, broken down and disease ridden one, but the writing(graffiti?) is on the wall - Airways park is in a disgusting state, chairs broken, floors and walls grubby, and offices in run down state.
Must be the fault of apartheid I guess.
I guess that what the fellow was saying is that when one passes through various airline buildings throughout the world, one notices a certain standard of cleanliness and order, as well as service. When one passes through African airline offices, in the main, they are dirty, run down and rather desperately in need of a coat of paint and a wipe down. In fact, this applies to other third world countries as well. Maybe what the fellow meant was third world and in error wrote Africanization.
Now we are all aware that Africa is by no standards a third world continent, indeed, as a resident, one gets somewhat hot under the collar when your home continent is written off as a violent, corrupt, broken down and disease ridden one, but the writing(graffiti?) is on the wall - Airways park is in a disgusting state, chairs broken, floors and walls grubby, and offices in run down state.
Must be the fault of apartheid I guess.
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AAAh my great friend the desk jockey. I take it that you are in management?
If so please explain to us in plain and simple terms how you think the pilots are raping the company.
I ask this because I (and i'm pretty sure a majority of the pilots) don't think that is the case.
If SAA management was anything close to competent they would see that it is not so and they would come out from behind their closed doors and see the shambles that happens on a daily basis on the line.
They might also be able to see and hear that there are airlines all over the world, who started from a worse position (post 9/11) than SAA and seem to be doing very well - and their pilots are paid in dollars!!!
Now why is that? - and please don't spew the revenue in dollars argument because the factor is not greater than 7.
The MOP (agreed last year) by the company under duress from an arbitrator seems to point out that the pilots are not raping the company and in fact are due an upward adjustment again.
In fact if it were for some competent managers who had a vested interest in this company SAA should be able to compete, especially given all the help, protection and market it gets from the government. (Billions I believe)
Is it not the case that the more the management blames the employees for the airlines woes, the dimmer is the spotlight that should be focused on the inept running of the company. I mean if we have decent management, why do we have to have consultants telling us how to run a business that has been around for 70 plus years?
It is quite clear that the people who have some say in how this airline is run have absolutely no time for it's most valuable resource - it's people. Witness the disregard shown by the company for the dossier compiled by SAAPA for the consultants on how and why the company has lost it's way.
It is time for SAA management to start listening to it's employees - SAA is not about you it is about us.
I WANT TO KNOW HOW YOU THINK I'M RAPING THE COMPANY...of course if that is not your position and only that of your fellow managers then please come out and say so.
If so please explain to us in plain and simple terms how you think the pilots are raping the company.
I ask this because I (and i'm pretty sure a majority of the pilots) don't think that is the case.
If SAA management was anything close to competent they would see that it is not so and they would come out from behind their closed doors and see the shambles that happens on a daily basis on the line.
They might also be able to see and hear that there are airlines all over the world, who started from a worse position (post 9/11) than SAA and seem to be doing very well - and their pilots are paid in dollars!!!
Now why is that? - and please don't spew the revenue in dollars argument because the factor is not greater than 7.
The MOP (agreed last year) by the company under duress from an arbitrator seems to point out that the pilots are not raping the company and in fact are due an upward adjustment again.
In fact if it were for some competent managers who had a vested interest in this company SAA should be able to compete, especially given all the help, protection and market it gets from the government. (Billions I believe)
Is it not the case that the more the management blames the employees for the airlines woes, the dimmer is the spotlight that should be focused on the inept running of the company. I mean if we have decent management, why do we have to have consultants telling us how to run a business that has been around for 70 plus years?
It is quite clear that the people who have some say in how this airline is run have absolutely no time for it's most valuable resource - it's people. Witness the disregard shown by the company for the dossier compiled by SAAPA for the consultants on how and why the company has lost it's way.
It is time for SAA management to start listening to it's employees - SAA is not about you it is about us.
I WANT TO KNOW HOW YOU THINK I'M RAPING THE COMPANY...of course if that is not your position and only that of your fellow managers then please come out and say so.
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Actually that is not quite correct. I don't think the pilot's give a crap about the quantity of the managers provided they do their job and produce results, the quality of said managers is not in the pilot's hands either so we do not feel that is the issue. The issue is accountability and experience.
As far as your second issue goes that is only an issue if you are in management and are trying desperately to divert attention.
If people feel that SAA is in the position it is in because pilot's salaries are too high - then they have very little understanding of the ineptitude that occurs on a daily basis.
SAA management feel that this is the case quite simply to divert attention from the real issue - incompetence and a full scale lack of accountability.
As far as your second issue goes that is only an issue if you are in management and are trying desperately to divert attention.
If people feel that SAA is in the position it is in because pilot's salaries are too high - then they have very little understanding of the ineptitude that occurs on a daily basis.
SAA management feel that this is the case quite simply to divert attention from the real issue - incompetence and a full scale lack of accountability.
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Actuator, the point of my post was that there is a very acrimonious relationship between pilots and management. Why is this news to you???
There are a lot of managers out there who do an excellent days work and get really tired of hearing how incompetent they are from the pilots. Hence the level of respect for pilots from management is non existent. There seems to be 2 sets of rules in this airline- one for the pilots and one for the rest of the company.
Frankly I don’t give a stuff what you earn and if you are worth it or not. The question I ask myself is if you had to start an airline in South Africa from scratch- would I pay pilots/cabin crew/ call centre staff/ management the same salaries as what SAA pays? HELL NO!!
A very nice example here is Mango- look at the pilots- they pay a market related salary- in comparison to the other South African operators (with the exception of SAA) and no shortage of applicants to fill the seats- they don’t even have a pension plan. 400 cv's in the pile- lots of jet drivers in there too. Now if Mango was to go long haul Im sure we could convince some of the crew to move up to a 330 or something similar and I bet we wont have to pay them double to do it either. All the while Emirates and Cathay are paying much more money and yes you will loose crew to them every year, unfortunately that is the reality- the question is how many. Do you go and pay everyone double just to try and stop a few leaving every year? Definitely not. I have no doubt that the South African market can supply suitably qualified pilots well into the future- even with the ones going overseas. Its all about supply and demand.
There are a lot of managers out there who do an excellent days work and get really tired of hearing how incompetent they are from the pilots. Hence the level of respect for pilots from management is non existent. There seems to be 2 sets of rules in this airline- one for the pilots and one for the rest of the company.
Frankly I don’t give a stuff what you earn and if you are worth it or not. The question I ask myself is if you had to start an airline in South Africa from scratch- would I pay pilots/cabin crew/ call centre staff/ management the same salaries as what SAA pays? HELL NO!!
A very nice example here is Mango- look at the pilots- they pay a market related salary- in comparison to the other South African operators (with the exception of SAA) and no shortage of applicants to fill the seats- they don’t even have a pension plan. 400 cv's in the pile- lots of jet drivers in there too. Now if Mango was to go long haul Im sure we could convince some of the crew to move up to a 330 or something similar and I bet we wont have to pay them double to do it either. All the while Emirates and Cathay are paying much more money and yes you will loose crew to them every year, unfortunately that is the reality- the question is how many. Do you go and pay everyone double just to try and stop a few leaving every year? Definitely not. I have no doubt that the South African market can supply suitably qualified pilots well into the future- even with the ones going overseas. Its all about supply and demand.
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Deskjock,
It is not news to me I deal with it every day, it is just no longer important for me to have a harmonious relationship with people who seem intent on ruining my career without acknowledging the part they have played in the demise of a once very proud organisation.
Is it not just a little ironic how the one word that is baffling your brain is the one word that it is all going to hinge upon very shortly.
What you do not seem to grasp is, that more than likely there is not one pilot at Mango who has any intention of sticking around. It is young guys looking for jet time, new captains looking for command time or old guys supplementing their income, either way they are going to leave and that can't be a surprise, even to our myopic management. Those guys are willing to sweat for the company but the company does not even have the ethics to offer a pension plan - nice!
No one is there for the long term, (and how rude of them to expect a career since you don't give a stuff what they earn nor what they are worth... respect man) - you familiar with the term training snake?
I suspect that you and your ilk are going to learn very soon that there is not going to be a tremendous pool of experience from which you will be able to draw and sooner or later something will happen and the not so comfortable passengers will start to question just exactly who is driving.
Perhaps if said managers who are apparently doing a such tremendous job and putting in the hard hours, listened to the ideas coming from the pilots without dismissing them out of hand, the respect might flow the other way too. Unfortunately for you it can hardly be said that the pilots are not doing their job, but if it was the case and I did my job like management have done theirs over the last couple of years, I wouldn't hang around long enough for a manager to tell me I am incompetent - I would know, I would be embarrassed, and I would leave. If only management applied the same principle.
If there are two sets of rules, it is because that is what has been negotiated and agreed upon. Nothing was given to us on a silver platter and if you continue to believe that is why the company is 15 degrees nose down with the thrust stuck in TOGA then you are as ignorant as our boss, I'm sorry to say it but it looks like you are not listening and you are definetly not seeing.
By the way for the second time on this site, the word is LOSE like in the opposite to win or even gain or profit (not surprising the lack of comprehension there...) and not LOOSE which is the opposite of tight!
It is not news to me I deal with it every day, it is just no longer important for me to have a harmonious relationship with people who seem intent on ruining my career without acknowledging the part they have played in the demise of a once very proud organisation.
Is it not just a little ironic how the one word that is baffling your brain is the one word that it is all going to hinge upon very shortly.
What you do not seem to grasp is, that more than likely there is not one pilot at Mango who has any intention of sticking around. It is young guys looking for jet time, new captains looking for command time or old guys supplementing their income, either way they are going to leave and that can't be a surprise, even to our myopic management. Those guys are willing to sweat for the company but the company does not even have the ethics to offer a pension plan - nice!
No one is there for the long term, (and how rude of them to expect a career since you don't give a stuff what they earn nor what they are worth... respect man) - you familiar with the term training snake?
I suspect that you and your ilk are going to learn very soon that there is not going to be a tremendous pool of experience from which you will be able to draw and sooner or later something will happen and the not so comfortable passengers will start to question just exactly who is driving.
Perhaps if said managers who are apparently doing a such tremendous job and putting in the hard hours, listened to the ideas coming from the pilots without dismissing them out of hand, the respect might flow the other way too. Unfortunately for you it can hardly be said that the pilots are not doing their job, but if it was the case and I did my job like management have done theirs over the last couple of years, I wouldn't hang around long enough for a manager to tell me I am incompetent - I would know, I would be embarrassed, and I would leave. If only management applied the same principle.
If there are two sets of rules, it is because that is what has been negotiated and agreed upon. Nothing was given to us on a silver platter and if you continue to believe that is why the company is 15 degrees nose down with the thrust stuck in TOGA then you are as ignorant as our boss, I'm sorry to say it but it looks like you are not listening and you are definetly not seeing.
By the way for the second time on this site, the word is LOSE like in the opposite to win or even gain or profit (not surprising the lack of comprehension there...) and not LOOSE which is the opposite of tight!
Last edited by The Actuator; 6th Sep 2007 at 21:33. Reason: wording
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Deskjock you off the subject here just a tad, but I must respond.
If SAA pilots were on the same package as Mango pilots, it wouldn't be just the SAA pilots leaving, and not just a few!!!!!
Let's step into your ideal world:-
SAA pilots were put on the same package as Mango pilots and SAA started to lose pilots hand over fist (which would happen, they already starting to leave under present conditions!), it stands to reason that obviously SAA would then be viewed as no longer an attractive long term career airline. Then surely any other pilots looking to work themselves into a major airline career would now have no reason to stay in SA. There would not only be SAA pilots leaving for foreign shores, but also those from other local carriers (Its already started!).
No long term national/major airline flying career prospects in SA, why stay?
Which young pilot will want to stay? Go ask any of YOUR young Mango pilots if he intends starting and retiring at a Mango/feeder type airline which SAA would have become!? Nope, I don't think so.
His only alternative; get his minimum training and experience in SA and get into a major carrier offshore ASAP! Don't even waste his time and money (training bonds) in a feeder airline in SA!
Your great addition to the Brain Drain!
Then you get to test the supply in the market:-
Alot of present pilots in SAA and other local carriers came from the Airforce. That source of pilots has all but dried up now.
Costs of private training has increased immensly, what with the costs imposed on general aviation in SA and fuel prices. Throw in conditions in SA, the growth of the Airline Industry around the globe (except SAA), and now the situation you have created of NO long term career prospects in the SA airline industry.
Maybe that big pile of CV's on the desk doesn't look so big anymore?! What now?
I suppose now you do the national norm, lower the requirement standards (Must keep that big pile of CV's you know!) Why not, they say any monkey can fly!
But now the passengers are the test dummies and they don't quite share your monkey theory and they've already started voting with their feet!
Probably lose some market share, especially amongst international passengers? But thats OK, we've seen it before, we'll cut routes, cut costs, restructure, call it a fancy name, not "Bambanani" or "Getting the Basics Right", etc, we've used all those! That will improve the bottom line! It's not our fault, it's those pilots, and their greed for money that has caused all this!
Now, I can see why you in Management! And you are right, it's all about supply and demand!'
If SAA pilots were on the same package as Mango pilots, it wouldn't be just the SAA pilots leaving, and not just a few!!!!!
Let's step into your ideal world:-
SAA pilots were put on the same package as Mango pilots and SAA started to lose pilots hand over fist (which would happen, they already starting to leave under present conditions!), it stands to reason that obviously SAA would then be viewed as no longer an attractive long term career airline. Then surely any other pilots looking to work themselves into a major airline career would now have no reason to stay in SA. There would not only be SAA pilots leaving for foreign shores, but also those from other local carriers (Its already started!).
No long term national/major airline flying career prospects in SA, why stay?
Which young pilot will want to stay? Go ask any of YOUR young Mango pilots if he intends starting and retiring at a Mango/feeder type airline which SAA would have become!? Nope, I don't think so.
His only alternative; get his minimum training and experience in SA and get into a major carrier offshore ASAP! Don't even waste his time and money (training bonds) in a feeder airline in SA!
Your great addition to the Brain Drain!
Then you get to test the supply in the market:-
Alot of present pilots in SAA and other local carriers came from the Airforce. That source of pilots has all but dried up now.
Costs of private training has increased immensly, what with the costs imposed on general aviation in SA and fuel prices. Throw in conditions in SA, the growth of the Airline Industry around the globe (except SAA), and now the situation you have created of NO long term career prospects in the SA airline industry.
Maybe that big pile of CV's on the desk doesn't look so big anymore?! What now?
I suppose now you do the national norm, lower the requirement standards (Must keep that big pile of CV's you know!) Why not, they say any monkey can fly!
But now the passengers are the test dummies and they don't quite share your monkey theory and they've already started voting with their feet!
Probably lose some market share, especially amongst international passengers? But thats OK, we've seen it before, we'll cut routes, cut costs, restructure, call it a fancy name, not "Bambanani" or "Getting the Basics Right", etc, we've used all those! That will improve the bottom line! It's not our fault, it's those pilots, and their greed for money that has caused all this!
Now, I can see why you in Management! And you are right, it's all about supply and demand!'
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This had gotta have turned into the best thread I have seen in AGES!!
Its ticked all the boxes. Racism vs Realism, Pilots vs Management, Staying in SA vs Leaving. Its had it all. Think a snap shot of the state of the industry in 2007.
The 2 best points in the whole thread in my humble opinion are:
Amen to that brother. SAA being subsidised is creating a false economy.
Darn Right!!! Refer to the above. SAA is an AIRLINE, not a FLYING CLUB. I know the statement was sarcasim, but hell, 'many a true word said in jest'.
Lets get the industry out there on a level playing field. No tax payers money. The market will soon set salary levels and conditions.
I know the SAA staff are trying to defend there 'above industry level' salaries, but sadly the airline is BROKE. Time for a reality check. SAA is just 20 yrs behind BA/AF/LH, they have all been thru this.
Its ticked all the boxes. Racism vs Realism, Pilots vs Management, Staying in SA vs Leaving. Its had it all. Think a snap shot of the state of the industry in 2007.
The 2 best points in the whole thread in my humble opinion are:
If SAA was privatised and could afford to pay pilots better than the counrty average without being subsidised by the tax payer nobody would mind.
Now, I can see why you in Management! And you are right, it's all about supply and demand!'
Lets get the industry out there on a level playing field. No tax payers money. The market will soon set salary levels and conditions.
I know the SAA staff are trying to defend there 'above industry level' salaries, but sadly the airline is BROKE. Time for a reality check. SAA is just 20 yrs behind BA/AF/LH, they have all been thru this.
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Airways Park
One of my friends from Atlanta came to visit Doctor's at Airways(Stayed with us) and made a comment... "Its sad to see South Africa becomes more like the rest of Africa in last five Years... my last visit 2002.
made me think......I Don't work for Airways and haven't been to Airways park yet..
made me think......I Don't work for Airways and haven't been to Airways park yet..
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DJ I must say I have had quite a bit of respect for you in the past your arguments seem to be a well balanced, I can not say the same with your 2 recent posts, its disheartening to hear that that is how management feel, I suggest to read The Actuator's comments to you I believe he has put you firmly in your place.
I have always been optimistic about SAA and SA and I finally think the time has come to make a move, I was at work the other day and the talk was very disturbing, if you knew how the pilots felt you and the other management would be worried, you may think you can replace us tommorow with that pile of 400 CV's well maybe you can, nobody is indispensible, but come 2008 or whenever it is that you need to make the 600 odd million difference you may not have 225 pilots left working for you in this company, so I dont think any pilot needs to be worried about retrenchment, the figure of 225 pilots that will possibly be retrenched is quite amusing, because by no steach of the imagination can I see how you plan to crew the aircraft, lets say we have 800 pilots (although it is less) roughly half are F/O's and half are Captains (roughly I know we have more F/O's) so thats about 400 F/O's now you say there is potential to retrench 225 so I can assume that you (management) are threatening to gid rid of half the F/O's if things dont go your way, well there is no way the current airline can run on those numbers, maybe you guys have other plans, maybe this is your battle stratergy to finally get to the pilots.
What you possibly dont know is that a very very large number of your current pilots are making plans to go there own way, I stated this was not true on a previous forum but a few facts have come to my attention. Do you guys have the possible training of 200 - 300 (guess) pilots in your calculations? have you any idea of what that would cost and how long that would take, currently it takes 4 months to train one person to fly a A340 (from start to finish), you guys have finally started something I dont think you can stop, I am currently searching my options and yes it is heartening to know that I can make a move relativley easy, I wonder how easy it will be for you and your fellow managers when you finally destroy the second oldest airline in the world to find new jobs, who would hire anyone in management at SAA, unless its government and corrupt or useless.
I have always been optimistic about SAA and SA and I finally think the time has come to make a move, I was at work the other day and the talk was very disturbing, if you knew how the pilots felt you and the other management would be worried, you may think you can replace us tommorow with that pile of 400 CV's well maybe you can, nobody is indispensible, but come 2008 or whenever it is that you need to make the 600 odd million difference you may not have 225 pilots left working for you in this company, so I dont think any pilot needs to be worried about retrenchment, the figure of 225 pilots that will possibly be retrenched is quite amusing, because by no steach of the imagination can I see how you plan to crew the aircraft, lets say we have 800 pilots (although it is less) roughly half are F/O's and half are Captains (roughly I know we have more F/O's) so thats about 400 F/O's now you say there is potential to retrench 225 so I can assume that you (management) are threatening to gid rid of half the F/O's if things dont go your way, well there is no way the current airline can run on those numbers, maybe you guys have other plans, maybe this is your battle stratergy to finally get to the pilots.
What you possibly dont know is that a very very large number of your current pilots are making plans to go there own way, I stated this was not true on a previous forum but a few facts have come to my attention. Do you guys have the possible training of 200 - 300 (guess) pilots in your calculations? have you any idea of what that would cost and how long that would take, currently it takes 4 months to train one person to fly a A340 (from start to finish), you guys have finally started something I dont think you can stop, I am currently searching my options and yes it is heartening to know that I can make a move relativley easy, I wonder how easy it will be for you and your fellow managers when you finally destroy the second oldest airline in the world to find new jobs, who would hire anyone in management at SAA, unless its government and corrupt or useless.