HappyPilot

Thank God,
for once on these forums we are starting to see a mix of views, its very welcome guys, keep them coming. At least all the moaning and whinging about BEE, black people can actually be challenged. Oh and for an12, one piece of advice, dont think that by kissing ass you are now part of them, you are dancing with one of the most racist group of people on this panet and when their true colours(no pun intended) show, you'll realise what a coconut you've been, white on the inside, black on the outside and most of all, accepted by neither. LJT, oba_idan_amani, Afriviation keep them coming!!!

HP

wheels up

Thought I would make some observations here, since I think the whole thrust of this argument might be construed by some as some as being a white/black racial issue:

Well to some extent it is. But why do Afrivations' posts elicite such passionate response from the white aviators out there? Is it because the white pilots out there have something against black pilots? Is it because white pilots are p*ssed off that black pilots are being fast-tracked at government expense into positions denied to eminently more qualified white pilots?

No, I think not. I have had the opportunity to work with and fly with black pilots in a contract environment. Most of the black guys I have been associated with have been perfectly competent pilots and have integrated seamlessly in all respects. In fact race has never been an issue at all from my observations. We work together, live together, socialise together and learn from each other. I think you will find that most of the white guys out there that fly with black pilots will tell a similar story.

As for the fast-track into the national carrier: Sure us white guys are a bit p%ssed off about that. That said, most of the white pilots out there have accepted it as the political reality, dealt with it and moved on. Most of us don't hold a grudge against the black guys for seizing the opportunities given to them - they would be fools if they didn't - good luck to you!

Then what is it in Afrivations posts that p$sses on our batteries?

I'll tell you what it is: It the old big chip on the shoulder, blame it on apartheid, its all the white man's fault bs. As a black pilot you have never had it so good. Show a modicum of interest in aviation and a bit of commitment and the world is your oyster.

There are many, many white pilots out there that have shown great commitment and dedication, sacrificed a huge amount financially, physically and emotionally, yet are relegated to second rate jobs in some of the toughest flying and living conditions on the continent, if not the planet, due to the colour of their skin. And then here comes Afrivation, from his lofty perch at SAA admonishing us for being racist and not doing enough to transform SA aviaition. Instead of accepting the fantastic opportunties he has been given graciously, he grinds it in and then spits in our faces.

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but THAT is what p$sses me off.

BTW: HP you know jacksh$t! Tarring a group of people with the same brush - that is EXACTLY what you do in your above post. Now thats racism.

mhfourie

Afri, thank you for the figures. The reason I asked that question is as follows:

I have absolutely NOTHING against black pilots. In other words, colour is not an issue to me personally. If you have the passion, the ability and the determination to be a good pilot, then we all talk the same language. SAA is currently employing pilots of colour in order to get the demograpics right. The problem here is that of a population of say roughly 35mil blacks in SA, only 150 out of 3000 commercial pilots are black!! Doesnt it stike you as odd?

What would you say, Afri, is the reason for these low figures?

Are wannabe black pilots discriminated against if they walk into a flying school?

Is it that blacks dont have the money to finance their kid's passion for flying?

Are black kids not exposed to the posibility of becoming a pilot?

Or is it just that becoming a pilot is not on the top of the "to-do-list" of most blacks?

Maybe it is a combination of various factors, but I believe the reason for the low represention lies in the passion for flight....maybe only a few blacks took up what they were "called for in life", i.e flying.

Regardless of what the non-flying types may say, flying is NOT such a glamorous job they make it to be.......UNLESS YOU HAVE A PASSION FOR AEROPLANES!! It is damn hard work and takes determination to become a pilot. And then it is even harder to get a propper job.

I think that is why you got so many responses and critique from mostly the white okes....they had to work hard to get their wings, some holding two jobs to finance their dream just to be told that they are too white to be in the majors and most of the blacks at SAA were handed their wings on a golden platter. Let me emphasize....MOST, not ALL!!

Be greatfull for your achivement, whether you deserved it or not, and be sensitive to us wannabe's out there.

Experience comes with time and time is no-one's slave. Anyone can fly, but when the chips are down, and the s**t is approaching the fan at M.80, then the only thing thats gonna safe your ass, black or white, is EXPERIENCE!!

Fly safe and proud

Afriviation

mhfourie, the history of South Africa has everything to do wih the figures. Black people were oppressed. That means it is was a job simply not open to anyone except a white man. I'm not sure where you come from, but this is a fact everyon e in South Africa knows. Things should have started changing after the 1994 elections and guess what 11 years later no sgnificant change.

Passion is impossible with ignorance. As you would agree, Aviation industry is significantly small in SA and even today not too many black people know about aeroplanes and jobs in Aviation.

Now you can harp all you like about hard work and passion etc, fact remains, most experienced pilots in SA today were bred in the SA Airforce, Was it open for blacks? Negative Sir.

Now you can work hard all you like to earn your wings, blacks need the same opportunities that were given to whites during the years of apartheid and level the playing fields. And that has not happened in SA albeit the numeous complaints and moaning about the very few that have been afforded the opportunity.

The contention that have resulted fom my posts on this thread is because of the reality I have exposed that despite the tough competition that exists in Aviation today, this is only a tip of the iceberg as the majority of the population still has to be accomodated in this wonderful career. off course the truth hurts.

Passion, Hardwork, dedication, commitment and ability to accumulate experience are not unique qualities to white people. Blacks are as capable if the playing fields are level.

We need a rainbow aviation industry in a rainbow nation.

wheels up

PUUULEAAASE!!! What a load of horse-sh*t. I can't name a single SAAF trained pilot amongst my colleagues. I was denied entry to SAAF and SAA due to the colour of my skin - should I demand compensation? We're talking about levelling the playing field in the current generation here, not ancient history - where exactly do we draw the line? I would love to have been a WW2 fighter pilot but was disadvantaged by having been born in 1971 - so unfair! Apartheid died over 15 years ago, the cold war is over, the Berlin wall is no more - deal with it and move on - the rest of the world has.

"Passion is impossible with ignorance. As you would agree, Aviation industry is significantly small in SA and even today not too many black people know about aeroplanes and jobs in Aviation."

Huh??? As a kid I knew nothing about aeroplanes - I had to get off my arse and go and find out for myself. Nobody stoked my passion - it was entirely self inflicted. In fact, my family actively discouraged me from getting involved in commercial aviation (should have listen - you were right dad).

Now you want the passion handed to you on a plate as well. Oh dear, you will never understand...

"Blacks are as capable if the playing fields are level."

What are you blabbering on about??? The field is sloping all the way downhill if you are black and can recognise the subtle differences between a brick outhouse and a Spitfire.

Change comes from within.

Afriviation

How on earth do you forget about history when it shaped the situation in this country, pleaaase. Another classic example of the me me me syndrome. What about us us us (35 million thanks mhfourie)

I'm deeply moved about your history but even more moved about the lack of representitivity in Aviation in our country. You should prepare that testimony for your next interview, it will touch the hardest employer.

wheels up

And the Battle of Trafalgar and the Reformation deeply affected the history of our country as well. So what????? This is 2006.

If you are so touched by the lack of representation in the industry why don't you go out there and do something productive and put something back for a change. When's the last time you took a kid flying, gave a talk at a school, helped a kid build a model plane, taught someone to fly?

I'm interested - what contribution have YOU ever made to this industry??? Nothing I bet.

Afriviation

Thats the government's job, so let them do it and support it and don't ridicule a worthy cause in forums like these. Once again this is not about afriviation it's much bigger than him. He's just a cheeky black boy with a big mouth.

Afriviation

My my my, this is what is being said behind my back. Wish everyone would avoid shooting the messenger.

Quote

Hi,

I hope this doesn't cause a stir. If somebody has a problem with this please remove from this forum

I'm also a member on PPRUNE and this is currently a hot topic.
I don't know what this guy has been smoking.

I really hope that this is not the direction we are heading in.
It will be a really sad day if it is

Here is the link http://www.pprune.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=37

Kind Regards
Felix

Looks like a troll with a chip on his shoulder. It appears he wants all pilots of a certain pigmentation who've worked to get where they are to just roll over in favour of another group. Don't think he realises that a lot of those guys have to work outside SA by necessity caused by discriminatory policies, not by choice...

I guess this would hold true in this case...

A man will fight for many things... Glory, his country, the glistening tear on a child's cheek........

But personally, I'd mud wrestle my mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn

That dude is a freekin idiot - Just read that thread but I aint gonn take part in such crap

Felix,

Interesting link !!

What can I say other than "Boo Hoo"
_________________
A Smith & Wesson beats five Aces

RED POST sums it up very well.....
_________________
My soul is in the sky." -- William Shakespeare

Snoops

very sad individual indeed!!!!

I wonder with how many hours he got into SAA Chip on his shoulder is a freaken understatement!!!!
_________________
Gunfree South Africa
Suck my Glock

When issues of race rear their head(heads) it's amazing how quickly logic goes out the window. I wonder if the original pPrune poster has looked at the SAA cadet scheme and asked how a pale male gets into it.I support advancement, even when it is discriminating against my own, simply because of the injustices of the past. But I get seriously peed off when a blind fool(not colour blind as I'd like us all to be) uses his colour to send all logic out the door. Sadly, though, a few of us are responding with emotion only as well.

Rod Smith

What I'd have liked to see is not a single response from anyone... Can you imagine how pissed off he'd be then
_________________
Gravity sucks.

Unqoute

Poor Afri, how did you get yourself into this mess? Lesson 1 dont ruffle feathers. You will be punished. Well a lot has been said, fact remains Transformation in SA Aviation is going nowhere slowly.

wheels up

I tend to agree that Afriviation:

+ Is a troll
+ Is probably lilly white
+ Has no friends
+ Probably lives in Europe
+ Most likely has never piloted a plane in his life.

Checking out.....this has got boring.

Flyer14

Here's my take on this. Firstly, I am a pilot and I am a non-white. Afrivation I think that you really need to stop complaining. Are there some rascists white pilots out there - yes, I've encountered a few, but in my view you are rascist to. In my experience I have found that non-white are not as interested in aviation as other race groups. I talk of mainly well to do non-whites who got all the exposure that you say is missing. My view is that if you are interested in flying you will make an effort to find out more, that's what I did. I mean I started building model aircraft at the age of 7, buying aircraft magazines and such. Please don't bull dust me and say that apartheid prevented non-whites from buying magazines anyway this country has been 'free' for over ten years. I met an SAA Cadet once who told me that he actually was looking for the advert for air stewards but found the Cadet Pilot ad instead and applied there - is that the kind of thing you want? Your moaning about non-whites not getting jobs in charter is a fantasy. There are plenty of jobs if you are willing to start where everyone else starts at the bottom - thats doing the admin, pushing aricraft around and instructing - there are so few non-white instructors out there. You need to learn that normal people don't go from 200 hrs to an A340 overnight. The moment you force an aviation career down someones throat that's when people who don't deserve to wash a plane, start flying them! So if I where you I'd check that attitude at the door and start behaving like someone who deserves that blue or green license that appears to have been handed to you without much thought. Anyway correct me if I am wrong but white, indian and coloured people are South Africans too. Call me a coconut, banana, whatever fruit or vegetable you desire but you clearly have the wrong attitude for this calling, that's right it's not a job it's a calling! Wake up!

Afriviation

A reflection by a pale person

Quote

How many times have you heard somebody say “ I am not a racist but,…..”. Fill in the blanks with some mildly racist comment. Examples would be “Those people expect too much” or “They are simply too sensitive”. Frequently I wish I could revise that statement to “I am a racist and ….”. At least it would be honest.

When I was about 8, I became best friends with a girl in my class. We sat next to each other in the classroom and spent many hours playing and chatting. At home I frequently talked about my friend. Several months later, I invited my friend for lunch at my house. We had a wonderful time, playing with dolls and watching T.V. After my friend was picked up by her mom to go home, my mom asked me “How come you never mentioned that your best friend is black?”. I paused, I had no answer, I never noticed that my friend had darker skin than myself. Until my mother mentioned it, it never occurred to me that my friend was placed in a different category than myself. I simply never thought about it. At age 8 I was completely oblivious to people’s race. I can honestly say that at that point I was not a racist because I didn’t notice peoples race. I reacted to people solely based on their personality and behavior. I am not so innocent now. Something happened while growing up.




Don’t get me wrong. On an intellectual level I fully believe that all people are equal and that everybody is equally entitled to all the good things in life. However every once in while a small subtle incident happens where I have to question myself. For example, few years ago I was in San Francisco on a business trip. I was walking around the down town area. A group of 4 young black men where walking past me. They were chatting to each other and laughing about something. I immediately clutched hard onto my hand bag, as if I was afraid they would try to steal it. Later, when I went to my hotel room, I kept thinking “Why did I do that?”. “Would I have behaved the same way if they were white?”. “Did they notice my behavior? Were they offended?”. I know I would be offended if somebody reacted that way to my mere presence. While this is not the kind of racism practiced by the Ku Klux Klan or neo-nazi groups, it is racist nevertheless. It is a more subtle kind of racism. It is subconscious; I don’t do these things on purpose or with the intention to hurt somebody. It just seems to happen and afterwards I ask myself “Why did I do that?”. I call it subconscious racism. When you behave just subtly different in reaction to somebody’s race.




In the Nelson Mandela’s autobiography “
Long Walk To Freedom

”, there is a story similar to mine. Nelson Mandela was traveling all over Africa attempting to raise money and support for the ANC. He was at the airport about to travel from one destination to another; when the pilot and crew arrived. The pilot was black. Nelson Mandela was struck with a panic attack, he was afraid that the airplane would crash. Intellectually he understood that a black person could do any job as well as a white person, its just that in South Africa he had never seen a black pilot before. Nelson Mandela forces himself to board the airplane despite his fear, he arrives at his destination safely. I reached the conclusion that when you grow up in a racist society some of it seeps into your psyche; no matter how much you appose it. Like pollution in the air, it does end up in your lungs.



Rian Malan, is another South African struggling with his own racism. In his book “
My Traitor's Heart

”, he recounts many moving stories. One in particular about a white woman who one day finds a bleeding black man in her own backyard. She takes him to hospital, but the staff at the emergency department ignore the injured man simply because he is black. The woman yells at them and abuses them until they provide him with adequate treatment. The story travels all over town and from then on, whenever a black person is in need of medical care, they show up at her door step, she becomes the ambulance service for the black community despite the fact that she has no paramedic training. She spends many evenings driving bleeding people to the ER and yelling at the staff there to urge them to provide care.





It seems that you can’t ignore racism, you have to face it head on, as long as it is part of our society it is poising all of us. As for me, I haven’t owned a TV set for years, I believe that my TV set was a source of negative stereo types planted in my head. I focus hard on treating each person as an individual.



“I am a racist, but I want to change.”
unquote

I rest my case, Afriviation.

4HolerPoler

Thread closed - I may reconsider; please feel free to motivate. Afriviation has taken what he started, as a racially toned, aviation topic to his more recent posts where there is no reference or relevance to aviation. Go find a soap-box somewhere else; this is an aviation site & your motives no longer have any bearing in that regard.

4HP